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 kosmic_charlie
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 Do Psychedilics Lie? 
#2661231 - 05/10/04 07:55 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe I take the psychedlic experience with too much faith. How many of you people believe that what you learn from psychedelics (mainly LSD and mushrooms) is the way is? I mean there are so many ideas that have been forced into my brain from LSD but then after the trip I wonder if I really did reach some great catharsis and see the universe for how it really is and have this restored belief in a higher force, or was it all a hallucination? Maybe some examples will help reiterate what I'm talking about.
On my last acid trip I felt like I met my maker. I was shown things so clearly. I believed the idea of fate with all my heart. Normally I would reject this idea but at the time it seemed fact. I believed that I could see into my future and that certain things were going to happen in my life. I was so convinced of it, that is until the trip was over. But it seemed so real at the time. But now, several months after the trip, I don't see these prophesies coming true. But maybe I'm just in hurry for these to come true. I also learned that it is not worth the effort to be in a hurry for things to happen because everything will fall into place in the end. But is that just my brain telling myself that for my own comfort? It just seems like the ideas that get fed to you seem so real at the moment of a heavy psychedlic experience and it's sometimes difficult to not beleive them even after the experience.
Having full belief in a higher force is perhaps a better example that is easier to explain in writing. On heavy acid trips I have reached points where I had 100% belief in a higher force or God or whatever you want to call it. During the trip this idea was simply fact. But then after the trip I tend to think that maybe it was just a hallucination. But at the time of the trip, it wasn't even debatable because I was practically staring into God's eyes. But then after the trip I almost feel like I was cheated into believing something. After the trip it's like "Oh yeah, this is how it really is, nevermind."
I just can't separate hallucination from reality when under the heavy influence of a psychedelic. I just wonder if these drugs simply effect our brain chemistry causing us to have these divinations and that it's just a matter of brain chemistry? Or do these psychedelics somehow show us some truth about the universe? At this point in my psychedelic career I can honstly say I don't know. Maybe I'm still living in a fantasy world and I'll some day realize that these drugs simply alter our brain chemistry and nothing "divine" or "supernatural" is happening. Or maybe some day I'll have a solid belief in what I learn from these drugs. What do you all think?
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 bert
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So what if it's just changing our brain chemistry. The question is whether or not that chemical change in itself is meaningful. Based on how many ancient cultures separated by thousands of miles and oceans all came across hallucinogens and find them so important must be some indicator that the experience is not totally random (whatever randomness is...)
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Zahid
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Do people lie to themselves, is a more appropriate question.
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kosmic_charlie
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661293 - 05/10/04 08:19 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I guess then that leads to the question of how much does our brain chemistry have to do with our consciousness in realtion to the idea of a soul? Just how important are the changes in our brain chemistry and do these changes really give us insight into the physical world as we know it? Maybe that it the question I'm ultimately seeking.
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Goin' where the water tastes like wine.
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kosmic_charlie
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Zahid]
#2661295 - 05/10/04 08:21 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do people lie to themselves, is a more appropriate question.
Yes that is a good question. Do people lie to themselves or subconsciously fabricate ideas just to make them happy or simply optimistic. I may be guilty of that.
I can't help but think of the movie Memento in light of your post Zahid.
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silversoul7
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I don't think psychedelics "lie" any more than any other state of mind. Sure, you could be led on the wrong path by a psychedelic experience, but the same could be said for a sober experience. I don't think that either should be assumed to be necessarily true. Psychedelics are a way of exploring a reality different from the one you know. This reality may or may not necessarily be true. In my experience, the reality I'm presented with on psychedelics does not conflict with my sober reality, but instead merely ammends it. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe such revelations, though I am prepared to abandon such beliefs if confronted with convincing evidence to the contrary.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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bert
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Well, I think our consciousness is a direct result of physical causes. There is no reason to believe otherwise at this point. Psychedelics do lie in the sense that they alter our perception in a manner that is incongruent with our objective physical surroundings, you can't fly no matter how much you believe you can while tripping. But I think the 'truth' in a psychedelic experience, if there is any, would be purely in our mind.
Does that make it any less important or wrong? I don't think so. In fact, while tripping I am acutely aware of patterns and information that are latent within my physical surrounding but I have no access to normally. For instance, seeing complex imagery appear out of stucco. Going back later I can refind those same images, so I know the physical correspondence of it actually exists. You'd be surprised at how little we actually perceive moment-to-moment of our surroundings and of our own brain processes. I think psychedelics make you hyper aware of reality, bringing you closer to 'what is actually happening'.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
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i like your quote!
"sometimes we live no particular way but our own."
Zahid brings up a great point! so from there...
how do yoiu know when you are lying to yourself?
what do you use?
how do you know that one way is the only way?
how do you know that the ways we have defined god are the only ones that exist?
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.
The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom. Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things. In the process, they've made me a happier person. If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phishgrrl
Walking in thetall trees...
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.
It totally depends on set and setting...if the set (the person taking the drug) is a person naturally inclined to look for the philosophical, or spiritual, and if they are in a setting condusive to that- say, in a natural surrounding posing no threat, they will likely learn something very important through the chemical interaction of their mind and the drug....
I believe that natural plant derived drugs are here- as a gift from the Earth to help us learn about life.
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Once in awhile you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right...
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zee_werp
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661486 - 05/10/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Good words there silversoul7 and bert...I agree with you guys. Psychedelics to me act as a 'life enhancer'. Just like what Huxley was taking about with the Cerebral Reducing Valve. The process of the trip opens up your doors of perception a lot more than in 'ordinary' waking consciousness.
So, to ask weather psychedelics 'lie' I think is quite an ambiguous question. I would say that I have certainly caught my mind playing some 'tricks' on me under the influence of psychedelics, which I perceive as sort of a test, something that keeps you on your toes.
As for your amazing revelations dissapearing after the trip wears off, I don't think that this is a case of the trip giving you an unrealistic perception of reality, its just there are a lot more connections being made than what your non-tripping consciousness is used to.
I used to find the same thing as you...the real 'flesh on the bones' of a trip would dissapear as it wore off, leaving me with only the memory of feeling that way when I was tripping. However, as I got more experience with psychedelics, I began to focus more on the come-down and re-integration phase. This has resulted in many of the psychedelic revelations attained under the influence of LSD, shrooms and cactus, remaining in my day to day consciousness, which I can tell you is simply amazing, well worth the efforts of the re-integration phase.
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Phishgrrl
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661490 - 05/10/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
I don't think psychedelics "lie" any more than any other state of mind. Sure, you could be led on the wrong path by a psychedelic experience, but the same could be said for a sober experience. I don't think that either should be assumed to be necessarily true. Psychedelics are a way of exploring a reality different from the
I totally agree....
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Once in awhile you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right...
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Phishgrrl
Walking in thetall trees...
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Quote:
kosmic_charlie said:
Maybe I take the psychedlic experience with too much faith. How many of you people believe that what you learn from psychedelics (mainly LSD and mushrooms) is the way is? I mean there are so many ideas that have been forced into my brain from LSD but then after the trip I wonder if I really did reach some great catharsis and see the universe for how it really is and have this restored belief in a higher force, or was it all a hallucination?
Hmmm...I have thought about this a lot...even without drugs i have learned to take my "intuition" with a grain of salt  . I do think it is a good way to get to know yourself...you definitely can get lost in too much busyness- and i think a lot of that could go....really, imo, the best thing is to have a healthy all around life to begin with, and entheogens can play such an important part in that....components such as meditation practice in daily life, and a good part of ones life devoted to studying things of a "higher order", a healthy diet, and most importantly, imo- living a life of loving-kindness- as the Buddhists would call it...then you are starting with a somewhat cleaner slate on a trip....if one is normally "muddled" or living in a heavily karmic way....their trip could be more reflective of that....so perhaps the psychedelic often plays the part of a mirror. When i have "seen my maker" i think what has happened is that i clothed that energy in a mantle of my own making- does that make sense? So in other words, it was real, but the "visual part" was all my own creation....omg i'm totally rambling and just exploring my ideas verbally for the first time in awhile so i hope it makes a little sense at least...anyway....i really like this thread... 
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Once in awhile you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right...
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661533 - 05/10/04 11:52 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom.
I believe that wisdom is factual in nature.
Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?
Quote:
Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things.
Explain how.
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In the process, they've made me a happier person.
By what mechanism?
Quote:
If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.
Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
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Do you ever wonder if your lying to your self? Just delluding yourself, from trying to have to face the "pain", or reality? Maybe were just not used to the feeling.
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What?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom.
I believe that wisdom is factual in nature.
Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?
