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Invisiblenooneman
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How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? * 1
    #26611842 - 04/19/20 12:39 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I think there's really good arguments on both sides of the debate for and against reopening. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're pretty fucked either way.

If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades. And it's not even clear when we'd be able to reopen if we're waiting on some vaccine that may or may not ever appear. Not all viruses have vaccines. Even if we do develop a vaccine, it might not be available for years, which means the US would be devastated economically in that time. In addition, a quarantine is a restriction of basic freedoms like the freedom of assembly and the freedom of movement.

On the other hand, if we do reopen, millions could die. It's not just about other people. Think about your parents, your grandparents, your older relatives, any older friends or family. They might all be dead in a month or two. Not to mention the tens or hundreds of thousands of young people who will die too. Even if we decide it's worth letting those people die to save our economy, a massive amount of people getting sick and dying might overwhelm our ability to cope with it causing a recession or depression even if we do reopen. And morally, is it really morally justifiable to sacrifice millions in exchange for the economy: essentially killing our relatives in exchange for money?

So here's a poll, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Me personally, I lean towards reopening, but the morality/immorality of doing so is what keeps me from supporting it. Not to mention the health of the people I love. But I don't think the quarantine is a good idea either. They're both bad options IMO. What do you think?
Do you want to reopen the US ASAP?
You may choose only one
Yes
No
STAL
How strongly do you believe in reopening the US or keeping it closed?
You may choose only one
Strongly Agree with reopening ASAP
Somewhat Agree with reopening ASAP
Neutral
Somewhat Agree with keeping it closed
Strongly Agree with keeping it closed
STAL
When should the US reopen?
You may choose only one
April
May
June
July
August or Later
STAL


Votes accepted from (04/19/20 12:29 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll | Filter by response



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Offlineliving_failure
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #26612025 - 04/19/20 03:52 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I am european so STAL, but i want to see what you guys vote.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: living_failure]
    #26612127 - 04/19/20 06:19 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

living_failure said:
I am european so STAL, but i want to see what you guys vote.




Same here. ST3L


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Offlineqman
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Asante] * 8
    #26612355 - 04/19/20 08:20 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I disagree with your original thesis, the economy isn't necessarily "fucked" if we wait this thing out and the government provides the proper resources to the working class during that process.  That's the narrative the billionaire class wants the peasants to think as their profits dry up, but that doesn't make it true.

It's truly amazing that the recent protests in the US isn't about The Elite getting trillions in free money for this crisis as the peasants are essentially getting zero. The protests are about the peasants demanding to risk their lives to pay their bills to benefit The Elite. We clearly have a country full of retarded people who love their oppressors.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: qman] * 3
    #26612586 - 04/19/20 09:58 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

This is, of course, the ultimate test.  If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this.  Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses.  Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day.  In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.

The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one.  If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #26612659 - 04/19/20 10:45 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades.




I reject this argument.

First of all, unemployment is already nearing 20%. That's worse than the 2008 crash, that's Great Depression numbers. It's not about "potentially ruining the economy".

The economy is ALREADY fucked.

Now, qman here has a point. If we give money to main street, this will be a relatively painless crash. Suck for the stock market, but people would be alright. Heck, some have argued that the economy has never recovered since 2008, and that the only thing the rising stock market demonstrated was the amount of government money pumped into wall street.

Personally, I think all those "wealthy job creators" should be out there pulling jobs out of those bootstraps, right? Unless that was always a bullshit line?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #26612721 - 04/19/20 11:10 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I just fail to see how we can really do it before we have full testing capability. It seems to me, and I am no expert, that until we have enough test kits -- tests which are designed to give extremely fast results -- it is pretty much impossible to resume normal economic activity. Every citizen will need to be testing themselves at least once a week for months (if not longer?) in order really to have an economy that can be safely ramped back up.

If we do reopen before this testing capacity is achieved, it seems to me we'll just have spike after spike. Imo, those are just the facts.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26612743 - 04/19/20 11:22 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus

Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 140
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612750 - 04/19/20 11:26 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades.




I reject this argument.

First of all, unemployment is already nearing 20%. That's worse than the 2008 crash, that's Great Depression numbers. It's not about "potentially ruining the economy".

