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Offlineunroad

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 201
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip
    #26611039 - 04/18/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to learn more about using mushrooms for severe treatment-resistant depression with anhedonia. I hope to use them to treat my very difficult case.

This is not my first time with mushrooms, but it's been quite a few years. Years ago it was extremely helpful for my depression, but for various reasons, I stopped using them. I believe that was a huge mistake. A few weeks ago I ate 2 large fresh mushrooms. About an hour and a half in I started to experience a horrific panic and nausea. For three hours I was in a state of panic and dry heaving. I'm not on any other medications besides an occasional migraine medicine. After 3 hours it was one of the most beautiful experiences! I was able to experience pleasure and enjoy all sorts of things and actually laugh naturally. It was amazing because I've spent the past 5 or 6 years in total depression that has been debilitating.

I've felt good about the trip and many of my old interests have returned and I've been able to experience pleasure and interest at various times throughout the day since then.

I would like to continue dosing and/or microdosing, but I'm very afraid of the anxiety. It was absolute hell. I'm also in a state that's locked down because of the virus, so I couldn't call my friends to come over to comfort me. I could talk to them on the phone but I know that puts a lot of stress on my friend who lives on the other side of the country.

Any tips for this? Any books or other resources I should check out? Thanks in advance.


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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: unroad] * 1
    #26611156 - 04/18/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Fear and nausea are common when coming up on mushrooms. Drying them helps by having less material to ingest. Making a tea can help slightly. But at the end of the day some amount of fear and nausea is just a primary effect of the drug.


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OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
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Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: unroad]
    #26611961 - 04/19/20 02:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You’ve come to the right place, OP, and I wish you well on your journey. You have just described my depression: treatment resistant depression for over 40 years, the last few years coupled with a total anhedonia. The anhedonia I put down to being on SSRIs for the last 7 years. This came to a head in 2016 when I went to a Muse concert in Manchester; I’d been wanting to see them for years, but when I eventually did, I could not get excited or motivated at all; in fact, the hassle of going to Manchester almost stopped me going! So realised something had to change and came off the SSRIs.

So I returned to mushrooms in 2016, and have been treating myself successfully since then.

You will need to find a regime that works for you; we can only offer advice from empirical data here, but everyone is here to help, and you need to tailor this advice to your situation.

I have found a sweet spot, roughly 3.8g dry cubensis, gets me to a headspace that is not too over bearing, but that leaves me with 2 week afterglow.

I no longer set intentions for a trip, I literally take my tea, and leave the mushrooms to take me where they will.

The anxiety is something you are going to have to learn to deal with. It is rooted in the fact that psilocin works by switching off parts of your brain; the default mode network. This area of the brain is responsible for your automatic thinking, and your ego. So when you perceive the drug altering this network, your ego will try to resist. You need to recognise this for what it is, accept it not resist it, and the trips will become manageable much more quickly and easily.

I am depression free for months and months at a time; haven’t tripped properly in a couple of months now, but each time I do, I wake up feeling like my brain has been reset; it’s like, I suppose, a computer hard drive being “de-fragged”.

Good luck on your journey,
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineTheEschatologist
Stranger

Registered: 02/22/18
Posts: 354
Last seen: 19 days, 14 hours
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26615233 - 04/20/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Hi unroad

Sorry to hear about your struggle with depression, it's a terrible affliction as many on this site can attest. Nooneman and DJ ed covered most of the important points i think. I'll just relay some of what I've learned about using psychedelics to treat depression. I've had a few very bad spells in my life (clinically diagnosed) and meds didn't help me, so i'm not unfamiliar with the boat you're in.

I was in a bad place about two years ago when i started using mushrooms, and most of my trips during that time were hellish in terms of anxiety. Mushrooms can be unforgiving if your baseline mental health isn't in good shape. That's not to say they can't be helpful in improving that however. Over time, i found that medium doses more frequently was more beneficial for chronic depression than massive doses infrequently. 1,8 grams or so was usually good for me. You have to find your own sweet spot through experimenting. Weigh your doses and keep notes about set and setting each time to help build your optimal experience. More isn't necessarily better, taking too much can be quite jarring and actually set you back if you're not in a good place already.