Certainly.
Quote:
Quote:
Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things.
Explain how.
After I tripped on 5 grams of shrooms and had this reality slip from my grasp, I came down and had never felt so glad to be in this world. I realized how wonderful it is to be alive and that all my complaining about how things didn't go my way was a bullshit ego game, and that I needed to learn to chill and enjoy the world as it is(see my title, which I picked after this trip). It was insight on the level often found in people who have had near-death experiences. Now, I admit I have at times slipped back into my old ways, but I always make a point to remind myself of the lessons learned from that trip, and then I'm able to chill and cut the bullshit.
Quote:
Quote:
In the process, they've made me a happier person.
By what mechanism?
See above
Quote:
Quote:
If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.
Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.
Hence the "if" part of my statement.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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bert
bodhi
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Phen, all knowledge is personal in nature(I mean nature as in kind, not the universe). For instance, I had a realization that I was unfair in my relationship with my dad while tripping. Normally, this probably would never have happened and I would still be at odds with him. So no...psychedelics don't neccessarily 'create' anything so much as it brings to the surface of your consciousness information that was pre-existing.
Wisdom is just a romantic term to describe information. Everything that exists, exists as information to us. Psychedelics only affect physical reality insofar as they actually physically interact with our neurons and receptors. Of course psychedelics can impart information to us. It's not objectively real, but it has subjective weight and it can positively affect your actions in the future even if it is not objectively real. Although even when you are sober, you are not perceiving reality as it actually exists. So we are constantly being lied to. A bat can hear much better than us, dogs can perceive the actual nature of scent molecules to a much greater degree than humans. It's even debatable if there is an objective reality.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661591 - 05/11/04 12:19 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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why wouldn't psychedelics provide us the opportunity to some wisdom? part of knowledge is having a different perspective to go by.. wasn't it socrates who said the wise person is the person who knows they know nothing at all?
if you have the will and the drive to learn, then having a different perspective definitly will bring some sort of knowledge to the table.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661689 - 05/11/04 01:11 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?
Certainly.
Please do so.
Quote:
I realized how wonderful it is to be alive and that all my complaining about how things didn't go my way was a bullshit ego game . . .
(more "ego game" rhetoric, I see)
Your narrative does not demonstrate that anything was learned unless you can demonstrate that your complaining actually was an "ego game"; you also failed to provide evidence that the psychedelic experience caused this. Your perception of events indicates that you believe this is self-evident, but wouldn't you already have knowledge of the nature of your "ego game" before the experience?
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By what mechanism?
See above
That is not a mechanism.
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Quote:
If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.
Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.
Hence the "if" part of my statement.
Hence the "maybe" part of my statement.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661697 - 05/11/04 01:17 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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bert said: It's even debatable if there is an objective reality.
No, it's not debatable. Having a debate about it requires that two existing parties can exchange information. If there were no objective reality, then two humans could not debate.
Thus, when debating any subject, I consider it understood that we are discussing objective phenomena. There would be no such thng as a meaningful debate about non-objective phenomena because in a debate we have to be able to exchange information that we both agree on.
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silversoul7
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?
Certainly.
Please do so.
I just did.
Quote:
Quote:
I realized how wonderful it is to be alive and that all my complaining about how things didn't go my way was a bullshit ego game . . .
(more "ego game" rhetoric, I see)
Your narrative does not demonstrate that anything was learned unless you can demonstrate that your complaining actually was an "ego game";
Bullshit. I learned how to be happy. How the fuck is that not learning anything?
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you also failed to provide evidence that the psychedelic experience caused this.
Yes I did. It was caused by returning to reality from my insane trip. If you think this I didn't provide evidence that it was my psychedelic experience which taught me this, I'd like to see you prove that your teachers at school taught you anything.
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Your perception of events indicates that you believe this is self-evident, but wouldn't you already have knowledge of the nature of your "ego game" before the experience?
What makes you say that? I simply realized that the unhappiness was coming from inside me, what was not something I had realized before.
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Quote:
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By what mechanism?
See above
That is not a mechanism.
Then why don't you define mechanism for me?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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just to throw my two cents in. as far as i can tell, the brain can percieve whatever it wants/is programmed to.
for the sake of arguement, i'm going to say they is an objective reality/higher reality/whatever you want to call it. there is a place where there are things to percieve in any case.
as i understand it, you can percieve these things that are really there any way you like, using any description you like. you can block out whatever you want, and you can embelish whatever you want. you can turn a mouse (real thing) into a tiger (your perception) and its all pretty much allowed.
psychedelics defintely show you some of the higher order real things that are there, but its more or less up to you to describe it to yourself. or rahter they CAN show you. they can also show you higher order bullshit of your own creation (usually for some subconscious purpose). whats neat is this imaginary higher order can actually synch up with real higher order! woot, make your own reality time.
in other words, yes psychedelics lie, but only because the truth is... somewhere else...
also i might add, i think to get a real education from psychedelics you have to put real energy into it, just as you would anything else. since you're still having to do "work" and give up your old self for a new self its not really a short cut, just one path among many
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Edited by truekimbo2 (05/11/04 01:32 AM)
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
bert said: It's even debatable if there is an objective reality.
No, it's not debatable. Having a debate about it requires that two existing parties can exchange information. If there were no objective reality, then two humans could not debate.
Thus, when debating any subject, I consider it understood that we are discussing objective phenomena. There would be no such thng as a meaningful debate about non-objective phenomena because in a debate we have to be able to exchange information that we both agree on.
What about the rest of my post? What exactly is it that you are trying to establish? That psychedelics are an ineffective tool in procuring knowledge?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.
You said the psychedelic experience does not convey any value. Well, the psychedelic experience is subjective. Value is also subjective. The evidence is in the way it alters our long term perception of reality and how we interact with it. Can you honestly tell me you've never gained anything of value from the use of psychedelics?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661760 - 05/11/04 01:52 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bert said:
What about the rest of my post?
Quote:
Everything that exists, exists as information to us. Psychedelics only affect physical reality insofar as they actually physically interact with our neurons and receptors.
I agree that psychedelics are known to interact with us in this manner. I have not seen anything from this level of understanding that leads me to believe that psychedelics can allow one greater access to or accumulation of information.
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Of course psychedelics can impart information to us. It's not objectively real, but it has subjective weight and it can positively affect your actions in the future even if it is not objectively real.
Information is real. Information can be measured and given a value.
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What exactly is it that you are trying to establish?
I've given my opinion. I do not believe that there is any evidence that psychedelics can 'teach.' I think that anyone who believes that psychedelics do 'teach' believes that on the basis of faith, rather than evidence.
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That psychedelics are an ineffective tool in procuring knowledge?
No, just that it has not been demonstrated whether or not they are a useful tool for procuring knowledge.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661769 - 05/11/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bert said:
Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.
You said the psychedelic experience does not convey any value.
No, I did not.
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Well, the psychedelic experience is subjective. Value is also subjective.
By "value" I merely meant 'information' or 'knowledge.'
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The evidence is in the way it alters our long term perception of reality and how we interact with it.
Altered perception is not evidence of having learned anything.
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Can you honestly tell me you've never gained anything of value from the use of psychedelics?
Not in the sense of "value" that I meant. No, I don't believe that I have ever learned anything from using psychedelic drugs.
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
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Maybe 'teach' is the wrong word. Because the information is coming from within you. Take for instance, looking at a patch of grass while tripping. You might see faces, ducks, boats, etc. manifest out of the patterns in the grass. Those patterns were already there, created by minute nuances in shading and texture. Normally you wouldn't see those patterns in such great detail. Later on I have been able to go back and recognize why I saw certain patterns emerge out of a specific location. Does that mean that mushrooms 'taught' me anything? Not really, but they facilitated my subjective, yet meaningful (to me) acquisition of previously inaccessible data.
Edit: Ok I misunderstood you before. What entails 'learning' to you and how does it differ from an altered perception? Even the slightest alteration in perception even by caffeine, rise in blood pressure, anything, or even the absence of altered perception still means you are 'learning'. Just by looking at my hand I am learning. We are constantly learning; learning is just perception that has been recorded into long term memory. It can be anything.
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Information is real. Information can be measured and given a value.
And thus you have identified the difference between fact and wisdom which you said did not exist.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661782 - 05/11/04 02:02 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, I said that I believed wisdom is factual in nature. Information deals with facts. Facts can be physically encoded. Information is the physically encoded fact.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661791 - 05/11/04 02:09 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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bert said:
Does that mean that mushrooms 'taught' me anything? Not really, but they facilitated my subjective, yet meaningful (to me) acquisition of previously inaccessible data.
