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Offlinekosmic_charlie
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Do Psychedilics Lie?
    #2661231 - 05/10/04 09:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe I take the psychedlic experience with too much faith. How many of you people believe that what you learn from psychedelics (mainly LSD and mushrooms) is the way is? I mean there are so many ideas that have been forced into my brain from LSD but then after the trip I wonder if I really did reach some great catharsis and see the universe for how it really is and have this restored belief in a higher force, or was it all a hallucination? Maybe some examples will help reiterate what I'm talking about.

On my last acid trip I felt like I met my maker. I was shown things so clearly. I believed the idea of fate with all my heart. Normally I would reject this idea but at the time it seemed fact. I believed that I could see into my future and that certain things were going to happen in my life. I was so convinced of it, that is until the trip was over. But it seemed so real at the time. But now, several months after the trip, I don't see these prophesies coming true. But maybe I'm just in hurry for these to come true. I also learned that it is not worth the effort to be in a hurry for things to happen because everything will fall into place in the end. But is that just my brain telling myself that for my own comfort? It just seems like the ideas that get fed to you seem so real at the moment of a heavy psychedlic experience and it's sometimes difficult to not beleive them even after the experience.

Having full belief in a higher force is perhaps a better example that is easier to explain in writing. On heavy acid trips I have reached points where I had 100% belief in a higher force or God or whatever you want to call it. During the trip this idea was simply fact. But then after the trip I tend to think that maybe it was just a hallucination. But at the time of the trip, it wasn't even debatable because I was practically staring into God's eyes. But then after the trip I almost feel like I was cheated into believing something. After the trip it's like "Oh yeah, this is how it really is, nevermind."

I just can't separate hallucination from reality when under the heavy influence of a psychedelic. I just wonder if these drugs simply effect our brain chemistry causing us to have these divinations and that it's just a matter of brain chemistry? Or do these psychedelics somehow show us some truth about the universe? At this point in my psychedelic career I can honstly say I don't know. Maybe I'm still living in a fantasy world and I'll some day realize that these drugs simply alter our brain chemistry and nothing "divine" or "supernatural" is happening. Or maybe some day I'll have a solid belief in what I learn from these drugs. What do you all think?


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661247 - 05/10/04 09:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So what if it's just changing our brain chemistry. The question is whether or not that chemical change in itself is meaningful. Based on how many ancient cultures separated by thousands of miles and oceans all came across hallucinogens and find them so important must be some indicator that the experience is not totally random (whatever randomness is...)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661292 - 05/10/04 10:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Do people lie to themselves, is a more appropriate question.


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Offlinekosmic_charlie
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: bert]
    #2661293 - 05/10/04 10:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I guess then that leads to the question of how much does our brain chemistry have to do with our consciousness in realtion to the idea of a soul? Just how important are the changes in our brain chemistry and do these changes really give us insight into the physical world as we know it? Maybe that it the question I'm ultimately seeking.


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Offlinekosmic_charlie
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Zahid]
    #2661295 - 05/10/04 10:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Do people lie to themselves, is a more appropriate question.




Yes that is a good question. Do people lie to themselves or subconsciously fabricate ideas just to make them happy or simply optimistic. I may be guilty of that.

I can't help but think of the movie Memento in light of your post Zahid.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661305 - 05/10/04 10:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think psychedelics "lie" any more than any other state of mind. Sure, you could be led on the wrong path by a psychedelic experience, but the same could be said for a sober experience. I don't think that either should be assumed to be necessarily true. Psychedelics are a way of exploring a reality different from the one you know. This reality may or may not necessarily be true. In my experience, the reality I'm presented with on psychedelics does not conflict with my sober reality, but instead merely ammends it. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe such revelations, though I am prepared to abandon such beliefs if confronted with convincing evidence to the contrary.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661310 - 05/10/04 10:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I think our consciousness is a direct result of physical causes. There is no reason to believe otherwise at this point. Psychedelics do lie in the sense that they alter our perception in a manner that is incongruent with our objective physical surroundings, you can't fly no matter how much you believe you can while tripping. But I think the 'truth' in a psychedelic experience, if there is any, would be purely in our mind.