Also bear in mind that these things take a while, much like deep depression doesn't just crop up over night. Psychedelics will change you for the better little by little when used properly. I had a mistaken notion in the beginning that one big ayahuasca trip would fix my mind all at once, not so. So stick with it and don't get discouraged if you have difficult experiences.

Another thing to think about is diversifying your medicines a bit. The things I've found most useful for depression specifically are:

Syrian rue
Ketamine
Iboga (microdosing)
Ayahusaca (in a ceremony)
mushroom (tripping and microdosing)
mescaline (if you have easy access)
certain nootropics and supplements

Let me know if you're interested to learn more about any of these.

Also meditation and exercise, can't overstate how much these two things help. They are more subtle than chemical interventions but provide two fundamental pillars for robust mental health. Plus all the general lifestyle advice one can find in these kinds of threads on the forum. Be careful of other drugs - alcohol, weed, kratom, benzos, opioids, stims, whatever. They'll only contribute to the anhedonia.

Re tripping in lock down - not much to be done there unfortunately, and it's less than ideal any way you slice it. I recently learned that lesson the hard way.

A good book to have a look at might be "The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide: Safe, Therapeutic, and Sacred Journeys" By Jim Fadiman. You can download it on library genesis: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/


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Offlineunroad

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 201
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: nooneman]
    #26615795 - 04/20/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Fear and nausea are common when coming up on mushrooms. Drying them helps by having less material to ingest. Making a tea can help slightly. But at the end of the day some amount of fear and nausea is just a primary effect of the drug.





Thank you - I haven't tried the dried yet. I'm going to soon though, and I'll probably make some tea. I plan to have some Dramamine ready too in case it gets that severe again.


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Offlineunroad

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 201
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26615815 - 04/20/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
You’ve come to the right place, OP, and I wish you well on your journey.




Thank you for your response! I love the metaphor of the computer being defragged. I really believe I'm on the right track. I haven't dosed again yet but I will soon.

Anhedonia is the worst. I can handle the fear and nausea if it means the anhedonia will lift. For me, anhedonia makes it almost impossible to stand to be alive. Pain isn't too bad (I was born with spine and brain malformations that have given me my share of pain!), but without any pleasure to balance things out? No thank you!

But ever since that last trip my interests have returned, at least to some degree! I've been drawing again and also have a sudden new fascination with reading about and watching videos about moss. It's wonderful. Every day is still a struggle but I actually look forward to my activities now.

Thank you for your encouraging words.


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InvisibleDeckardCain
Stay a while and listen
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Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 236
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: unroad]
    #26615819 - 04/20/20 04:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

tea with ginger i think will help, i feel for me the nausea makes me think ive poisoned myself lol and gives me fear, tried it with ginger root and some honey, and i was anxious about being anxious but then i forgot about it and it was great


--------------------


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Offlineunroad

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 201
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #26615882 - 04/20/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Eschatologist! Thank you for the wealth of information. I will definitely check out that book.

I didn't know that kratom made anhedonia worse. I was using it for anxiety and pain relief but if it really does worsen anhedonia then forget it.

I did some ketamine infusions at a clinic almost two years ago and it scared the bejeezus out of me but ultimately helped a bit. They made me a nasal spray at a compounding pharmacy that I still use on occasion. It gave me the will to keep going. They told me that most people feel pleasantly relaxed during the infusions. Well, not my terrified brain! Now I have no problem with the spray because I'm used to the effects. I hope this will happen with the mushrooms.

Doctors have had me on a lot of meds in the past that they insisted would help but either did nothing or made me feel much worse.

I'm trying absolutely everything to get better and so meditation and exercise will be on my agenda. I've made schedules every day for myself to follow detailing every hour of what I'll be doing. They're pretty relaxed but I find that it helps me see what I've been working on and tweak my days so that I'm able to fit helpful activities in.

I can't tell you how grateful I am to notice that the mushrooms have had a positive effect. To be honest, I didn't really have that much hope because I thought my brain had passed the point of no return. The worst thing for me was that most of my life I've based everything I do around simple pleasures like making art, cooking, reading, learning, etc. and I thought those were things I'd always have access to. Wrong! Anhedonia can take away all of that.