I understood that "taught" included that type of learning (the reworking of previously acquired knowledge). I see no reason to believe that psychedelics do this.
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What entails 'learning' to you and how does it differ from an altered perception?
A previously unknown fact being known (this does include the type of learning which you indicated above, where old knowledge is used to generate new knowledge).
Altered perception may simply be a different way of filtering sensory input. It does not necessarily have anything to do with enhancing learning.
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Even the slightest alteration in perception even by caffeine, rise in blood pressure, anything, or even the absence of altered perception still means you are 'learning'.
But altered sensory perception does not necessarily increase the rate of learning, thus this type of learning can be explained as normal (iow, it would have happened without the drug).
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Just by looking at my hand I am learning.
Wow. You can look at your hand with or without psychedelics. You'll probably see your hand better when you're not hallucinating from dope.
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We are constantly learning; learning is just percetion that has been recorded into long term memory. It can be anything.
Which doesn't mean that psychedelics cause learning. Perhaps they change how or what is learned.
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Merkin
neep.
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 Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kaiowas]
#2661794 - 05/11/04 02:10 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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kaiowas said:
i like your quote!
"sometimes we live no particular way but our own."
eyes of the world 
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Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
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bert said:
Does that mean that mushrooms 'taught' me anything? Not really, but they facilitated my subjective, yet meaningful (to me) acquisition of previously inaccessible data.
I understood that "taught" included that type of learning (the reworking of previously acquired knowledge). I see no reason to believe that psychedelics do this.
Then you have not eyes to see. Do you believe it is pure coincidence that I suddenly adopted a completely new outlook on life after the most intense trip of my life?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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bert
bodhi
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Even if psychedelics did 'cause you to learn' there would be no way of proving it either way due to the subjective nature of the experience. So we can only go by our own personal experiences and if you feel that you have learned something while tripping then so be it. But there is no way for me to relate my experience to you or anyone else. And both sides are relegated to opinion until such time direct neural connection technology allows shared subjective experience of reality.
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2661816 - 05/11/04 02:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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silversoul7 said:
Do you believe it is pure coincidence that I suddenly adopted a completely new outlook on life after the most intense trip of my life?
No, not necessarily, but a change in your behaviour and thinking is not necessarily an indication that you learned anything from using psychedelic drugs. If you are asking me to evaluate what I think of your narrative then all I can say is I don't have enough information. That's all I've been saying essentially. There is not enough available information for me to conclude that psychedelics help people learn or teach them anything.
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Then you have not eyes to see.
Is this one of your ego games or are you trying to enlighten me? Fuck off with that shit okay. I am not trying to be obstinate. I evaluate what I see but I cannot reasonably conclude what you believe is true. There's no need to call me blind.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2661825 - 05/11/04 02:26 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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bert said:
Even if psychedelics did 'cause you to learn' there would be no way of proving it either way due to the subjective nature of the experience.
There would be a way to prove it. The proof is not in the subjective experience. All I am saying is that there is no proof, yet. Maybe it's true but maybe it's not.
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So we can only go by our own personal experiences and if you feel that you have learned something while tripping then so be it.
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But there is no way for me to relate my experience to you or anyone else.
You've shown that you know how to communicate.
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And both sides are relegated to opinion until such time direct neural connection technology allows shared subjective experience of reality.
Or you could just agree that your standards for believing something involve less evidence than I require in order to believe something.
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bert
bodhi
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I think you are correct in saying my standards for believing my own experiences are less stringent than for other events. What have you to say about psychedelics and the enhancement of creativity? Do you feel that they have helped you in becoming more creative after usage? If so, why is that?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
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silversoul7 said:
Do you believe it is pure coincidence that I suddenly adopted a completely new outlook on life after the most intense trip of my life?
No, not necessarily, but a change in your behaviour and thinking is not necessarily an indication that you learned anything from using psychedelic drugs.
There's different types of learning: information and insight. The type of learning I have described falls into the latter category.
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If you are asking me to evaluate what I think of your narrative then all I can say is I don't have enough information. That's all I've been saying essentially. There is not enough available information for me to conclude that psychedelics help people learn or teach them anything.
Ok, here's a little more information: This new outlook on life came as the result of my reflecting back on the trip during the comedown. The reflection was coupled with a sense of clarity I had never felt before. Now, maybe that sense of clarity was an effect of the mushrooms, but the reflection and insight were a real result of the trip. What other information do you need?
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Then you have not eyes to see.
Is this one of your ego games or are you trying to enlighten me? Fuck off with that shit okay. I am not trying to be obstinate. I evaluate what I see but I cannot reasonably conclude what you believe is true. There's no need to call me blind.
You are blind because you cannot see(or refuse to see) how subjective learning can be. I've given you a subjective account about subjective insights I gained from a trip, which subjectively enhanced my life. There is nothing to measure here. I've told you enough information that you could not conclude it to be false without calling me a liar.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
kosmic_charlie said:
I believed that I could see into my future and that certain things were going to happen in my life. I was so convinced of it, that is until the trip was over. But it seemed so real at the time. But now, several months after the trip, I don't see these prophesies coming true.
From my perspective, the future isn't something you sit back and wait to happen... I don't know what it was exactly that was suspossed to happen in your life, but I imagine a lot of it was something you would have to set out to achieve.
My take on psychadelics... just a catalyst that produces a different state of mind. Not to downplay them, I find them very important and very effective in helping me along my path. But it has to be noted that there isn't anything within the psychadelic itself that produces the changes it does, but rather, the effect it has on your mind... some people hear the word "Dissection", and think of the act of cutting up things, others might also think of the black metal band of the same name, if their experience has brought them to make that association. We imply the meaning.
Meaning and information only exist in our mind. Where else does it exist? All our understanding of a tree doesn't exist in the tree. It exists in our mind and only in our mind. If we were not aware, we would not have meaning. If some chemical has the ability to tune us into a different kind of awareness, then it obviously offers some benefits, if we see them as benefits, that can be used by us.
Different perspectives bring different insight. The discovery of the microscope and the telescope offer us different vantage points that we have used to greatly increase our understanding and knowledge, which advances the meaning we find in this existance. Stars are no longer lights in the sky, we have a deeper understanding of them now.
I don't understand why we have to view inner tools that change perspective and outlook any differently than outer tools. With psychadelics I have greatly increased my understanding of who I am, how my mind works and how I create the version of this existance that I see, and even some insight into the nature of things. Obviously, it wasn't the psychadelic itself that brought about the changes in me. It all depended on who I was when I took them (combination of past experiences), the state of mind I was in at the time, the environment I was in that directed my thoughts... just how it all played out, basically.
You can use a microscope as a paperweight. You can use it as a ballistic weapon. You can alter it and smoke weed out of it. You can use it to hit rocks. You can use it as a cat skull crusher. You can use it to take a peek at a part of the world that is beyond our normal vision. There is no implied use of a microscope. There isn't a right way to use a microscope, and there isn't a wrong way to use a microscope. When someone made the microcscope, their intentions for its purpose do not get implied into the microscope, but it is possible to communicate with others and share that intention and meaning. When it comes on down to it, there is just a microscope.
Psychadelics allow me to transcend habitual ways of thinking. They allow me the oppurtunity to experience in more richness and colour. Aspects of reality I normally am seperated from run through me once again. It is a beautiful, divine experience within that has had a profound impact on my state of mind ever since. I've learned and grown; I've changed and evolved. If I had never experienced a state of mind influenced by the influence of psychadelics, I would be lost in a sea of negativity and limited awareness, with little to no appreciation of life.
Sure it is a subjective experience. There isn't anything but a subjective experience, ever. There is likely an objective reality, however, consciousness and an individual perspective creates a subjective experience of that objective reality. As I've said, meaning exists within our mind, based on our experience in this objective reality. The word "Norway" means something else to me than it does to anyone else. No one will ever hold the same exact meaning of the word "Norway" as I do.
Summary: Meaning and understanding do not exist anywhere outside of consciousness. Subjective experience is all there is, and it cannot be denied. 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Scarfmeister
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2662033 - 05/11/04 05:32 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I couldnt care less! i just want to get FuXREDrZ!!!!!!!
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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!
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Anonymous
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I think anyone interested in this question or better the question of whether or not these things we experience are true should read and re-read Rick Strassman's DMT The Spirit Molecule.
A quote:
"What happens when the spirit molecule pulls and pushes us beyond the physical and emotional levels of awareness? We enter into invisible realms, ones we cannot normally sense and whose presence we can scarcely imagine. Even more surprising, these realms appear to be inhabited.
