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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary?
#26606032 - 04/16/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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For growing shiitake in a bag log / oysters Could I have my sub mixed with boiling water in an insulated cooler- wipe the inside of the growing bag with 70% iso Filling the bag with sub in open air and tying it off without doing any additional measures? Then opening the bag in an SAB and adding grain spawn and sealing the bag then allowing it to sit on shelf into fruiting conditions
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606239 - 04/16/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Real talk any way around bulk pasteurization ?
Could a 120 qt cooler with a temp controller and water at the bottom be used to run multiple bags in? Or heat pad under neath? Some sort of sous vous method?
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AndyHinton


Registered: 12/05/16
Posts: 434
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606431 - 04/16/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hi. You really need an autoclave. A Presto PC runs about $80 but it's worth investing in an All-American autoclave that will last for years, handle 15 psi with room to spare, and form a real vacuum when it cools.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606435 - 04/16/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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It all depends on what you are wanting to grow. If you are wanting to grow mainly mold and bacteria you can do it that way just fine. We do not sterilize the sub bags because we want to wast time and add steps. We do it because it is necessary.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: AndyHinton]
#26606443 - 04/16/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
AndyHinton said: Hi. You really need an autoclave. A Presto PC runs about $80 but it's worth investing in an All-American autoclave that will last for years, handle 15 psi with room to spare, and form a real vacuum when it cools.
I do not agree with the above statement. A presto PC is all you need. If you keep going you will end up building a 55-gallon steamer and you will only use the PC for agar work.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606454 - 04/16/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
brindle foxx said: Real talk any way around bulk pasteurization ?
Could a 120 qt cooler with a temp controller and water at the bottom be used to run multiple bags in? Or heat pad under neath? Some sort of sous vous method?
Like I said above build a steamer if you want to do multiple bags. Check my signature for a parts list and help with the electrical. If you need more help PM me. I will help.
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AndyHinton