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InvisibleNiffla
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 46,483
Loc: Texas
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: nooneman]
    #26616517 - 04/20/20 10:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Fear and nausea are common when coming up on mushrooms.




Yep. Same with LSD of course.

I think with mushrooms and LSD I usually give myself a full two hours before I settle in. The come up is just rough ride for me. I've done it a zillion times but it is still hard for me. I can't focus or follow anything. Mind is in a million places at once. All I can do is sit there and wait until things smooth out...which takes time.

I guess I may be settled in quicker on the mushrooms if I lemon tek'd, but LSD for example, the moment I put it on my tongue I basically have to grind my way through basically a full two hours before I consider myself past the come up stage.


--------------------


HAIL OUR NEW OTD KING


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InvisibleAcuriousmycologist
"Asking for a friend"
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/07/18
Posts: 751
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: DeckardCain]
    #26616568 - 04/20/20 11:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeckardCain said:
i feel for me the nausea makes me think ive poisoned myself lol great




Oh my gosh, I think this EVERY time, I've made some awful mistake and I'm dying.

I have read lemon balm is good in a tea to help the anxiety.

It's also an opportunity to learn to tolerate what feels intolerable, make it out the other side, and know you could deal with it even when you felt you couldn't.


--------------------
We're all mentally ill. We're all delusional. We're all junkies. It's just a matter of degree
(the Venerable Robina Curtin)

Anything I say here is a fiction, for role play or research only. Full of bollocks I am. I wouldn't believe me.


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OfflineMorky
Stranger


Registered: 02/01/20
Posts: 55
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: Acuriousmycologist]
    #26616822 - 04/21/20 05:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Posting just so I can follow this thread and find it again at a later date.

Another sufferer of treatment resistant depression here. About 30 years now.

Amazed by the kindness shown to complete strangers on this forum. A little of my faith in humanity has  been restored.

Best of luck OP


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OfflineTheEschatologist
Stranger

Registered: 02/22/18
Posts: 354
Last seen: 19 days, 14 hours
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: Morky]
    #26617629 - 04/21/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We're all rooting for you OP. Depression doesn't have to be a life sentence (DJ Ed me and others here are proof of that), you just need to find the right tool set that works for you. If the kratom helps you don't drop it just because i say so. It gives me terrible aftereffects because i abused it, same with alcohol and phenibut etc. YMMV - it's probably not so bad if you don't have addictive tendencies.

Last year i made a bunch of posts in a thread about my depression and psychedelics. If you feel inclined to skim through there you may find a few helpful tidbits. Feel free to PM me if you have questions about anything there or here.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26281654

All the best with your journey,
TE

By the way another book that's relevant to working with fear is "The Psychedelic Experience" by Leary et al. It's a bit of a classic these days and more spiritually orientated (Buddhism mainly) if you're into that sort of thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychedelic_Experience


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OfflinePsion
Sage
Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #26618837 - 04/21/20 09:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

actually i found 1b-lsd to be pretty easy on the stomach, though other psychs were all rough. dmt the most so, with mescaline being less nausea intensity but far longer duration, and shroom tea being a crapshot but usually some.

there's always ginger, dramamine, or you can try wearing sea-bands to help reduce nausea. or all the above - as far as i know none of them conflict with each other. if you're really sensitive like me and taking a high dose though, sometimes its still not enough lol. oral dmt is a big meanie during the come up. :lol:


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OfflineRyan_Spalding2727
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Male
Registered: 11/21/13
Posts: 71
Last seen: 8 months, 19 days
Re: Anxiety, nausea during first half of trip [Re: Psion]
    #26621304 - 04/23/20 01:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I feel you on the ketamine infusions, they can get pretty out there and scary at times. I find that my natural thoughts tend to redirect the experience many many Times throughout the infusion though, so what is unpleasant at one minute can quickly change to glorious at the next... I always seem to tap into some sort of “hidden potential” type feeling during them as well, but that could just be the anti-depressant aspect of it all. I’m actually going in for another infusion in about 8 hours, so we’ll see how this one goes. My wife can always tell a big difference about a day or two later, and that alone makes it worth it to me...

I apologize in advance if this post has jacked your thread lol. Best of luck on your journey:heart:


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