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Offlinemorrowasted
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Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions * 5
    #26604362 - 04/15/20 10:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'll keep this succinct and readable as possible.

I am not a vegan or vegetarian. I have been in the past. I've always gone back to eating meat simply because it is easier to eat a diverse amount of food when you do, and diversity is less boring.

Quote:



Argument 1:  "Veganism is unhealthy because vegans tend to be deficient in certain essential vitamins and minerals like B12 and iron, which makes them more susceptible to getting anemia and dementia."




Why it's wrong: Stating that X is a risk factor for developing Y does not mean that X is unhealthy. For example, being black in America is a risk factor for having diabetes. However, being black is not unhealthy. Awareness of risk factors enables you to address them. Just like a black person can eat a diet rich in fibrous vegetables, fruits, and legumes to prevent diabetes, vegans can eat a diet rich in foods with supplemental B12, or can simply take B12 supplements.
Quote:



Argument 2: "[I/one or more of my friends] went vegan and got sick/weak/cloudy-headed."




Why it's wrong: This is blame shifting. For every anecdote you can provide about a vegan who supposedly got sick "because of veganism", I can provide one of a person whose health is more robust than yours, one of a person who is stronger and more athletic than you are even though you eat meat, and one of someone who is more intellectually accomplished than you are. Being vegan doesn't make you sick, weak, or dumb. Being deficient in nutrients, failing to exercise, and/or failing to learn makes you sick, weak, or dumb. There are people who adhere to any kind of diet you can image who are nutrient deficient, fail to exercise, and fail to learn.
Quote:



Argument 3: "Humans evolved to be omnivores, therefore it is the more healthy diet."




Why it's wrong: The implication of this argument is behaving in a way that does not reflect the context in which your physiology develops will always have suboptimal results. This is patently false- driving a car does not reflect the context in which your physiology developed. It is nevertheless a far more efficient use of the cellular machinery you possess, if your goal is to travel quickly.

The reason the argument fails is actually very simple: the way that you measure the which diet is the "most healthy" is by correlating data about what people eat with their health outcomes. As it turns out, over half a century of such data reveals a clear picture: eating meat increases your risk of developing problems that will reduce your lifespan, and eating plants decreases those risks. Long term data on veganism is still emerging, but vegetarians live longer on average than those who eat meat. Thus, even if your body did not evolve in a context of surviving on plants, surviving on plants is a more efficient use of your cellular machinery, if your goal is to live a longer life.



Before you find yourself attacking veganism or defending your own diet against it, ask yourself: "Why? Is this person hurting me?" If the answer is no, then saying something may be counterproductive, because- shocking as it may seem- your compulsion to spread misinformation and/or fallacious arguments may be unintentionally hurting other people. If your diet works for you, that's great. There's no need to try and discourage people from going vegan. Medical personnel are aware of the risk factors associated with a vegan diet and will assess for them during the yearly physical and treat them accordingly, in the same way that medical personnel are aware of the risk factors associated with eating meat will assess for them and treat them accordingly.


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Offlinedk-1

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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #26604423 - 04/15/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

"The reason the argument fails is actually very simple: the way that you measure the which diet is the "most healthy" is by correlating data about what people eat with their health outcomes. As it turns out, over half a century of such data reveals a clear picture: eating meat increases your risk of developing problems that will reduce your lifespan, and eating plants decreases those risks. Long term data on veganism is still emerging, but vegetarians live longer on average than those who eat meat. Thus, even if your body did not evolve in a context of surviving on plants, surviving on plants is a more efficient use of your cellular machinery, if your goal is to live a longer life."

This isn't necessarily true. There is a lot of evidence and good arguments for eating a purely animal-product based diet and those who do seem to be very healthy. Like in a vegetable based diet, the cause of diet-based disease for those who eat meat is usually over-consumption of processed food.

In saying that, there are quite a few harmful compounds (insoluble fibers, phytic acid etc) in plants that make them less beneficial (more inflammatory) for humans to eat long-term than a diet containing both meat and animal products. Vegans/vegatarians are healthier than average because someone who decides to go on a specific diet at least has some interest in what they're putting into their body compared to someone on the SAD (standard American diet). I'm not saying that you can't be healthy on a vegan diet, only that it is much more impractical for the average person.

I think for the average person who isn't overly invested in their diet, they're likely going to be worse off on a vegan diet than if they were to eat meat.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: dk-1]
    #26604470 - 04/15/20 11:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In my opinion, the main problem with the whole 'which diet is the most healthy' debate is the likely presence of confounders that are very difficult to control for and in practice never truly are controlled for in extant research, inherently casting a shadow of doubt on the outcomes of these studies or at least making them vulnerable to criticism that virtually cannot be mitigated.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604490 - 04/16/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The fact that people who decide to be vegans also tend to be healthy in other ways does reduce the STRENGTH of the epidemiological data but it certainly doesnt do anything like allow you to reverse the conclusions you draw, which us what youd have to do to conclude that veganism is unhealthy from data


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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604540 - 04/16/20 12:44 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think both diets can be healthy or unhealthy to a certain extent depending on how you go about it. Although i do believe plant based is better for you done right.
While I was still eating meat I thought was eating a good well balanced diet and would regularly argue with one of vegan friends about how important eating a balanced diet including meat is.

