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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... * 3
    #26601179 - 04/14/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Covid-19 & what we don't want to know...about our species...
But do want to know about the biological science behind virus evolution, & how we got to this situation...
Indeed this is fact based science, ** but does:  "contain graphic human and animal footage",
and it really does take some perseverance to face these documented truths.
.      -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
I have gone back & added a link to the references in the unlikely event that anyone is actually interested

** 22 pages of referenced Science articles here:

https://brandfolder.com/s/q7nyq6-cc6c08-57sux2

Because
it is unfortunately often the case, that some folks or posters attack what they do not understand, without even doing the material presented the favor of actually reading or viewing it, and in this case the views presented are not just those of the OP, & Michael Greger, MD, but are also based on vast research, which is documented.  Since this is the case, obviously anyone interested might want to take this into account. There is no point in my adding more material at the end of the thread for obvious reasons. Hence this.

End of April 18th edit.

.      -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

if you  do choose  to watch  & learn - I suggest bumping up the speed (1.25 seems better), as it seems years ago the Doctor talked much s l o w e r  than he does now, (or the video got slowed down somehow, although the pitch seems fairly normal? )

"Bringing you another one of my older presentations on pandemics as bonus video this week. This is about 9 years old, and provides good background on what we are experiencing today. While similar to the “Pandemics: History & Prevention” video we previously shared this video includes more information on mad cow disease, swine flu, and antibiotic use on factory farms."

"People think How Not to Die is my first book, but it’s actually my 4th. Before I started NutritionFacts.org I had a career as Public Health Director at HSUS specializing in emerging infectious diseases. I wrote a book on pandemic preparedness and prevention and am now updating that entire body of work and will be releasing a new book next month. Stay tuned for the release of How to Survive a Pandemic."

be&t=1&fbclid=IwAR1B9yHWkpcRfpcEJor2Ix6Sg608EindyvnxsdDp5ucebBJ_vBXL11XAyC4

"And if you missed my webinar last week, I’ll be going live on Thursday, April 16 at 12pm ET on Facebook, and 6pm ET on YouTube for special COVID-19 live Q&As, and I’m also working on a 2nd webinar for May. Be sure you’re subscribed to our e-newsletter to get all of the latest updates first: https://nutritionfacts.org/subscribe.
.....
Thanks for watching. ...
-Michael Greger, MD FACLM"


Edited by laughingdog (04/18/20 10:36 AM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26602510 - 04/15/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i started listening to the video, but then skimmed through it.

western medicine relies on all things that are readily apparent.  relying on the measurable evidence of disease, and treatments that can be demonstrated in a lab, does not hold the answers to what is not apparent.  the increasing rates of cancer, heart disease, stress-related conditions, and mental illness speaks to the fact that western medicine has failed to consider what is not apparent.  there is much to appreciate in the standard approach of western medicine, but western medicine has been on the scene a very short time relative to human history.  what the west calls alternative medicine, is the traditional medicine of eastern cultures.

disease cannot be analyzed through the lens of a microscope.  most medical science focuses on finding cures for diseases, by studying the disease its self.  however disease is not a condition, it is a state, so the conditions that favor the presence of the diseases should be investigated. if you want to see how a machine works, you analyze it's components.  humans are not machines.  the human organism functions with a unity that it's much greater than any individual sub-component. 

it is from nature that human beings emerged.  when food is consumed that is designed by nature, and that food is cultivated in a way that nature can sustain, the human being becomes in tune with the principals that keep health.  the works of Weston A. Price are the most through investigation of dietary variations among primitive populations.  he recorded extensive data about natives who deviated from their natural diets, and those who continued with their traditional way of eating.  with one exception, Price did not come across a single healthy group that consisted of a diet completely free of meat.  those who modernized their diet became susceptible to malignant disease, while in the populations who were truly primitive malignant diseases were almost never seen.

