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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26607256 - 04/17/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
I thought this thread was about the timing between trips, not dehydrators?





It was, but it dovetailed into this when potency issues came up with regard to tripping multiple times. In truth, everyone else is discussing this issue intelligently with me, and giving me good advice. But one person just keeps trolling my thread, derailing it completely. Seriously, Endiku, with all due respect, find someone else to argue with. This topic itself is fine I think.

We can go back into talking about timing between trips, as I think I got all the information I need from pretty much everyone else on this side tangent.

Edit: By the way, I don't mind people arguing, debating, or disagreeing with me. You want to disagree with me? You think I'm wrong? Great. Sometimes debate can lead to greater truth. But at least offer discourse not trolling, is all I'm asking. (Not that you are trolling lol) Thankfully, most everyone in here has given good information, even those correcting me in this forum when I have been wrong. There's nothing wrong with him or you or others disagreeing with me or one another. But I asked in several times very cordially to clarify his position and point to precisely where I was getting it wrong. He refused and continued to troll.


Edited by LSA Woodrose (04/17/20 05:39 AM)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607260 - 04/17/20 05:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For years, I fanned dried my harvests for about 5 days, hanging in racks, then moved to a large desiccant chamber for a few more days. This would take the relative humidity down to 10%. So this method never got them “cracker” dry, but clearly dry enough, because I have some 5 year old stocks in the freezer that are still sound.

But over a week drying in air is clearly losing potency, and is not very discreet (daughter almost 15 now, getting harder to hide). Dehydrator is one of the best gadgets I’ve bought; as I said, a full flush dried, without chopping up, in under 4 hours. The result are cracker dry mushrooms, that I can literally turn to powder between by fingers. By 4 hours, all stored in individual sealed bags with desiccant pouch in each, then all those put inside an airtight container with more desiccant, in the fridge.

Lock down boredom has set in now. And even though I have great methods for storing dry, and fresh - ice cubes, I’m going to have a go at an alcohol extraction. Gonna use up all my old freezer stocks.....

Mush love
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26607267 - 04/17/20 05:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
For years, I fanned dried my harvests for about 5 days, hanging in racks, then moved to a large desiccant chamber for a few more days. This would take the relative humidity down to 10%. So this method never got them “cracker” dry, but clearly dry enough, because I have some 5 year old stocks in the freezer that are still sound.




There are a lot of people who still use this method, from what I have read all over the web.

This is why I went down this rabbit hole in this thread. Many people are posting, even in this forum, that these dehydrators aren't effective and you lose potency. For the record, I DO NOT think that's the case. But I just figured I would try out holding off on drying a mere few days just to make absolute sure. I never said it was empirical or absolute.

And LMAO your sobering post about an entire flush being impotent was...well, sobering to say the very least, my friend.

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
But over a week drying in air is clearly losing potency, and is not very discreet (daughter almost 15 now, getting harder to hide). Dehydrator is one of the best gadgets I’ve bought; as I said, a full flush dried, without chopping up, in under 4 hours. The result are cracker dry mushrooms, that I can literally turn to powder between by fingers. By 4 hours, all stored in individual sealed bags with desiccant pouch in each, then all those put inside an airtight container with more desiccant, in the fridge.




Like I said, next drying batch I will try 4 hours first, thanks so much for the tip!

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Lock down boredom has set in now. And even though I have great methods for storing dry, and fresh - ice cubes, I’m going to have a go at an alcohol extraction. Gonna use up all my old freezer stocks.....
Mush love
DJ Ed




Do you have fresh and dried on hand to eat?


I guess my takeaway from this, based on your post before last, is that even if it turns out my batch I dried is completely beat, that what you are saying is NOT to automatically blame the dehydrator and assume its faulty. Thanks! :mushroom2:


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607288 - 04/17/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It won’t be the dehydrator causing the potency loss. Tho, I am very understanding and in favor of a person testing things to find out for themselves.