Registered: 12/05/16
Posts: 434
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606490 - 04/16/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have an All-American 25 qt and an offer to buy an 41 qt used. But I want to see if he has a 25 qt to sell instead because that size fits any gas stove. Each run can fit 12 pint bottles, 9 pints per compact 30 qt tote, 12 totes per closet, it's exponential.
I've seen a bus-sized autoclave at a commercial farm. 90% of what I personally sterilize, being more lab oriented, is agar, broth, toothpicks, swabs, special medium, etc. The other 10% is substrate when I take a weekend to make bulk recipes.
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606540 - 04/16/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Quote:
brindle foxx said: Real talk any way around bulk pasteurization ?
Could a 120 qt cooler with a temp controller and water at the bottom be used to run multiple bags in? Or heat pad under neath? Some sort of sous vous method?
Like I said above build a steamer if you want to do multiple bags. Check my signature for a parts list and help with the electrical. If you need more help PM me. I will help.
i’m just starting out with the gourmet side of things and my pressure cooker isn’t going to hold many 5Lb bags. I’ve seen it done with a large cooler but yes a drum would be great I’ll have to look over your tek.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606623 - 04/16/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm just saying you can build 2 steamers for the price of an All American. And I don't have to worry about watching it. It is PID controlled so all I do is push a button and walk away. I come back in a couple of days and 60 bags are ready to be inoculated.
You can put a PID on a PC also. My PC sounds an alarm to let me know it has cooled down to 140F so I can pour my agar.
I made a high powered hot plate for my PC from a stove I got from craigslist for free. It takes 240V though.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (04/16/20 08:39 PM)
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606652 - 04/16/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I'm just saying you can build 2 steamers for the price of an All American. And I don't have to worry about watching it. It is PID controlled so all I do is push a button and walk away. I come back in a couple of days and 60 bags are ready to be inoculated.
You can put a PID on a PC also. My PC sounds an alarm to let me know it has cooled down to 140F so I can pour my agar.
How are you knoccing up that many bags? With spawn or syringe?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606698 - 04/16/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I use a mixture of whole oats and millet for my spawn. The real trick is to use a 4 oz spoodle for 5 to 6 lb bags and an 8 oz spoodle for 10 to 12 lb bags. I place the spoodle in a spawn bag and seal the bag with a Releasable cable tie and steam it with your sub bags and you have a sterilized tool to inoculate your bags with.
4 oz spoodle...
https://www.amazon.com/Winco-FPS-4-Solid-Portioner-4-Ounce/dp/B004UN8B72/ref=sr_1_1?crid=207Q3W3X4QYR7&dchild=1&keywords=4+oz+spoodle&qid=1587091708&sprefix=4+oz+spoo%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
8 oz spoodle...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-ounce-Spoodle-Portion-Control-Spoon-Ladle-Server-Blue-Handle-Choose-Style/193049445548?hash=item2cf2a4c4ac:m:mdJipIoDuxe0V_wdCw4l2jA
Releasable cable ties...
https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Releasable-cable-50LBS-100pcs/dp/B004C4ZRIK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=200EK798IOMN8&dchild=1&keywords=monoprice+cable+ties&qid=1587091602&sprefix=monoprice+cabl%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-5
I use the ties for my sub bags also. They are faster than an impulse sealer and way cheaper. They also make it easy to get the air out of the bags before you place them in the fruiting chamber. Release the tie press out the air and reseal.
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606731 - 04/16/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I use a mixture of whole oats and millet for my spawn. The real trick is to use a 4 oz spoodle for 5 to 6 lb bags and an 8 oz spoodle for 10 to 12 lb bags. I place the spoodle in a spawn bag and seal the bag with a Releasable cable tie and steam it with your sub bags and you have a sterilized tool to inoculate your bags with.
4 oz spoodle...
https://www.amazon.com/Winco-FPS-4-Solid-Portioner-4-Ounce/dp/B004UN8B72/ref=sr_1_1?crid=207Q3W3X4QYR7&dchild=1&keywords=4+oz+spoodle&qid=1587091708&sprefix=4+oz+spoo%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
8 oz spoodle...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-ounce-Spoodle-Portion-Control-Spoon-Ladle-Server-Blue-Handle-Choose-Style/193049445548?hash=item2cf2a4c4ac:m:mdJipIoDuxe0V_wdCw4l2jA
Releasable cable ties...
https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Releasable-cable-50LBS-100pcs/dp/B004C4ZRIK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=200EK798IOMN8&dchild=1&keywords=monoprice+cable+ties&qid=1587091602&sprefix=monoprice+cabl%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-5
I use the ties for my sub bags also. They are faster than an impulse sealer and way cheaper. They also make it easy to get the air out of the bags before you place them in the fruiting chamber. Release the tie press out the air and reseal.
Thanks for the tip just so I’m clear on the process
You make a bag of your grain and put spoodle in and toss it in to sterilize with the sub bags. Then you are adding agar to your grain spawn bag afterwards? Waiting for it to colonize then adding to each sub bag one by one in front of flow hood/sab?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606790 - 04/16/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, I make my spawn and usually use my PC to sterilize the grains. I then do a G2G (grain to grain) transfer to inoculate my new bags. I only go back to my master slant and use agar when I start to see diminished yields.
To sterilize the spoodle I take an empty spawn bag and place the spoodle in the bag. I seal the bag with the ties I showed you. The ties can be PC'ed without a problem. Then I place my sub bags in my steamer along with the empty spawn bag with the spoodle in it and steam everything. Then when I am done inoculating my sub bags. I use the spawn that is left over to inoculate my new spawn bags that I PC'ed thus the G2G transfer. I keep doing this until I see a diminished yield then I go back to my master slant and start it all again.
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DigitalRhizae
Stranger