The economy is ALREADY fucked.

Now, qman here has a point. If we give money to main street, this will be a relatively painless crash. Suck for the stock market, but people would be alright. Heck, some have argued that the economy has never recovered since 2008, and that the only thing the rising stock market demonstrated was the amount of government money pumped into wall street.

Personally, I think all those "wealthy job creators" should be out there pulling jobs out of those bootstraps, right? Unless that was always a bullshit line?



Strange how many Americans despise casinos and gamblers but when we’re talking about the economy and stocks the gambling is seen as legitimate source of income. At least the working class can afford to gamble at casinos, the only people who tend to make money in the stock market aside from a few who get lucky investing in volatile stock are the ones who can already afford a couple vacations homes.

Who cares about unemployment, this is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and the majority of it goes to less than 10000 people. UBI for everyone, let those who want more work and those who want to pursue other interests will be free to.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus

Registered: 11/23/19
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612757 - 04/19/20 11:29 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.




That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26612782 - 04/19/20 11:39 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.




That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.




That's different. No paid sick leave and firing people that complain are standard practice throughout the US.

What I mean is giving companies complete legal immunity, so that if workers die due to unsafe working conditions, they cannot sue the company.


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OnlineNear Dylan
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Registered: 07/29/15
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26612811 - 04/19/20 11:49 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This is, of course, the ultimate test.  If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this.  Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses.  Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day.  In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.

The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one.  If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.



I like the way you think :cool:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26612826 - 04/19/20 11:55 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Every citizen will need to be testing themselves at least once a week for months (if not longer?) in order really to have an economy that can be safely ramped back up.



I don't think once a week is enough to keep anyone safe.  I think it would have to be a daily test.


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I am stupid for thinking feldman114 was wrong about the New York Times being a mainstream (non-establishment) paper.  I now clearly see that it is.

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OfflineYeetusdeetus

Registered: 11/23/19
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612829 - 04/19/20 11:57 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.




That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.




That's different. No paid sick leave and firing people that complain are standard practice throughout the US.

What I mean is giving companies complete legal immunity, so that if workers die due to unsafe working conditions, they cannot sue the company.




I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of crisis collateral becomes legal and common as the workplace death count increases. “Sorry your dad died but he knew the risks, here’s 200 dollars.”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26612832 - 04/19/20 11:58 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
This is, of course, the ultimate test.  If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this.  Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses.  Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day.  In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.

The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one.  If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.



I like the way you think :cool:



Agreed.  Now, how do we get the masses to do a real social uprising, if not a violent one, while they're confined to their homes without risking the lives of everyone who goes out to protest?


--------------------
I am stupid for thinking feldman114 was wrong about the New York Times being a mainstream (non-establishment) paper.  I now clearly see that it is.

Note - This signature ended up as a badge of honor since the New York Times turned out to be  far more corrupt than either of us thought.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26612839 - 04/19/20 12:01 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.





Unfortunately plausible in today's U.S.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612891 - 04/19/20 12:18 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.



In the U.S., people can't be forced to go to work.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26612946 - 04/19/20 12:41 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.





Unfortunately plausible in today's U.S.




Yeah, this was based entirely on that phone call dumpy had with CEOs. At least a few expressed concern over being sued if they reopen too early. I am more than certain that the possibility of legal immunity came up.

Quote:

Enlil said:
In the U.S., people can't be forced to go to work.




Correct, people are not forced to work. However, people are also not given any way to survive without going to work. This is one of those legal vs. real arguments, in which we are both correct in different ways.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612953 - 04/19/20 12:44 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Not really.  People aren't working now.  If they reopen, and people refuse to go back to work, those people are in exactly the same position as they were.  Ultimately, the decision to reopen is really the decision to ALLOW businesses to reopen.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26612966 - 04/19/20 12:50 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
This is, of course, the ultimate test.  If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this.  Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses.  Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day.  In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.

The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one.  If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.



I like the way you think :cool:



Agreed.  Now, how do we get the masses to do a real social uprising, if not a violent one, while they're confined to their homes without risking the lives of everyone who goes out to protest?



We don't. We reach the point where the risk from covid is outweighed by the sense of injustice. Lots of people will die, but that will only serve to heighten the sense of injustice until chaos ensues.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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