If we are speaking of potency loss from the drying process... I think the method itself won’t matter much as the time period between harvest and fully dry. But, As you noted, some people are satisfied with air drying for a week. So, even then, it isn’t like ALL potency is lost by using less efficient methods.

If you have a whole run of bunk/superweak shrooms, it’s the genetics. Happens every once and awhile. #metoo

Question: how hot do you think the dehydrator would have to get to destroy the Psilocybin, or what do you think an appropriate minimum temp would be?


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26607296 - 04/17/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
It won’t be the dehydrator causing the potency loss. Tho, I am very understanding and in favor of a person testing things to find out for themselves.




There is definitely a debate going on about this, to be honest. Although, it does seem like the vast majority of people in this forum and all over the web agree with you guys about these electric dehydrators being both highly effective and maintaining all or most of the potency. It seems like, if I had to guess, that of people debating this, maybe 75% or even more agree with you. So my instincts tell me that you are absolutely right.

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
If we are speaking of potency loss from the drying process... I think the method itself won’t matter much as the time period between harvest and fully dry. But, As you noted, some people are satisfied with air drying for a week. So, even then, it isn’t like ALL potency is lost by using less efficient methods.




I'm sure this is probably true. Also, there is another wrinkle, and please correct me if I'm wrong here. The proponents of drying with these dehydrators claim that it isn't the heat that destroys the psilocybin, but oxygen. If that's true, and I'm interpreting this correctly, then air drying may actually be a bad choice. Since the shrooms are exposed to a lot more oxygen while drying.

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
If you have a whole run of bunk/superweak shrooms, it’s the genetics. Happens every once and awhile. #metoo




lol Didn't know that the Shrooms culture had a Me Too movement. But, yeah, I take your point. As DJ Ed also said, even if I get a crap trip this weekends, I think what you guys are saying is that I should not blame the dehydrator, since its probably the genetics, and has nothing to do with the heat.

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Question: how hot do you think the dehydrator would have to get to destroy the Psilocybin, or what do you think an appropriate minimum temp would be?




My dehydrator has only one setting, and from everything I can ascertain, its 173 or 177 degrees. lol I always forget which one. Anyway, from what I have read, and I could be waaay off here, is that psilocybin is not very heat labile. Meaning it will not break down with heat that low.

Many people also cite the fact that they make tea, and boiling water is at least 35 degrees hotter than these electric dehydrators. Where the heat supposedly hurts a little is that psilocyn is reputed to be a lot more heat labile, and is said to break down even with moderate heat.

Again, this is NOT me saying anything with authority. Its only what I have read.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607388 - 04/17/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ah.... I just had an random thought.

And this is just speculation on my part. But, I am wondering if the folks who haven’t had good luck with dehydrators are actually getting them dry enough for longer term storage?

My first grow ever I used the oven to dry them, they stayed good and potent for about a year before I used them up. My second grow I bought a dehydrator and got them to what seemed like “cracker dry”, however, after about a week or so in the bag they were bendy again..... I didn’t do anything about it, and after a month or so, they were far less potent than the original doses. I was eating 6g just to get a mild trip. This could easily be counted up to genetic crapshoot and unlucky handfuls as well, they were multispore and I did not homogenize. But, it did cause me to worry more about residual moisture than heat.

So, I don’t really know if it’s connected scientifically, But, since then, I dry them super cracker dry, like obsessively dry.  I will still put em in the oven at 200-220 for like 10-20 mins to try and drive off the last bits of moisture after using my cheapo dehydrator( should just upgrade ). Desiccant pack in each bag that’s put up for storage also.


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26607415 - 04/17/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Ah.... I just had an random thought.

And this is just speculation on my part. But, I am wondering if the folks who haven’t had good luck with dehydrators are actually getting them dry enough for longer term storage?