what's interesting, is if you apply a non-reductionist understanding to nutrition/digestion in the human organism,  there is evidence of inter-kingdom crosstalk between humans and gut microbiota through microRNAs.  we still do not know how many diseases or pathological conditions may be caused by the interplay between bacterial outer-membrane-vesicles and the human genome.  food is literally a source of gene-regulatory information.  humans share 50% of their DNA with plants.

in that case, what does eating a GMO food mean for gene expression?

in the future, the most advanced medicine, has applied to our current understanding of modern medicine, the principals of quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity.  i have this alternative time line, that i like to envision sometimes, where Einstein did not become a physicist, but instead became a medical doctor, and he turns modern medicine on it's head.  seeing problems clearly that no one else could see, and providing a solution.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26602581 - 04/15/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I checked with https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nutritionfacts-org/
and found that this science based site featuring Dr. Greger's ideas is  moderately pseudo scientific.



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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26602756 - 04/15/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

do you need to refer to a website everytime that you need input on where anothers ideas rank on the psudeo-science scale?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26602874 - 04/15/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yes, it makes a lot of sense since at least one in ten people have an idea in their heads, and 1 in 100 of those wants to share it making 8 million different possible ideas to share -

the famous ones number in the 100's, and usually someone has checked them out, saving me the effort of dragging through another person's confused world view.

However if laughingdog were presenting his own idea, rather than a boring video, I would spend the time to look into what he was sharing, as it is, the share is not personal, but since it is on forum, I thought I should at least add perspective, (not his and not mine, but balanced).


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26603127 - 04/15/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

.  That it is called "pseudo.",  most likely is because he also promotes a vegan diet, which bothers certain types of folks.
.  And when you find someone else to debunk it for you it saves you the trouble, of dealing with any of the actual information and possibly learning something.

.  As regards the science of how factory farming promotes virus evolution, and the numerous articles & other experts quoted, many of whom predicted, something similar to what is happening now; - by taking the easy way out, and doing what may look clever, you only cheat yourself of information, that will become known more and more as curious people begin to dig into the biological causes and effects, and the part played in this disaster by agri-business.
.    Agri-business's factory farms are actually starting to be regulated, because it is both unhealthy for both animals & humans, & because of the unimaginable cruelty involved. Furthermore to this day Agri-business is fighting regulation, simply for the sake of profit, with no regard for people or animals. This is undebatable fact. It is similar to the tobacco industry in this respect.
.  But the factory farm footage, in the video, does take some real guts  to watch. Its not like posting in some thread here, about "what is violence?" and generating more opinions, or many such similar threads.
.  Elsewhere the Chinese, wild meat, and live animals for meat, markets have been discussed, and their role explained. And they have been shut down to some degree, in some places. The data in this video helps round out the picture - not pleasant stuff, but unfortunately true.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26603321 - 04/15/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It may behoove you to know that I am familiar with (and "in agreeance" with some of) many (not all) of those concepts, So why explore this package further?

I have a hearing disability and tend not to watch videos if I can read a transcript or fair critique instead. Ergo when faced with a video only, I check snopes.com or mediabiasfactcheck.com and I would advise anyone to explore those islands of intellectual fairness.

I have my own sort of fringe mentality - why get closer to Greger's bouquet of fringe and core concepts, when all I want is simple discrete truths as I continue in my fringe area.

Anyway, how come he speaks so slowly


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26604839 - 04/16/20 04:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i didn't finish the video yet, but where is the logic in becoming a vegetarian/vegan as a solution to factory farming?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26605633 - 04/16/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not just one source, but one among many:

How One City Mayor Forced A Pork Giant To Close Its Virus-Stricken Plant

April 14, 20204:22 PM ET
Dan Charles

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/834470141/how-one-city-mayor-forced-a-pork-giant-to-close-its-virus-stricken-plant?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=science


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26605712 - 04/16/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
i didn't finish the video yet, but where is the logic in becoming a vegetarian/vegan as a solution to factory farming?