At a certain point [in the research], I decided to accept at face value volunteers' reports. This thought experiment replaced my original tendency to explain away, interpret, or reduce their experiences into something else, such as a disordered brain's hallucinations, dreams, or psychological symbolism. Now, after several years of additional study and reflection, I think it's worth considering seriously whether it's possible that these experiences indeed were exactly what they seemed to be." (page 313 of the 2001 Park Street Press paperback edition)
Strassman's book is the best I've ever read on this topic. He's talking about DMT of course, so there's a diminished third there as far as the mushroom goes, to strike a musical chord, but non-the-less...
Mckenna discussed taking hallucinations seriously too. The Eros & Eschaton audio file at mckenna.psychedelic-library.org offers a lively talk on the issue.
When we return to conventional reality we are reentering a culturally sanctioned and habitual mode of being and thought. Culture and habit are not always and forever your friends, to paraphrase the Curmudgeon from Colorado. They do pay the bills, however, mustn't forget.
aPendasillyscene represents the rational, materialistic and scientistic aspects of our cultural habituation. His lesson is not that psychedelics fail in the face of science and logic to reveal truth but that rationalistic materialism fails in the face of psychedelics to say anything at all! 
I suggest spending some time with Strassman and Mckenna. They may not have everything sewn up tight but they do move the conversation in interesting and provocative directions. And Strassman is doing formal science. If nothing else, his Hallucinogen Rating Scale, or HRS, is a purdy darned cool idea. (p. 299)
Cool thread. Thanks.
Edited by bufo (05/11/04 09:32 AM)
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2662806 - 05/11/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
There's different types of learning: information and insight. The type of learning I have described falls into the latter category.
If insight does not involve information and the insights are not true then I do not consider it learning. Insight is one form of acquiring information.
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Ok, here's a little more information: This new outlook on life came as the result of my reflecting back on the trip during the comedown.
Please demonstrate that psychedelics caused this change.
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What other information do you need?
Clear evidence that these insights were valid and that something about the psychedelics themselves caused them.
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You are blind because you cannot see(or refuse to see) how subjective learning can be.
Like I said, I'm not being obstinate, I simply require evidence. You have failed to provide me more evidence than simply a correlation between one trip and having possibly learned something. You have not considered other possible explanations and eliminated them.
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I've given you a subjective account about subjective insights I gained from a trip, which subjectively enhanced my life. There is nothing to measure here.
The validity of your insights ultimately should be measurable as true or false.
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I've told you enough information that you could not conclude it to be false without calling me a liar.
That's incorrect. If I concluded that it was false then I could say that your conclusions are false. Nonetheless, as I've said a few times, I haven't concluded that you are wrong.
Don't put words into my mouth. Just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I'm calling you a liar. I believe that you're saying what you think is true. Don't try to tell me what my position is.
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Phencyclidine
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Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: ]
#2662819 - 05/11/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bufo said:
Now, after several years of additional study and reflection, I think it's worth considering seriously whether it's possible that these experiences indeed were exactly what they seemed to be." (page 313 of the 2001 Park Street Press paperback edition)
And nobody should interpret my point of view as saying that I simply consider them only hallucinations, that this is proven true and that we shouldn't consider otherwise. All points of view should be considered. I am considering SS7s. I'm not calling him a liar. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that psychedelic experiences are anything other than, basically, delusions, hallucinations and sensory distortion. I consider that to be consistent with the evidence.
Jansen makes a similar point about the nature of psychedelic experiences in "Ketamine: Dreams and Realities." He is just speculating of course, but he says its possible that the information is encoded in quantum linked particles.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
There's different types of learning: information and insight. The type of learning I have described falls into the latter category.
If insight does not involve information and the insights are not true then I do not consider it learning. Insight is one form of acquiring information.
Incorrect. Insight and information are two different things.
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Ok, here's a little more information: This new outlook on life came as the result of my reflecting back on the trip during the comedown.
Please demonstrate that psychedelics caused this change.
Please demonstrate that the words in your post were caused by you typing on your keyboard. That makes just as much sense.
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What other information do you need?
Clear evidence that these insights were valid and that something about the psychedelics themselves caused them.
Well, I've been a happier person ever since then, which I think would make them valid, and I had them while tripping, which I'm fairly sure was caused by psychedelics.
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You are blind because you cannot see(or refuse to see) how subjective learning can be.
Like I said, I'm not being obstinate, I simply require evidence. You have failed to provide me more evidence than simply a correlation between one trip and having possibly learned something. You have not considered other possible explanations and eliminated them.
You cannot get evidence of a subjective experience. You are demanding the impossible.
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I've given you a subjective account about subjective insights I gained from a trip, which subjectively enhanced my life. There is nothing to measure here.
The validity of your insights ultimately should be measurable as true or false.
How do you measure happiness?
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I've told you enough information that you could not conclude it to be false without calling me a liar.
You are putting words into my mouth. I never said that I concluded it was false. I never said that. I simply said that I have no concluded that it was true.
If I say I'm a happier person now, and that it's the result of my insights which I gained after this trip, how can I prove that to you? It's a subjective experience. There is nothing here to measure. I'm sorry, but my word is all I can offer. If it's not good enough for you, then you're basically calling me a liar.
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Don't put words into my mouth. Just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I'm calling you a liar. I believe that you're saying what you think is true. Don't try to tell me what my position is.
You are being beyond skeptical to the point of denial.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2662916 - 05/11/04 11:40 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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silversoul7 said:
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Phencyclidine said:
If insight does not involve information and the insights are not true then I do not consider it learning. Insight is one form of acquiring information.
Incorrect. Insight and information are two different things.
I never said that information and insights are the same thing. Information can be seen as a data itself. Insight in information which has been produced by self-reflection.
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Please demonstrate that psychedelics caused this change.
Please demonstrate that the words in your post were caused by you typing on your keyboard. That makes just as much sense.
I am not obligated to demonstrate a claim that I did not make. You are making the claim that psychedelics caused you to learn something, so you should demonstrate this claim if you want anyone to believe you. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claims.
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Well, I've been a happier person ever since then, which I think would make them valid, and I had them while tripping, which I'm fairly sure was caused by psychedelics.
So, you're only "fairly certain" but you're not absolutely certain? I prefer to be more certain than "fairly certain."
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You cannot get evidence of a subjective experience. You are demanding the impossible.
No, I am asking you to demonstrate something that I believe should be measureable. However, you have made a good point. Not enough is known about the brain at this point to be able to demonstrate that your claim is true, thus at this point it would not be reasonable to conclude that your claim is true. It would also not be reasonable to conclude that it's incorrect. Your claim simply cannot be supported because the evidence is not available. The evidence exists. I believe that it should be physically encoded into your brain. However, since this evidence is not available, is simply the reason that I am saying that you cannot support your claim.
IOW, what you don't seem to understand is that my position is that your claim could be true (and that it could even be proven true) or it could be false, but that there is not enough evidence to make a conclusion.
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The validity of your insights ultimately should be measurable as true or false.
How do you measure happiness?
I never said that I could measure your happiness. I said that whether your insights (the one you claimed psychedelics caused you to learn) are true or false could be evaluated.
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If I say I'm a happier person now, and that it's the result of my insights which I gained after this trip, how can I prove that to you?
That's not the claim I am asking you to prove. I am asking you to give evidence that psychedelics caused the learning.
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If it's not good enough for you, then you're basically calling me a liar.
Wrong. Don't put words into my mouth.
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You are being beyond skeptical to the point of denial.
You've offered no evidence that your claim is true other than a simple correlation between having learned something after taking a psychedelic drug. It does not logically follow that your claim is true.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
Phencyclidine said:
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silversoul7 said:
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Phencyclidine said:
If insight does not involve information and the insights are not true then I do not consider it learning. Insight is one form of acquiring information.
Incorrect. Insight and information are two different things.
I never said that information and insights are the same thing. Information can be seen as a data itself. Insight in information which has been produced by self-reflection.
The insight I'm talking about here is insight in how to be happy. There are no facts involved, except for the fact that I'm happy now. Then again, that can't really be objectively measured, so maybe even that's not really a fact.
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Please demonstrate that psychedelics caused this change.
Please demonstrate that the words in your post were caused by you typing on your keyboard. That makes just as much sense.
I am not obligated to demonstrate a claim that I did not make. You are making the claim that psychedelics caused you to learn something, so you should demonstrate this claim if you want anyone to believe you. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claims.
I claimed that I learned how to be happy. Since happiness cannot be measured, I cannot prove it if you won't take my word for it that I am, in fact, happier than before.