Does that make it any less important or wrong? I don't think so. In fact, while tripping I am acutely aware of patterns and information that are latent within my physical surrounding but I have no access to normally. For instance, seeing complex imagery appear out of stucco. Going back later I can refind those same images, so I know the physical correspondence of it actually exists. You'd be surprised at how little we actually perceive moment-to-moment of our surroundings and of our own brain processes. I think psychedelics make you hyper aware of reality, bringing you closer to 'what is actually happening'.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661314 - 05/10/04 10:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i like your quote!

"sometimes we live no particular way but our own."

Zahid brings up a great point! so from there...

how do yoiu know when you are lying to yourself?

what do you use?

how do you know that one way is the only way?

how do you know that the ways we have defined god are the only ones that exist?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661405 - 05/11/04 12:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2661435 - 05/11/04 01:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.



The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom. Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things. In the process, they've made me a happier person. If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2661485 - 05/11/04 01:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phencyclidine said:
IMO there is no reason to believe that a psychedelic experience conveys any value or knowledge. I think that those who think psychedelics are teachers are doing so on faith and not evidence.




It totally depends on set and setting...if the set (the person taking the drug) is a person naturally inclined to look for the philosophical, or spiritual, and if they are in a setting condusive to that- say, in a natural surrounding posing no threat, they will likely learn something very important through the chemical interaction of their mind and the drug....

I believe that natural plant derived drugs are here- as a gift from the Earth to help us learn about life.


--------------------
Once in awhile you can get shown the light

In the strangest of places if you look at it right...



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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2661486 - 05/11/04 01:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Good words there silversoul7 and bert...I agree with you guys. Psychedelics to me act as a 'life enhancer'. Just like what Huxley was taking about with the Cerebral Reducing Valve. The process of the trip opens up your doors of perception a lot more than in 'ordinary' waking consciousness.
So, to ask weather psychedelics 'lie' I think is quite an ambiguous question. I would say that I have certainly caught my mind playing some 'tricks' on me under the influence of psychedelics, which I perceive as sort of a test, something that keeps you on your toes.
As for your amazing revelations dissapearing after the trip wears off, I don't think that this is a case of the trip giving you an unrealistic perception of reality, its just there are a lot more connections being made than what your non-tripping consciousness is used to.
I used to find the same thing as you...the real 'flesh on the bones' of a trip would dissapear as it wore off, leaving me with only the memory of feeling that way when I was tripping. However, as I got more experience with psychedelics, I began to focus more on the come-down and re-integration phase. This has resulted in many of the psychedelic revelations attained under the influence of LSD, shrooms and cactus, remaining in my day to day consciousness, which I can tell you is simply amazing, well worth the efforts of the re-integration phase.


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2661490 - 05/11/04 01:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I don't think psychedelics "lie" any more than any other state of mind. Sure, you could be led on the wrong path by a psychedelic experience, but the same could be said for a sober experience. I don't think that either should be assumed to be necessarily true. Psychedelics are a way of exploring a reality different from the


I totally agree....


--------------------
Once in awhile you can get shown the light

In the strangest of places if you look at it right...



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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661521 - 05/11/04 01:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kosmic_charlie said:
Maybe I take the psychedlic experience with too much faith.  How many of you people believe that what you learn from psychedelics (mainly LSD and mushrooms) is the way is?  I mean there are so many ideas that have been forced into my brain from LSD but then after the trip I wonder if I really did reach some great catharsis and see the universe for how it really is and have this restored belief in a higher force, or was it all a hallucination? 



Hmmm...I have thought about this a lot...even without drugs i have learned to take my "intuition" with a grain of salt :smile:. I do think it is a good way to get to know yourself...you definitely can get lost in too much busyness- and i think a lot of that could go....really, imo, the best thing is to have a healthy all around life to begin with, and entheogens can play such an important part in that....components such as meditation practice in daily life, and a good part of ones life devoted to studying things of a "higher order", a healthy diet, and most importantly, imo- living a life of loving-kindness- as the Buddhists would call it...then you are starting with a somewhat cleaner slate on a trip....if one is normally "muddled" or living in a heavily karmic way....their trip could be more reflective of that....so perhaps the psychedelic often plays the part of a mirror.  When i have "seen my maker" i think what has happened is that i clothed that energy in a mantle of my own making- does that make sense?  So in other words, it was real, but the "visual part" was all my own creation....omg i'm totally rambling and just exploring my ideas verbally for the first time in awhile so i hope it makes a little sense at least...anyway....i really like this thread... :crazy:


--------------------
Once in awhile you can get shown the light

In the strangest of places if you look at it right...