WTF ?  -- if you stop smoking cigarettes of course it won't stop "big tobacco" !

Nobody makes such a claim.

I will not try & promote vegetarianism or veganism.

.  For most of history Doctors have been as ignorant about nutrition as the public, especially the US public. Now there are a few MDs that know better. Their info is available for free on Youtube, for those who are interested, which is a relatively select group -- (however as the population is huge -- that's still a lot of people).
.    It turns out there is a lot of evidence, from a health point of view for both vegetarianism or veganism. But I have no interest (especially as a layman), in proselytizing or trying to change others. Whether it concerns meditation or diet or anything else. But I also have little interest in sugar coating truth in the event anyone is really sincerely interested in a topic, for which I can provide, source material from very educated professionals.
.    In the case of diet, it turns out that the polarization we find in the USA, (for example in wealth distribution, & political party loyalty, & so on) has also quietly also manifested in the health field. .
.    Much of the food in the USA is now so toxic, that health food stores (which were an oddity in before 1970) are now a main stream business: 'Whole Foods', etc..
.  Along with this, the health of the US public plummeted from this toxic diet giving rise to the obesity and diabetes epidemics. So the opposite polarity is that some smart MDs & scientists figured out some of the causes and effects. Their names & videos are on youtube. **
.  But be warned, anyone not having a motivation to change what they are used to, due to a health problem is unlikely firstly, to even find the information interesting, and secondly to make the effort to actually test the information within their own body, before forming an opinion that seems to justify rejecting it.  Most likely everyone's milage varies.
.  In the old Humphrey Bogart movies, the amount of cigarette smoking is amazing, as in many other movies of that era, --- society changes slowly. At one time public hangings were common in Europe --- society changes slowly. What seems odd today will become common in the future.
There is no need for me to push the river. I will long be dead when the glorious future arrives.:lol:

**
Dr. Michael Klaper
Neal D. Barnard,  M.D.
John A. McDougall, M.D.
Dean Michael Ornish, M.D., cardiologist
Joel Fuhrman, M.D.
Michael Greger, M.D.
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn
T. Colin Campbell Ph.D. (1961), biochemistry, nutrition, and microbiology, Cornell University
Garth Davis, MD


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26607195 - 04/17/20 03:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

do you think that governments will tell people what they can and cannot eat in the future?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26607446 - 04/17/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

By the way, this was sarcastic: " I will long be dead when the glorious future arrives.:lol: "
as the future never arrives. And when I'm dead I will have no problems, not 'mine' & not 'the world's'.

The video is not about veganism, it is about the fact that virus evolution on this scale is caused by human stupidity, greed, and cruelty.
It is about the fact that many experts and health organizations have predicted this sort of thing, a decade or more ago.
It is about the fact that this could easily be much worse.
It is about the fact that there will likely be repeats, as long as the powers that be keep their heads in the sand,
And when possibly a higher virulence (fatality rate) & a higher contagion rate combine in a single virus...(which is possible due to the unnatural conditions animals are kept in, which amount to conditions promoting rapid virus evolution)...
....At that point we will be lucky, to have much choice in what we eat, let alone anything to eat.

Like pollution, over population/urbanization  of most people, 3 mile island, Fuckashima & Chernoble, climate change, continual warfare, and so on - these are all the result of human stupidity, - all the result of the arrogance of our species, not signs of some apocalypse caused by the Devine.

By the way the forces of business, science, culture, government, and income already determine what we all eat. If it isn't available or affordable, or available (including whether its been altered by breeding/science), or socially acceptable - we don't eat it.
The "choices" in supermarkets are sort of an illusion.
As we now know, from what is in the Chinese "wet markets", what others eat is often very different from what most of us would ever want to eat, and these markets, are part of the virus problem - not just bushmeat (Africa & South America) and factory farming.

So everybody wanting to know when this will be over, is sort of naive, according to many experts.