Registered: 06/03/17
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606800 - 04/16/20 09:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd just like to mention that you can do what OP wants as long as you aren't supplementing and you have grain spawn that is fully colonized. You wouldn't even need to do the inoculating of the substrate bags in a SAB just as long as its NOT supplemented. Straight sawdust and colonized grain spawn is fine with open air and properly pasteurized unsupplemented substrate. I've done this cooler method and boiling water with both straw and sawdust with success. But if you want to supplement than you need to follow Shroomsisay advice.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
#26606817 - 04/16/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why would you do that though? You will get small flushes. The best advice is to do it right and be happy with the results. I can build a steamer for under $200 and buy a PC for under $90. If he is selling the mushrooms he will have his money back in no time.
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
#26606829 - 04/16/20 09:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DigitalRhizae said: I'd just like to mention that you can do what OP wants as long as you aren't supplementing and you have grain spawn that is fully colonized. You wouldn't even need to do the inoculating of the substrate bags in a SAB just as long as its NOT supplemented. Straight sawdust and colonized grain spawn is fine with open air and properly pasteurized unsupplemented substrate. I've done this cooler method and boiling water with both straw and sawdust with success. But if you want to supplement than you need to follow Shroomsisay advice.
I was looking to keep it simple and organic as possible straight sawdust for shiitake and straw for oysters nothing else added into them. After transferring rye/oat grain that’s colonized into each bag I would sit it on a shelf and do 12/12 light cycle and keep humidity and temp to it’s needs. Can you elaborate further on your method for pasteurizing in the cooler, how many bags and lbs per bag?
Also at which point do I start cutting holes in the bag ?
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606834 - 04/16/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Why would you do that though? You will get small flushes. The best advice is to do it right and be happy with the results. I can build a steamer for under $200 and buy a PC for under $90. If he is selling the mushrooms he will have his money back in no time.
Why would the flushes be small?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606849 - 04/16/20 09:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't mean to answer a question with a question. But why do you think people supplement their sub bags? Do you think they get bigger flushes when they supplement? There is nothing not organic about supplementing. Adding a soy hull supplement or a wheat bran supplement it is still organic because it is all-natural.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (04/16/20 10:02 PM)
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606866 - 04/16/20 10:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I don't mean to answer a question with a question. But why do you think people supplement their sub bags? Do you think they get bigger flushes when they supplement?
I kind of chalk it up to people just doing things their own way. When dealing with agar,lc, bulk subs, grain spawn, pf tek jars when dealing with Active mushrooms i’ve kept it simple and never added casings/liners/gypsum etc
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606875 - 04/16/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I understand and I appreciate that. But anyone not supplementing is having a hard time getting profitable. I add a few pennies of supplement and get dollars of return. What's the old saying "if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make cents (sense)"
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (04/16/20 10:28 PM)
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brindle foxx
Doing it my way



Registered: 11/11/18
Posts: 420
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26606884 - 04/16/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I understand and I appreciate that. But anyone not supplementing is having a hard time getting profitable. I add a few pennies of supplement and get dollars of return. What's the old saying "if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make cents."
What supps are you using?
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DigitalRhizae
Stranger



Registered: 06/03/17
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: brindle foxx]
#26606932 - 04/16/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Why would you do that though? You will get small flushes. The best advice is to do it right and be happy with the results. I can build a steamer for under $200 and buy a PC for under $90. If he is selling the mushrooms he will have his money back in no time.
Hobby and easier for a large bulk amount with minimal supplies. Lack of space to build a bulk steamer too. But I really want to and would do what you are doing if I had a business or even if just for a hobby if I had the space. But aleon was getting pretty good results with his lions mane on just sawdust if I recall correctly.
Quote:
brindle foxx said: I was looking to keep it simple and organic as possible straight sawdust for shiitake and straw for oysters nothing else added into them. After transferring rye/oat grain that’s colonized into each bag I would sit it on a shelf and do 12/12 light cycle and keep humidity and temp to it’s needs. Can you elaborate further on your method for pasteurizing in the cooler, how many bags and lbs per bag?
Also at which point do I start cutting holes in the bag ?
I think I documented it in my journal the best I could. Essentially I tried to estimate the filed capacity of 1 liter of sawdust and multipled that by how much substrate I wanted in total. Filled coolers with that much sawdust and boiled that much water and once the water boiled I dumped it into the coolers, put a meat thermometer in there, sealed them up the best I could and started the timer for the required time when it reached pasteurization temperatures. For the straw I did the RR method but used the coolers instead of large plastic totes. If I recall correctly boiling the water was too much because the coolers did a pretty good job of keeping the temperature in and they pasteurized too hot, about 180f. So heating the water to about that would be better. Holes are made after inoculation which is pretty typical for unsupplemented substrates. But I believe I covered them up with a bag to increase the co2 during colonization.
But still supplementing is the way to go if you have the space and materials for it.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Is pressure cooking or pasteurizing mushroom bags with sub necessary? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
#26607074 - 04/17/20 01:05 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I started with this recipe...

https://www.truevalue.com/chicken-manure-25-lb
Now I use soy hulls and fuel pellets (Masters Mix)
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