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Well, I've been a happier person ever since then, which I think would make them valid, and I had them while tripping, which I'm fairly sure was caused by psychedelics.
So, you're only "fairly certain" but you're not absolutely certain? I prefer to be more certain than "fairly certain."
It's called sarcasm, buddy.
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You cannot get evidence of a subjective experience. You are demanding the impossible.
No, I am asking you to demonstrate something that I believe should be measureable.
Happiness is not measurable. Sorry.
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The validity of your insights ultimately should be measurable as true or false.
How do you measure happiness?
I never said that I could measure your happiness. I said that whether your insights (the one you claimed psychedelics caused you to learn) are true or false could be evaluated.
You're missing the whole fucking point. Happiness IS the insight I got from this trip.
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If I say I'm a happier person now, and that it's the result of my insights which I gained after this trip, how can I prove that to you?
That's not the claim I am asking you to prove. I am asking you to give evidence that psychedelics caused the learning.
Well, it was a change which occurred immediately after a trip, so I'd say the chronology of it backs up my claim.
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You are being beyond skeptical to the point of denial.
You've offered no evidence that your claim is true other than a simple correlation between having learned something after taking a psychedelic drug. It does not logically follow that your claim is true.
True. Not any more than it logically follows that the hallucinations I had during the trip were caused by psychedelics.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2663063 - 05/11/04 12:15 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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silversoul7 said:
The insight I'm talking about here is insight in how to be happy. There are no facts involved, except for the fact that I'm happy now. Then again, that can't really be objectively measured, so maybe even that's not really a fact.
I believe that happiness can be explained by physical phenomena and thus can be measured.
If your claim is outside the real of objective inquiry then I cannot dispute it.
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I claimed that I learned how to be happy. Since happiness cannot be measured, I cannot prove it if you won't take my word for it that I am, in fact, happier than before.
Are you making a factual claim or not? If you're saying that you are really more happy, then that means we would be able to agree on a way of measuring it.
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It's called sarcasm, buddy.
It's called text. I can't hear tone over text.
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Happiness is not measurable. Sorry.
Though the subjective experience itself may not be measureable, I do believe that the manifestations of happiness (eg// claiming that you are more happy) can be explained by physical phenomena is measureable. Whether or not you are truly (and subjectively) "happier" is irrelevant to me. If your claim is about the physical manifestations of an apparent subjective state, then I'm interested.
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The validity of your insights ultimately should be measurable as true or false.
How do you measure happiness?
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Happiness IS the insight I got from this trip.
You're missing my point. Happiness is not insight. Insight should be encoded as information. A subjective experience is not information.
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Well, it was a change which occurred immediately after a trip, so I'd say the chronology of it backs up my claim.
Correlation does not imply causation. You have failed to consider alternative explanations.
If I proposed an alternative explanation, do you think you could show that it is inconsistent with the facts?
Just because X happened after Y, doesn't mean that Y caused X.
Hey, I've noticed that after it gets dark, the sun comes up a few hours later. Does that mean that the darkness caused the sun to rise?
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You are being beyond skeptical to the point of denial.
You've offered no evidence that your claim is true other than a simple correlation between having learned something after taking a psychedelic drug. It does not logically follow that your claim is true.
True. Not any more than it logically follows that the hallucinations I had during the trip were caused by psychedelics.
That seems to be the most reasonable explanation.
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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True. Not any more than it logically follows that the hallucinations I had during the trip were caused by psychedelics.
That seems to be the most reasonable explanation.
So are you saying that one can't prove that the hallucinations were a direct result of the psychedelic? I think you're asking too much. By your standards, no learning at all can be proven to be a direct result of teaching (because we are not advanced enough to physically measure the brain. I'm also unsure of whether or not the human brain encodes information in quanta like a computer.) Causation is extremely difficult to prove and is not neccessary in most psychological experiments.
I don't know anything about neuropsychological experimentation but I'm taking a class on it next year so maybe I'll have more to offer then. All I have now is my knowledge of psychological statistics, in which a multititude of subjective experiences provide overlapping correlations that in some instances meet arbitrary criteria set by the experimenter. So even when you think you have 'causation' it is still subject to the scrutiny of the person viewing the experiment. I could say 'gravity doesn't exist' and if I chose to adamantly believe that then there is nothing you could do to persuade me otherwise, even if you showed me mathematical formulas, showed me apples dropping, threw a book at my head, etc. Causation is simply broad public opinion on a myriad of correlations.
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
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Posts: 2,915
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2663271 - 05/11/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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bert said:
So are you saying that one can't prove that the hallucinations were a direct result of the psychedelic?
Yes. Strictly speaking nothing can be proven absolutely. However, I think that the evidence is so overwhelming that it is essentially proven that psychedelics cause hallucinations. "Proven" in the sense that I believe that it is the most reasonable explanation and has a low probability of being incorrect. I was simply being careful with my phrasing because I don't want SS7 to turn this into a different debate.
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I think you're asking too much.
I am asking SS7 to back up his claim.
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By your standards . . .
What are my standards?
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I'm also unsure of whether or not the human brain encodes information in quanta like a computer.
There's a fascinating new breed of drugs that inhibit long term memory formation by interrupting the formation of certain macromolecules in the brain (polypeptides I believe).
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Causation is extremely difficult to prove and is not neccessary in most psychological experiments.
Hence I have very little faith in that discipline.
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I could say 'gravity doesn't exist' and if I chose to adamantly believe that then there is nothing you could do to persuade me otherwise, even if you showed me mathematical formulas, showed me apples dropping, threw a book at my head, etc.
True, you could insist that but I wouldn't have to attempt to demonstrate that it does exist to you. First of all, strictly speaking, nothing can be proven absolutely, so if you're interested in getting absolute proof I wouldn't try to prove anything to you. In this case, I'm not asking for much evidence from SS7.
Also, Scientific inquiry cannot disprove the existence of something, so I would find your assertion that "gravity does not exist" to be fundamentally flawed.
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Causation is simply broad public opinion on a myriad of correlations.
Causation is not an opinion. People may have opinions about the causes of different phenomena but causation itself is not an opinion. I think you need to clarify this statement, because it doesn't make sense.
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bert
bodhi
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Ok, causation as a human construct -insert previous statement-. Not objective causation.
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What are my standards?
What are your standards? I'm not sure if you've laid down a specific and verifiable set of criteria that silver would need to meet in order to prove that information acquired during the altered state of a psychedelic experience is the cause of his newfound happiness. Short term happiness is relatively easier to measure, you could measure seratonin level, blood pressure, facial expression, etc.
Long term happiness cannot be measured in such a way. Unless you were hooked up to CAT scans and MRI's and such 24 hours a day for several years. Long term happiness is something that can be measured using the psychological methods that you have so little faith in. If you actually read up on many psychological experiments I'm confident that you would have a little more faith in it as a discipline even though it is not considered a 'hard science' by many. It has its uses and applications and its findings influence society in many areas including, improved teaching methods (ironically the subject of debate here), law making, military strategy, etc.
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redgreenvines
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Lying or presenting falsehood is not a property of entheogens. Fault falls on the little logical leaps that we make while trying to verbalize the glimpses seen when assisted.
When we are influenced by entheogens, our temporarily suspended judgment is bypassed to reveal more (layers ? and details), but what we see and how it is all connected is not a well formed package or souvenir, as the filters come on back quite quickly, spoiling the magic.
Mostly what we see is our own personal mystery (yet uncannily one we all seem to share).
So when do we know we are lying to ourselves about what we have seen?
1) If we make a judgment about other people not including ourselves, we are quite likely in error or not using the entheogens properly (includes politics, history, evolution, and physics)
2) If we make a judgment about ourselves quickly after a mere glimpse of some cosmic bogglement it is likely too early to understand the scope of the glimpse.
What we need to do with entheogens is direct it towards ourselves and how we are sensing, thinking, feeling, remembering, and acting. We need to look and to be patient about what meaning anything might have that emerges. Rather than hanging on, we need to let go of concepts.
As for what goes into hallucinations, we have to look more closely at what is memory, sensation, feeling etc. We have to see how they mix to form cotemporal gestalt experiences, how they naturally arise and succede, how they are linked cotemporally and how they become linked to subsequent gestalt experience moments.
The essence of hallucination is in that memory-experience linkage engine with a little added tweak from the entheogen - making arising phenomena fade out a little more slowly.
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MarkostheGnostic
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 Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Zahid]
#2664120 - 05/11/04 04:30 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you pour out a valuable rocket fuel on the ground and ignite it, you're going to get a flash of 'Light,' perhaps some 'colors,' and come away dazed with retinal after-images which fade in a very short time.