I wondered that myself. When I was perusing this and many other sites and forums, I will say that in almost every thread or topic about these dehydrators, there was always at least one proponent of this method staunchly admonishing people to make certain their product is cracker-dry before putting the batch into storage. There always seems to be some very detailed descriptions of how to tell if they truly are dry enough. Although, given that a lot of people only sort of scan posts and threads, its very possible you are 100% correct, and people either don't bother researching this enough before slamming their shrooms on the trays, or they just scan the threads and posts and miss the part about times to dry on dehydrators and how to tell if they are dry.

Another thing, along the lines you brought up, is perhaps people are drying correctly but have very poor storage habits, and this could cause problems, particularly if the area they are stored in is more damp than they might realize.

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
My first grow ever I used the oven to dry them, they stayed good and potent for about a year before I used them up. My second grow I bought a dehydrator and got them to what seemed like “cracker dry”, however, after about a week or so in the bag they were bendy again..... I didn’t do anything about it, and after a month or so, they were far less potent than the original doses. I was eating 6g just to get a mild trip. This could easily be counted up to genetic crapshoot and unlucky handfuls as well, they were multispore and I did not homogenize. But, it did cause me to worry more about residual moisture than heat.

So, I don’t really know if it’s connected scientifically, But, since then, I dry them super cracker dry, like obsessively dry.  I will still put em in the oven at 200-220 for like 10-20 mins to try and drive off the last bits of moisture after using my cheapo dehydrator( should just upgrade ). Desiccant pack in each bag that’s put up for storage also.




I use dessicants, too. I have a batch of 20 left from all my supplement/herbal powders I encapsulate and store. A lot of people from what I can see use an oven to dry, as you used to and still do, to sort of top off. I am seriously looking forward to seeing what a dose of about 2.25 (9 capsules) will do as far as effect this weekend. I decided to put off my Saturday (tomorrow) trip until Sunday. I love bicycle riding when I trip, and tomorrow is going to be very wet, while Sunday is going to be beautiful and sunny with temperatures about 10 degrees higher.


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607431 - 04/17/20 07:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It’s the form tht psilocybin and especially psilocin are in, that affects what temperatures they degrade at. Someone like PrimalSoup is much better qualified to comment on this, so I’ll not go into too much (incorrect) detail. But where we are talking making tea, or air drying mushrooms, you are looking at way over 200degC, 450degF before psilocin is affected.

Your dehydrator 1-off setting, LSA, is perfect; 170F equates to 70C, which is what I dry at. You’ll do an entire crop in 4 hours. It does have a fan going in it, your dehydrator, I presume?

Now folks, here is something I’m finding rather interesting on psilocin loss to oxygen. The shroomery Doseage calculator has a nominal figure for psilocin lost during drying set at 80%. So presumably when I used to air dry for a week, that’s where my 80% went to. But I’ve never noticed any loss of potency in my dried mushrooms. Now this is where it gets interesting; recently froze mushroom tea in ice cube trays. But when frozen I did not seal the ice cubes from oxygen. They had lost most of their potency in under two weeks in the freezer. Do you consider, that because the psilocin was frozen, it was MORE susceptible to oxygen? Weeksmafter thawing and pouring down the sink two flushes worth of Mazatapec tea, I’m still gob-smacked that I lost my frozen crops to oxygen :sad:

Take care all
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607436 - 04/17/20 08:01 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

And here’s something else. I’m wondering if those people who dehydrated mushrooms, only to find them bendy again and degrading in under a week. I wonder if they stored the “cracker dry” mushrooms while they were still warm. Because if they did, upon cooling, water vapour would condense back on to the mushrooms, making them bendy.

I always wait for the mushrooms to cool to room temperature before moving them to bags and storing. And always use desiccant sachets in the baggies and tubs....