Just as wondering when  "Brave new world" or "1984" or some sort of Sci-Fi dystopian future will arrive/ happen is sort of naive. They already, all have happened, they just look & feel a little different.
Because although we don't feel like the elites, and are occupied with day to day survival, socializing, or the desire for socializing, and the desire for future pleasures, we tend to ignore many realties, which is what elites have the luxury of doing.
We are all like the metaphorical frog that fails, to jump out of the water, as the temperature is very gradually raised to boiling-- (of course a real frog would jump out) -- but apparently humans don't.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26607505 - 04/17/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

you are hammering statements into facts,
maybe you are a blacksmith.

if one of those hammered facts hits me in the head I will send you the bill.

you have forge insurance, right?


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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26607513 - 04/17/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

First off we still have no evidence of EVOLUTION. So maybe rephrase with the right word, ADAPTATION. We have NEVER seen evidence of an evolutionary leap on development in one generation. It's always a minor adaptation. Nothing we know of goes through an EVOLUTION.


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Lets Get Stoned


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: MycoBrainz]
    #26607806 - 04/17/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I was also going to leap upon the term evolution being used that way, because it is so sensational - but I enjoyed the 2001 movie "evolution" on Netflix yesterday. quite a funny thing.

you are right,

the operative term is mutation, not evolution. and yes human pollution and ill managed treatments of animals and each other includes the haphazard introduction of mutagenic compounds.

we have to manage and risk less haphazardly to achieve our goals.

lots of act to clean up. (but the use of language is also haphazard...)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26607880 - 04/17/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ribbit...Ribbit





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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26607900 - 04/17/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ribbit



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26608614 - 04/17/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

it's not easy being green


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: MycoBrainz]
    #26617249 - 04/21/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MycoBrainz said:
First off we still have no evidence of EVOLUTION. So maybe rephrase with the right word, ADAPTATION. We have NEVER seen evidence of an evolutionary leap on development in one generation. It's always a minor adaptation. Nothing we know of goes through an EVOLUTION.




Quote:

redgreenvines said:
..." I was also going to leap upon the term evolution being used that way, because it is so sensational - but I enjoyed the 2001 movie "evolution" on Netflix yesterday. quite a funny thing.
you are right, the operative term is mutation, not evolution.





Absolutely brilliant ...by both of you --  good to know all these scientists are wrong !

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

"COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin"  March 17, 2020  Scripps Research Institute

"An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered."

"The novel SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus that emerged in the city of Wuhan, China, last year and has since caused a large scale COVID-19 epidemic and spread to more than 70 other countries is the product of natural evolution, according to findings published today in the journal Nature Medicine."...

"Evidence for natural evolution
The scientists found that the RBD portion of the SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins had evolved to effectively target a molecular feature on the outside of human cells called ACE2, a receptor involved in regulating blood pressure. " ....

"This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2's backbone -- its overall molecular structure. "...

"Josie Golding, PhD, epidemics lead at UK-based Wellcome Trust, said the findings by Andersen and his colleagues are "crucially important to bring an evidence-based view to the rumors that have been circulating about the origins of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) causing COVID-19."
"They conclude that the virus is the product of natural evolution," Goulding adds, "ending any speculation about deliberate genetic engineering."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Covid-19 & what we don't want to know... [Re: laughingdog]
    #26617439 - 04/21/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

ok, in this case they are using the words "natural evolution" to distinguish the virus from something created in a lab.

people can use the term loosely, obviously so can some scientists, however, I would recommend a more precise use of the verb to mutate instead of to evolve, as mutation pertains to the actual case of viruses.
These complex bundles of organic chemicals are not actually living things, though they are comprised of some of the same chemicals as living creatures.

I would not say that Niagara Falls is evolving even though aspects of it change. Nor would I say that the CO2 problem is an evolutionary process of the atmosphere.

However, throwing the term into a headline is a great attention getter. Bear in mind that not all scientists are as careful with their choice of words.


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