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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2661533 - 05/11/04 01:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom.




I believe that wisdom is factual in nature.

Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?

Quote:

Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things.




Explain how.

Quote:

In the process, they've made me a happier person.




By what mechanism?

Quote:

If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.




Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #2661545 - 05/11/04 01:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Do you ever wonder if your lying to your self? Just delluding yourself, from trying to have to face the "pain", or reality? Maybe were just not used to the feeling.


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What?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2661564 - 05/11/04 02:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phencyclidine said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The lessons of psychedelics are not merely factual in nature, but can be about wisdom.




I believe that wisdom is factual in nature.

Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?



Certainly.

Quote:

Quote:

Psychedelics have helped me cut through the bullshit in life and focus on the important things.




Explain how.



After I tripped on 5 grams of shrooms and had this reality slip from my grasp, I came down and had never felt so glad to be in this world. I realized how wonderful it is to be alive and that all my complaining about how things didn't go my way was a bullshit ego game, and that I needed to learn to chill and enjoy the world as it is(see my title, which I picked after this trip). It was insight on the level often found in people who have had near-death experiences. Now, I admit I have at times slipped back into my old ways, but I always make a point to remind myself of the lessons learned from that trip, and then I'm able to chill and cut the bullshit.

Quote:

Quote:

In the process, they've made me a happier person.




By what mechanism?



See above

Quote:

Quote:

If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.




Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.



Hence the "if" part of my statement.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2661586 - 05/11/04 02:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Phen, all knowledge is personal in nature(I mean nature as in kind, not the universe). For instance, I had a realization that I was unfair in my relationship with my dad while tripping. Normally, this probably would never have happened and I would still be at odds with him. So no...psychedelics don't neccessarily 'create' anything so much as it brings to the surface of your consciousness information that was pre-existing.

Wisdom is just a romantic term to describe information. Everything that exists, exists as information to us. Psychedelics only affect physical reality insofar as they actually physically interact with our neurons and receptors. Of course psychedelics can impart information to us. It's not objectively real, but it has subjective weight and it can positively affect your actions in the future even if it is not objectively real. Although even when you are sober, you are not perceiving reality as it actually exists. So we are constantly being lied to. A bat can hear much better than us, dogs can perceive the actual nature of scent molecules to a much greater degree than humans. It's even debatable if there is an objective reality.


--------------------
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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2661591 - 05/11/04 02:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

why wouldn't psychedelics provide us the opportunity to some wisdom? part of knowledge is having a different perspective to go by.. wasn't it socrates who said the wise person is the person who knows they know nothing at all?

if you have the will and the drive to learn, then having a different perspective definitly will bring some sort of knowledge to the table.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Do Psychedilics Lie? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2661689 - 05/11/04 03:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Phencyclidine said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Do you think that you could demonstrate that psychedelics provide "wisdom"?



Certainly.




Please do so.

Quote:


I realized how wonderful it is to be alive and that all my complaining about how things didn't go my way was a bullshit ego game . . .




(more "ego game" rhetoric, I see)

Your narrative does not demonstrate that anything was learned unless you can demonstrate that your complaining actually was an "ego game"; you also failed to provide evidence that the psychedelic experience caused this. Your perception of events indicates that you believe this is self-evident, but wouldn't you already have knowledge of the nature of your "ego game" before the experience?

Quote:


By what mechanism?



See above




That is not a mechanism.

Quote:

Quote:

If you're gonna sit here and tell me that psychedelics can't be teachers, I'd tell you you're full of shit.




Well, maybe you should read more closely. I never said that psychedelics can't be teachers.



Hence the "if" part of my statement.




Hence the "maybe" part of my statement.


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