Just a thought fellas
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26607462 - 04/17/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
It’s the form tht psilocybin and especially psilocin are in, that affects what temperatures they degrade at. Someone like PrimalSoup is much better qualified to comment on this, so I’ll not go into too much (incorrect) detail. But where we are talking making tea, or air drying mushrooms, you are looking at way over 200degC, 450degF before psilocin is affected.




I haven't read the rest of both your posts yet, but I wanted to ask this first: to clarify, did you mean that you had to reach those temps before psilocybin is effected? Because my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it isn't the psilocybin at  temperatures below 450 degrees F that's degraded. Because it isn't as heat labile as psilocin. In my limited understanding, I believe that at temps even as low as our dehydrators, the psilocin is degraded, though nobody seems to know quite how much, whether its 100% gone of a smaller percentage lost.

(Okay, back to reading the rest of your posts)


Edited by LSA Woodrose (04/17/20 08:25 AM)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607493 - 04/17/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’ll let the experts confirm, but it’s not the heat that degrades the psilocin, it is the air. Not at the temperatures we are talking, anyway. Psilocybin is less affected by the air, so again talking approximations, you only lose about 20%.

Correction to my above post: you lose 50% psilocin and 20% psilocybin, during drying, to the air. Nothing is lost to the heat.

Hope this helps
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26607502 - 04/17/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
I’ll let the experts confirm, but it’s not the heat that degrades the psilocin, it is the air. Not at the temperatures we are talking, anyway. Psilocybin is less affected by the air, so again talking approximations, you only lose about 20%.

Correction to my above post: you lose 50% psilocin and 20% psilocybin, during drying, to the air. Nothing is lost to the heat.

Hope this helps
DJ Ed




Ah okay, I wasn't aware of that. I thought you lost at least psilocin due to heat. Good info, thanks.


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OfflineEnkidu
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607518 - 04/17/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Bro your trip from the dried mushrooms in no way will have anything to do with the dehydrator itself or using a dehydrator to dry them.

Imo thats an important point which was worth me taking my time to say.

I thought you would realize and help you better understand wtf is going on.

Your reaponse indicated to me not to waste any more time, you didnt seem to get what i was saying or wanted to hear it. So i was ready to let it go "by all means, continue"

Idk wtf is with all the disrespectful shit or the condescending shit talking.

Not really my thing.

So thats it man.

The dehydrator itself and drying the mushrooms in it will not impact your experience which will be impacted in a much stronger way by other things...

I really dont like spending time doing shit like this. I have a full time job and a baby at home and no time as it is to waste arguing about why i said what i said.

Im not really one to troll.

You dry them in the dehydrator till they are cracker dry. Like a chip. If you bend it it should snap. No set time. Different mushrooms and the number in there will determine time.

Ive tripped at least 100 times and grown lbs of mushrooms. So idk, you can acknowledge me sharing my exp or not, idc.

You'll figure it out yourself i guess


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26607606 - 04/17/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Your dehydrator 1-off setting, LSA, is perfect; 170F equates to 70C, which is what I dry at. You’ll do an entire crop in 4 hours. It does have a fan going in it, your dehydrator, I presume?




Yeah the consensus seems to be that the dehydrator I have is fine. Although, I seem to remember last week when I was drying that 4 hours was nowhere near enough. However, I may have been wrong. So when I start drying my current harvest(s) I will try seeing what they are like after 4 hours. It seems like most people recommend 24 hours with these things. The disparity between the times is definitely interesting, though. 

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Now folks, here is something I’m finding rather interesting on psilocin loss to oxygen. The shroomery Doseage calculator has a nominal figure for psilocin lost during drying set at 80%. So presumably when I used to air dry for a week, that’s where my 80% went to. But I’ve never noticed any loss of potency in my dried mushrooms. Now this is where it gets interesting; recently froze mushroom tea in ice cube trays. But when frozen I did not seal the ice cubes from oxygen. They had lost most of their potency in under two weeks in the freezer. Do you consider, that because the psilocin was frozen, it was MORE susceptible to oxygen? Weeksmafter thawing and pouring down the sink two flushes worth of Mazatapec tea, I’m still gob-smacked that I lost my frozen crops to oxygen :sad:




Yeah, that totally sucks, man! I'm surprised that so much of the active ingredients would be lost to Oxygen while frozen. That I had no idea.