But since going plant based I have actually felt great, more energy, less fatigue and generally better all round.
I have been putting more thought and effort in to my food now to make sure it’s got the right nutrients and tases good but that’s only a good thing, I can’t see any reason to go back to eating meat.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: Unknown error]
    #26604554 - 04/16/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I am personally conscientious about the nutrients I ingest even though I eat meat. Unsurprisingly, people who reflect on their health behaviors tend to be healthier.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: morrowasted]
    #26604698 - 04/16/20 02:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
The fact that people who decide to be vegans also tend to be healthy in other ways does reduce the STRENGTH of the epidemiological data but it certainly doesnt do anything like allow you to reverse the conclusions you draw, which us what youd have to do to conclude that veganism is unhealthy from data



That's true. However, if conclusions are not firm as a result of methodological problems, the issue of reversing them also becomes sort of moot.

Another problem is that 'healthy' is a rather complex construct and if you look at the gazillions of studies done about diet vs. health, the problem is that you need to distinguish between many dimensions and indicators of both diet and health, with the resulting outcomes being much more nuanced than 'healthy or not'. You end up with a rather vague 'it depends on the specifics of the diet and which outcomes are focused on'.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks] * 1
    #26604754 - 04/16/20 03:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I just feel better when I eat nothing but meat and animal products.

Never bloated.

The tiny whisp of gas I may have doesn't smell bad. Compared to lots of raunch farting on the grains and beans and veggies.

My poops are solid and small, barely requiring tp and not stinky. Compared to when I ate mostly veggies and little meat.

I eat until I'm satisfied, not full.. that means a lot less food in your stomach so working or exercising after a satisfying meal is not in the least uncomfortable.

Plant based foods take a lot more volume and you're passing a lot of totally unnecessary nonfood through your guts.

Eating only meat means you never eat sugar of any form and it drastically reduces your chances of type 2 diabetes.

Plants have adapted to predators using chemicals and toxins as they are largely inanimate in the sense of being able to move and defend themselves.

Animals as food are mobile and have other means of surviving so they never developed these largely chemical defenses to ward off predators and keep from being eaten.

Humans also have the highest functioning minds of the entire animal kingdom and our brains need high octane fuel like fat to fire on all cylinders.

Meat is also a complete protein by itself which is a huge testament to the benefits of eating only meat. The explosion of human's cognitive abilities is largely due to the wider availability of higher quality animal based foods due to advances in the technology that made hunting easier or more successful.

Bet.

But mostly I can feel in the way my body works and functions now that the people that think they know are possibly contributing to shit like diabetes and alzheimers.

Most of the inflammatory issues people have are plant based food related.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: susurrador]
    #26604761 - 04/16/20 03:44 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

When you are getting everything you need from your food, it doesn't get boring.

If the food is boring perhaps it is incomplete not just simply lacking excitment.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: susurrador]
    #26604795 - 04/16/20 04:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

>My poops are solid and small, barely requiring tp
If anything, that's a sign of not enough dietary fiber.
Of course; if it works for you, that's fine. Just pointing out that solid poops are not necessarily a good thing. Soft is better, of course not runny/too soft. Just very malleable and moist. Should pass easily without being fluid, and certainly not requiring effort to pass.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604829 - 04/16/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not true.

You won't know what I mean until you try it.

I don't mean compacted or hard just solid and dense. Not smeary.

Takes no effort, comes right out.

Seriously pooping is so much more pleasant on just meat and fat.


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InvisibleDistorted Vision
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: susurrador]
    #26604843 - 04/16/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I completely disagree 200%. I've been a vegetarian most my life and my shits are so much less messy and time consuming when I don't eat meat. When I eat mostly meat, I have to keep wiping.

Right now I am hardly eating meat and on the first wipe there's hardly anything there.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: Distorted Vision]
    #26604846 - 04/16/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm saying eating all meat and animal products. Not just mostly.

Zero plant matter.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604852 - 04/16/20 05:01 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

your gut bacteria is based on what you consume. So if you consume mostly veggies your system has hard time with meat. And vice versa if you consume mostly/only meat your system has no problem with it but when fed veggies it has to adjust the bacteria levels to efficiently consume them.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26604855 - 04/16/20 05:03 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For sure. The gut flora do take a few weeks to reset. That's why some people get bad shits for a week or so when they start eating only meat.

I never even got that, but I have still been drinking beer so my gut bugs probably aren't even in pure meat ketosis mode.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: susurrador]
    #26604899 - 04/16/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
You won't know what I mean until you try it.




No, thanks. I gave up meat years ago and I love vegetables, legumes, beans, rice, etc. Plus, I poop fine :wink:

Again, if this works for you, that's fine. I'm not here to try and convince you or anyone of changing their diet, nor do I expect others to try and do the same for me.
I was just pointing out that the description of 'solid and small' poops is consistent with mild to severe constipation (type 1-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_stool_scale) and thus not a good indicator of healthy poop.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604913 - 04/16/20 05:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:toast:


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: koraks]
    #26604928 - 04/16/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

susurrador said:
You won't know what I mean until you try it.




No, thanks. I gave up meat years ago and I love vegetables, legumes, beans, rice, etc. Plus, I poop fine :wink:

Again, if this works for you, that's fine. I'm not here to try and convince you or anyone of changing their diet, nor do I expect others to try and do the same for me.
I was just pointing out that the description of 'solid and small' poops is consistent with mild to severe constipation (type 1-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_stool_scale) and thus not a good indicator of healthy poop.




When you look at animals poop that dont eat meat it is quite solid usually.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 1
    #26604933 - 04/16/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Like cow plop or horse plop?

Lol

Deer and antelope have hard little scat around here. Mostly juniper berries it seems.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Debunking the three most common anti-vegan opinions [Re: susurrador]
    #26604948 - 04/16/20 06:16 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

most wild animals dont have diarrea type shit. Most farm animals do. Something to do with diet and/or supplements like antibiots?


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