If instead, you take the valuable rocket fuel (psychedelic), load it carefully into an exquisite three-stage rocket (body-mind-spirit that we are), support it with a sturdy yet flexible gantry (religious beliefs), the whole thing set upon a solid concrete launch-pad (faith, in what is possible), engage the guidance system (Love of Truth), and then 'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun,' (Destination GOD), you will have acted with Wisdom, not childish folly. You will have employed a great source of compatible energy in the service of Transcendence. Without all of these components in place, a mere light show, momentary dazzle, nothing gained, and a big disappointment.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kaiowas]
#2664190 - 05/11/04 04:44 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Dear Socrates was forced to drink Hemlock (suicide), according to some, because he managed to obtain, use and turn his pupils onto the psychedelic 'Kykeon' outside of the confines of the Eleusinian Mystery Rites. His student Plato makes perfect sense after one has had the Psychedelic Experience. It turned me into a philosophy major specializing in Platonic and Neoplatonic mysticism.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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wrestler_az
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Quote:
'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
that reminded me of the pink floyd song.....i love that song  i liked your rocket fuel metaphore 
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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kosmic_charlie
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Wow this thread really took off. That is just my drunken ramblings from last night but it is something that I spend much time wondering about. Today was a long day and I'm tired but when I have time I will try to absorb all of these interesting replys and maybe try to offer a little feedback. I like this forum. Maybe I'll start spending a little more time here.
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Goin' where the water tastes like wine.
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Anonymous
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Having a little synchronistic moment here. I received today and was just perusing a copy of The Road to Eleusis by Wasson, Hofmann and Ruck where I read in Ruck's preface to this second edition,
"We need only to recall the peaceful death that Socrates encountered with his drink of Koneion, which is totally at at odds with the horrendously painful symptoms observed today in cases of poisoning by hemlock; he had wanted to pour off a few drops as libation, but was warned that the dosage he was given was exact."
Ruck is referring to the lost art of ancient herbalism. If death by hemlock could be a peaceful thing at the hands of a master of ancient herbalism, imagine the life of a psychedelic experience! Rocket fuel indeed.
Edited by bufo (05/11/04 08:45 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: ]
#2665390 - 05/11/04 08:47 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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An excellent choice to anyone's psychedelic library! Cheers to your synchronicity!
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: wrestler_az]
#2665396 - 05/11/04 08:48 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks!
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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silversoul7
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I have decided that this debate is a waste of my time, since despite what you may think, certain changes cannot be measured. In your refusal to recognize this, you are asking me to do something which cannot be done. I have no need to prove my own experiences to you, as they are mine, not yours, and it is not important that you believe them. Therefore, I have nothing left to say in this argument, which is leading nowhere fast.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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chodamunky
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I remember hearing Terence McKenna saying that many of the shamans he met with found out how to make the DMT drink Ahuyasca (sp?) by taking other psychadelics plants in their environment. the plant spirit told them which plants to use and how to make it. I think that's pretty incredilbe.
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daba
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I have not read through this entire post so forgive me if I'm redundant.
My first few times experiencing psychadellics showed me marvellous new worlds and perspectives. I thought the universe had opened up to me and that I had discovered something remarkable.
Turns out, I did discover something noteworthy but it wasn't out-of-this-world. It was just the analyzation of my experiences from the psychadelic perspective. Psychadelics, in my opinion, do not show us anything new but ourselves.
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Phencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2665942 - 05/11/04 10:49 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bert said:
I'm not sure if you've laid down a specific and verifiable set of criteria that silver would need to meet in order to prove that information acquired during the altered state of a psychedelic experience is the cause of his newfound happiness.
I did not ask for complete proof. All I've asked for so far is evidence.
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Short term happiness is relatively easier to measure, you could measure seratonin level, blood pressure, facial expression, etc.
Ok.
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Long term happiness cannot be measured in such a way.
Which really is an admission that there is a lack of evidence. Remember, all I've asked for so far is evidence, not proof and I haven't called anyone a liar. I haven't said that SS7's claim is false.
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If you actually read up on many psychological experiments I'm confident that you would have a little more faith in it as a discipline even though it is not considered a 'hard science' by many.
Why are you assuming that I haven't read on up psychological experiments?
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Phencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
#2665994 - 05/11/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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silversoul7 said: certain changes cannot be measured. In your refusal to recognize this, you are asking me to do something which cannot be done.
No. If the changes you were referring to were supposed supernatural phenomena then I would not ask you to measure them, but I am asking you to simply provide evidence that your claim is correct.
I believe that 'subjective' phenomena are measureable. Consciousness is aware of things that exist. Since consciousness is aware of things that exist, there can be no consciousness without existence. Consciousness itself must also exist (as a physical thing) because something cannot perceive without existing. Also, by necessity, since consciousness is aware of things that exist, and consciousness is aware of itself, consciousness exists. Subjective phenomena also exist as physical things because consciousness is aware of them.
This is not to say that any perceived phenomena is as consciousness perceives it, but simply that it exists and thus can be perceived (in one form or another, directly or indirectly) by any consciousness.
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I have no need to prove my own experiences to you, as they are mine, not yours, and it is not important that you believe them.
I never said that I didn't believe your experiences. I am skeptical of the conclusions you came to regarding them.
If you don't want to prove them you don't have to. I never asked for proof. I asked for evidence. You failed to provide any and thus you've failed to convince me. That doesn't mean that you're wrong.
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bert
bodhi
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Quote:
If you actually read up on many psychological experiments I'm confident that you would have a little more faith in it as a discipline even though it is not considered a 'hard science' by many.
"Hence I have very little faith in that discipline."
"Why are you assuming that I haven't read on up psychological experiments?"
Because the manner in which you discount its validity displays your seeming ignorance toward the specific manner in which experiments are run and the importance of the information gathered through psychological experimentation. I'm not insulting you, just pointing out that your opinions reveal a lack of knowledge on this subject. Perhaps you are thinking of the practice of clinical psychology as opposed to the experimental aspect? Are you influenced by the many psychiatrists who over-prescribe drugs to the American populace? Has this possibly colored your view of this discipline?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Phencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2666028 - 05/11/04 11:10 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
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bert said:
"Why are you assuming that I haven't read on up psychological experiments?"
Because the manner in which you discount its validity displays your seeming ignorance toward the specific manner in which experiments are run and the importance of the information gathered through psychological experimentation.
Your assumption is wrong and thus so is your inferrence about my ignorance towards the discipline.
I wouldn't be dismissive of it for no reason.
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I'm not insulting you, just pointing out that your opinions reveal a lack of knowledge on this subject.
No, you think they reveal a lack of knowledge on the subject.
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Perhaps you are thinking of the practice of clinical psychology as opposed to the experimental aspect?
I'm thinking of "psychology" as a scientific discipline itself.
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Are you influenced by the many psychiatrists who over-prescribe drugs to the American populace?
Irrelevant.
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Has this possibly colored your view of this discipline?
Whether or not it has is irrelevant (in my opinion it hasn't because I don't give a shit, but that opinion is a "psychological" one). What's ultimately relevant is the reasons for me being dismissive of the discipline and whether or not they are valid.
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bert
bodhi
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Meh, so I'm guessing you find little to no redeeming value in philosophy, sociology, and anthropology as well.
Edit: You say that subjective experience is objectively measurable. That seems to be true, but measuring a subjective experience is not the same thing as actually experiencing it. I do not believe in a 'self'. But if I understand correctly, by your reasoning it would be theoretically possible for you to experience my same experience at such time technology allows this? Is there a difference between experiencing and measuring and if so is there information that can only be retrieved through experience that cannot be elicited through measurement?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
Edited by bert (05/11/04 11:40 PM)
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silversoul7
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What you are basically asking for is evidence that psychedelics are the cause of the change that occurred in me. Correct? I am not a chemist. I do not have a profound understanding of how drugs work on the brain. Therefore, other than relating my own experiences and using basic logic, I cannot give you any more evidence than I have already given you.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2666417 - 05/12/04 12:08 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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bert said:
Meh, so I'm guessing you find little to no redeeming value in philosophy, sociology, and anthropology as well.
I see no value in sociology.I see great value in philosophy. I see value in anthropology.
I think philosophy is wonderful. I like anthropology because it concerns itself with offering alternative explanations to established, hegemonic discourses. Anthropology is a discipline of reasonable academic criticism of all other disciplines at its best, IMHO.
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Edit: You say that subjective experience is objectively measurable. That seems to be true, but measuring a subjective experience is not the same thing as actually experiencing it.
I believe I made it clear that I understand this.