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
And here’s something else. I’m wondering if those people who dehydrated mushrooms, only to find them bendy again and degrading in under a week. I wonder if they stored the “cracker dry” mushrooms while they were still warm. Because if they did, upon cooling, water vapour would condense back on to the mushrooms, making them bendy.

I always wait for the mushrooms to cool to room temperature before moving them to bags and storing. And always use desiccant sachets in the baggies and tubs....

Just a thought fellas
DJ Ed




Well that's an interesting thought I hadn't even considered. By the way, I put all my dried shrooms right into the mason jar as soon as they were done dehydrating. I think in the future, I will wait until they cool, as your premise sounds logical. Additionally, you are making me glad that I only did that with one mason jar's worth of dried. Basically a hair under an ounce.


I am pretty confident that I will eat them over time long before they deteriorate.

I am going to check my mason jar now and make sure they are still cracker dry in there!


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #26607608 - 04/17/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

See, LSA?

Enkidu apologized.

Now we can all sleep better tonight.

:grin:


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26607696 - 04/17/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
See, LSA?

Enkidu apologized.

Now we can all sleep better tonight.

:grin:




Sorry for the off topic here, but ROFLMAO!!!!



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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26607801 - 04/17/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You use desiccant pouches, so I wouldn’t worry :thumbup:
Cheers
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26607812 - 04/17/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
You use desiccant pouches, so I wouldn’t worry :thumbup:
Cheers
DJ Ed




Agreed, but I took your earlier post to heart anyway, and I checked the bottle that has about 23 grams of dried Costa Rico left, after putting 6 grams into capsules. They were very dry. The caps powdered up with the slightest pressure, and the stems cracked easily like uber-dry twigs. So you're certainly right.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26608280 - 04/17/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Ah.... I just had an random thought.

And this is just speculation on my part. But, I am wondering if the folks who haven’t had good luck with dehydrators are actually getting them dry enough for longer term storage?

My first grow ever I used the oven to dry them, they stayed good and potent for about a year before I used them up. My second grow I bought a dehydrator and got them to what seemed like “cracker dry”, however, after about a week or so in the bag they were bendy again..... I didn’t do anything about it, and after a month or so, they were far less potent than the original doses. I was eating 6g just to get a mild trip. This could easily be counted up to genetic crapshoot and unlucky handfuls as well, they were multispore and I did not homogenize. But, it did cause me to worry more about residual moisture than heat.

So, I don’t really know if it’s connected scientifically, But, since then, I dry them super cracker dry, like obsessively dry.  I will still put em in the oven at 200-220 for like 10-20 mins to try and drive off the last bits of moisture after using my cheapo dehydrator( should just upgrade ). Desiccant pack in each bag that’s put up for storage also.




Basically, if you get all the water out and store them completely sealed off with minimal air they kept pretty much forever.  But they absorb water from air so storage must keep it out.  And if they aren't fully dry the oxidization proceeds to degrade the actives over time. :cookiemonster:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Space Between Shroom Trips [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26608315 - 04/17/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
But when frozen I did not seal the ice cubes from oxygen. They had lost most of their potency in under two weeks in the freezer.




Is it possible the freezer went through a defrost cycle or two, which would allow the ice cubes to melt?  I have trouble seeing how frozen ice cubes, even exposed to constant frozen air, would suffer from anything more than gradually withering away. There shouldn't be any oxygen transmission into the bulk of the cubes.  But I've never tried this, I'm still trying to figure out to set up a small-dose storage in the freezer without it being ridiculous.  May just want to dry what I use for that... :shrug:


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