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But if I understand correctly, by your reasoning it would be theoretically possible for you to experience my same experience at such time technology allows this?
Yes.
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Is there a difference between experiencing and measuring and if so is there information that can only be retrieved through experience that cannot be elicited through measurement?
Measuring something is to quantify it. Experiencing is to perceive. One may experience the act of measuring but this is not measurement in and of itself.
Due to uncertainties, I believe that all experiences are essentially unique, but excellent approximations of them could be retreived as information.
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ParabolaChair
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I would say that whether they lie or not is less of an issue than WHY it is that these truths cant be remembered as they were before...
Some of it probably has to do with basic memory coding, but a great deal i would bet, is a result of the nature of sensory changes under the influence of shrooms.
When you shroom, your sensory system changes, the toxins from the mushroom interact with your nervous system and brain and new neurotransmitters are released, new experiences are had and new revelations are achieved. The nature of a shroom trip is that you senses perceive the world differently, and your mind thinks of the world differently. When you combine these two changes, esp the sensory changes, it is clear that when ur not on shrooms, the reason you can't re-contextualize your truths and understandings as anything more than a hazy memory is a result of sensory differences.
While doing mushies, u had one set of sensory perception, while off, u have a completely different interaction and reaction to stimuli. Your brain is probably not capable of re-encoding the memories and emotions of that realization without the parallel sensory circumstance when you try to recall them from your memory. Granted, this isn't the only impediment, I would bet its one of them.
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bert
bodhi
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Due to uncertainties, I believe that all experiences are essentially unique, but excellent approximations of them could be retreived as information.
Which uncertainties are we talking about exactly? I actually don't think that experience is unique, and that the experience is not neccessarily privy to the perceiver. I say this because experience exists in the physical world only as chemicals, bio matter and electricity.
There is no fundamental difference between your brain and my brain that cannot be crossed in theory. Thus there is no fundamental difference between your experience and mine aside from the distance and physical separation of our brains and sense organs. No approxamation neccessary, you could obtain direct and actual information in theory. Am I totally wrong? Its late and I think I'm getting off track.
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Mr_Gubjet
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Quote:
kosmic_charlie said:
Maybe I take the psychedlic experience with too much faith. How many of you people believe that what you learn from psychedelics (mainly LSD and mushrooms) is the way is? I mean there are so many ideas that have been forced into my brain from LSD but then after the trip I wonder if I really did reach some great catharsis and see the universe for how it really is and have this restored belief in a higher force, or was it all a hallucination? Maybe some examples will help reiterate what I'm talking about.
On my last acid trip I felt like I met my maker. I was shown things so clearly. I believed the idea of fate with all my heart. Normally I would reject this idea but at the time it seemed fact. I believed that I could see into my future and that certain things were going to happen in my life. I was so convinced of it, that is until the trip was over. But it seemed so real at the time. But now, several months after the trip, I don't see these prophesies coming true. But maybe I'm just in hurry for these to come true. I also learned that it is not worth the effort to be in a hurry for things to happen because everything will fall into place in the end. But is that just my brain telling myself that for my own comfort? It just seems like the ideas that get fed to you seem so real at the moment of a heavy psychedlic experience and it's sometimes difficult to not beleive them even after the experience.
Having full belief in a higher force is perhaps a better example that is easier to explain in writing. On heavy acid trips I have reached points where I had 100% belief in a higher force or God or whatever you want to call it. During the trip this idea was simply fact. But then after the trip I tend to think that maybe it was just a hallucination. But at the time of the trip, it wasn't even debatable because I was practically staring into God's eyes. But then after the trip I almost feel like I was cheated into believing something. After the trip it's like "Oh yeah, this is how it really is, nevermind."
I just can't separate hallucination from reality when under the heavy influence of a psychedelic. I just wonder if these drugs simply effect our brain chemistry causing us to have these divinations and that it's just a matter of brain chemistry? Or do these psychedelics somehow show us some truth about the universe? At this point in my psychedelic career I can honstly say I don't know. Maybe I'm still living in a fantasy world and I'll some day realize that these drugs simply alter our brain chemistry and nothing "divine" or "supernatural" is happening. Or maybe some day I'll have a solid belief in what I learn from these drugs. What do you all think?
Only if said drug is used to get spiritual higher. Not just too get high. So no, maybe make you hallucinate things (visually) that are not there. But all these mental projecting thought are within. Maybe provoked by entheogenic experiences, not the drug itself.
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Phencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2667026 - 05/12/04 01:51 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bert said:
Which uncertainties are we talking about exactly?
Quantum uncertainties. It would probably be impossible to get a complete and perfect model of the information that produces one experience.
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I say this because experience exists in the physical world only as chemicals, bio matter and electricity.
I agree.
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No approxamation neccessary, you could obtain direct and actual information in theory. Am I totally wrong? Its late and I think I'm getting off track.
No, I fundamentally agree. I just think it's in the realm of possibility that quantum uncertainties could (and note I'm just saying could) assure that each experience is fundamentally unique.
Too tired to babble about it now, but a lot of this idea of quantum uncertainty in experience came from ideas in computational neurochemistry that use chaos theory; one of the results ends up being that experiences are nondeterministic, which I consider as a possible way of ensuring uniqueness to all experience (well, strictly speaking I'd say that they all have a high probability of being unique, but "how" unique is another matter - one neuron firing differently out of billions may be irrelevant) Just something to consider,
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alphaone
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I started a similar topic some 10 days ago (Holographic reality, looking beyond the veil of Maya), but have been busy and unable to check this board since then. Thanks to everyone who replied, hopefully I'll get back there soon too.
I find this question to be very important indeed. I don't doubt at all that psychedelics are able to increase the insight into one's own mind, enable different modes of thinking, change the way how we recall past events and the way we (re)experience them, usually from a different perspective. They also remove the usual filter through which we perceive reality and put a different one. So, I would say it's not questionable that psychedelics are useful tools for changing the way we process the information that already exists in us (e.g. memories) and for changing the way we perceive reality, e.g. by observing our surroundings while tripping. That's definitely the increased insight into things, or modification/enlargement of our perception. Who knows what myriad of things happen in our brains and probably in our souls as well when we take a psychedelic drug.
Concerning these kind of insights, are they real or fake... I think it will depend on the quality of the trip, how we interpret the symbols involved, how we will integrate this insight into our daily lives etc. So far I have had subtle but profound insights, and most of them have stood the test of time.
However, what about measurable things, things that Phencyclidine mentions? Can we, with the aid of psychedelics, access information that neither exists in our memory nor in our surroundings? Can we learn things from the collective consciosness or from other entities...? I mean concrete things which we've never had any notion about before?
These are the questions I would really like to know for sure, too. I'm still undicided about it - whether psychedelics are able to bring us information that is, looking from a strictly scientific-materialistic point of view, totally out of our reach. I myself still haven't experienced this kind of direct psychedelic information exchange, but I do believe it is possible. And I would very much like to be able to experience it
Don't forget that shamans have always used this very property of psychedelic substances - to acquire information about something or someone, the information they wouldn't be able to know about otherwise. This was the primary role of sacred plants for a shaman. Not so much to experience God or gods for the sake of enjoyment or his/hers spiritual advancement, but to solve everyday, usual problems for their tribesmen: Curing the sick, finding lost objects and persons, solving murder cases, divining the outcome of some important decision, telling parents the health status of their children (who may be far away) etc.
Now, clearly, that cannot be dispensed with as "only insight", improved perception, or hallucination, because they are bringing back from their trips information that can be verified in common reality by other people.
I think it would be good here to quote Maria Sabina, the famous curandera who revealed the secret about the sacred mushrooms to Gordon Wasson. She was probably the most skilled psychonaut of our time, at least for the mushroom universe. She talks quite clearly about this issue. I think we shouldn't discard her assertions as unverifiable.
The whole text can be found at: http://www.wf.net/~aardvark/ee/essays/maria_sabina.htm
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"The mushroom is similar to your soul. And not all souls are the same. Marcial [her second husband, a violent and drunken man] had taken the teo-nan?catl [sacred mushrooms], had had visions, but the visions served no purpose. Many people of the sierra have taken it and are taking it, but not everyone enters into the world where everything is known.
"Also Ana Mar?a, my sister, began taking them together with me, had the same visions, talked to the mushrooms, but the mushrooms did not reveal all their secrets. The secrets that they revealed to me are enclosed in a big Book that they showed me and that is found in a region very far away from their world, a great Book. They gave it to me when Ana Mar?a fell ill ? and seemed almost near death.
"So I decided to return again to the teo-nan?catl. I took many, many more than I had ever taken before: thirty plus thirty. I loved my sister and was ready to do anything, even to make a very long trip, just to save her. I was sitting in front of her with my body, but my soul was entering the world of the teo-nan?catl and was seeing the same landscape that it had seen many other times, then landscapes that it had never seen because the great number of mushrooms had taken me into the deepest of the depths of that world.
"I was going ahead until, at one point, a duende, a spirit, came toward me. He asked a strange question: 'But what do you wish to become, you, Mar?a Sabina?'
'I answered him, without knowing, that I wished to become a saint. Then the spirit smiled, and immediately he had in his hands something that he did not have before, and it was a big Book with many written pages.
"'Here,' he said. 'I am giving you this Book so that you can do your work better and help people who need help and know the secrets of the world where everything is known.'
"I thumbed through the leaves of the Book, many written pages, and I thought that unfortunately I did not know how to read. I had never learned, and therefore that would not have been of any use to me. Suddenly, I realized I was reading and understood all that was written in the Book and that I became as though richer, wiser, and that moment I learned millions of things. I learned and learned ? I looked for the herbs that the Book had indicated to me, and I did exactly what I had learned from the Book. And also Ana Mar?a got well.
"I didn't need to see the Book again because I had learned everything that was inside it. But I again saw the spirit that gave it to me and other spirits and other landscapes; and I saw, close by, the sun and the moon because the more you go inside the world of teo-nan?catl, the more things are seen.
"And you also see our past and our future, which are there together as a single thing already achieved, already happened. So I saw the entire life of my son Aurelio and his death and the face and the name of the man that was to kill him and the dagger with which he was going to kill him because everything had already been accomplished. The murder had already been committed, and it was useless for me to say to my son that he should look out because they would kill him, because there was nothing to say. They would kill him, and that was it. And I saw other deaths and other murders and people who were lost - no one knew where they were - and I alone could see.
"And I saw stolen horses and ancient buried cities, the existence of which was unknown, and they were going to be brought to light. Millions of things I saw and I knew. I knew and saw God: an immense clock that ticks, the spheres that go slowly around, and inside the stars, the earth, the entire universe, the day and the night, the cry and the smile, the happiness and the pain. He who knows to the end of the secret of the 'teo-nan?catl' can even see that infinite clockwork."
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I think that this description of her powers, among other things, involves at least three important factors. First, she became a true seer when she took a really large dose of fresh mushrooms ("thirty plus thirty" fresh mushrooms, now how many grams is that?). Second, there was a tradition of mushroom eating in her family, so she was accustomed to it from early on, not in the way we have been (many of us still think of shrooms as a drug, the very term implying negative connotations, not to mention how hard it can be to obtain/grow them). So in a way she was trained to become a shaman. She was disciplined in her work and viewed each trip as her sacred duty - again something not many of us do when tripping. Third, she had a certain belief system, i.e. she believed in the spirit helpers, entities of higher intelligence that can communicate with humans while they are in the altered state of consciousness. Again, we usually don't expect such entities to appear, let alone tell us something we've never known...and maybe that's the reason they don't appear to us very often. And when they do, we discard them as hallucinations.
Then there is her chanting and humming, and a very strict way the vigil had been done, all with incense, prayers, fasting before the trip etc.
Edited by alphaone (05/14/04 06:23 PM)
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jalien
addict
Registered: 01/08/00
Posts: 345
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Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: alphaone]
#2780181 - 06/10/04 03:25 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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this is such an excellent question
one thing to notice about it is that it presumes a clear form of communication between psychedilic[sic]&psychedilee
clarity of communication
has occured for me
(elf) only on shrooms
as here there have been
clear conversations with the lil ones
i dont feel they have lied to me at all
and they are very specific
predicting that i would have a child
the year that my wife conceived
for example
i once raised that the issue of
believing them or not
was a serious one for me
and they said:
dont believe anything we have to say
just think about it
terencemckenna.info
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
#2780467 - 06/10/04 07:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have been thinking about this question more.
The simplest truth about psychedellics is that each revelation is true to it's own context.
Many of these contexts (and their truths) are not sustainable out of context, the deep meanings have no grip. The meanings in the moments they mean something can have astonishing relavence to something very amazing but fleeting.
this business of valuing things that only exist in our consensual timeframe can lead to lots of trouble, eg. global warming, eradication of aboriginal species and niches, etc.
variance is important.
perspective is gained by going into some spaces that are different.
I like learning the rules and customs of these other spaces even if they do not apply at face value to the life in this more beige consensual zone. (which is ever less beige)
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TinTree
thread killer(semi pro)
Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 1,456
Loc: Mu
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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My take on it:
Psychedelics cause a change of perspective.
With a changed perspective, insights into personal matters, problems, and beliefs are gained with much greater ease than in one's "base" state of consciousness.
Psychedelics themselves do not teach, we teach ourselves in the altered state we enter, using this changed perspective and enhanced awareness to approach problems from new angles, consider that which we had not previously considered, and re-evaluate our beliefs, decisions, and actions.
Hope that was vaguely relevant.
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"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley
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Shroomerious
OO
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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I think that probably, psychedelics just exaggerate our mind's created reality, byt clearly I could be wrong. To really know the answer to that question we must learn how to analyse the human brain up to a very high degree and even then, our analysis would again be based in our own state of mind so, like I've said in another thread, it is like being an orange and trying to eat yourself. Although the answer could lie in A.I.(Artificial Intelligence), by making a "brain" more intelligent than us, but then if that "brain" understands more dimensions than us and so our whatever safety precautions could probably be negligible for "it" we would be in deep shit and our priorities might change a bit like so:
Before A.I.:
1st Priority----->"Do psychedelics lie? Hmmmm"
After A.I.:
1st Priority----->"Survive"
       
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Shroomerious
OO
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Quote:
I just wonder if these drugs simply effect our brain chemistry causing us to have these divinations and that it's just a matter of brain chemistry? Or do these psychedelics somehow show us some truth about the universe?
Psychedelic drugs most probably change chemistry and produce results or "answers" in our mind that could be greater than life. A very appropriate example of what I mean is the different kinds of mathematics, which when developed in an advanced point can explain by exact formulae, phenomena which our most popular "everyday" maths that we all know, can not.
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gotmagog
searching fortruth andlogic...
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 239
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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I am also interested in the possible connection of math and the mushrooms and their lessons, but I am not yet sure exactly how.
Can you elaborate more what connection u meant between math and drugs that induce higher states of mind?
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: gotmagog]
#2782551 - 06/10/04 04:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes, what I meant was this,
In the maths that most of us are tought for example, there is this rule that you can not divide a number by zero. There is though an other kind of approach to this where you can divide by zero and when you do, all the basic rules and principles, everything changes and you end up with a whole new set of maths which at first seems pretty useless. But scientists have found that certain phenomena can be explained and put into formulae using these maths whereas using the standard maths you end up in a deadend.
Now without the psychedelic drugs, your mind works in a certain way (standard maths). When you use psychedelics, its chemistry balance is disturbed and some things get distorted like time or space or feelings and relative to the no-psychodrugs world, some things don't make sense. But some other things like the so called enlightment may be true even if we are using different chemistry balanve (different maths).
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Psychedelics allow us to delve deeper into our subconscious, and thin the line separating the ego from what's beyond it. They can help us regain lost memories, that maybe we have oppressed from pain or merely forgotten, and to explore other paths of thinking. We shouldn't believe everything they say is true, however, because psychedelics are only as true as the information contained in the deeper recesses of our brain... however, I believe that the subconscious knows much more of the truth of reality, so we will discover more truth while on psychedelics or meditating or doing yoga or any other exercise that allows us to contact the subconscious more, than while sober
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Iriebuddha
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Registered: 06/30/06
Posts: 85
Loc: .
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Ravus]
#6056083 - 09/13/06 02:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Iriebuddha]
#6056120 - 09/13/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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that's what's up, Terence!
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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My Christian friends and i were discussing the very same idea. But the fact remians that since i was brought up with Buddhist conditioning and he was brought up with Christian conditioning, our trips reflected and magnified these concious and subconcious trates. While he would have conversation with God, i would have experiences of what closeley resembled the "clear light".
So as far as you question goes, i feel that psycadelics merely disolve the filters between our concious (gross levels) and subconcious (subtle levels) of mind, and experiences manifests always in relation to how our minds have been conditioned on both of these two levels.
How much "meaning" we derive from such experiences seems to be purley an act of post-trip projection.
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Edited by Sinbad (09/13/06 04:34 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Sinbad]
#6056550 - 09/13/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Indeed. Psychedelics are tools. Not "the way".
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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