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OfflineKryptos
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dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies * 2
    #26603523 - 04/15/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/493044-trump-threatens-to-adjourn-both-chambers-of-congress

Quote:



President Trump on Wednesday threatened to use his executive power to force both chambers of Congress to adjourn if the Senate did not confirm his nominees for vacancies across the administration.

The president, during a coronavirus briefing in the Rose Garden, offered a lengthy diatribe against what he described as congressional obstruction and argued confirming his nominees was more urgent than ever amid the pandemic.

"The Senate should either fulfill its duty and vote on my nominees or it should formally adjourn so I can make recess appointments," Trump said. "We have a tremendous number of people that have to come into government. And now more so than ever before because of the virus and the problem."

Lawmakers in both chambers are not expected to return to the Capitol until May 4 but both the House and Senate have been conducting pro forma sessions in the meantime. That means the Senate is technically in session and Trump may not make recess appointments.

"The current practice of leaving town while conducting phony pro forma sessions is a dereliction of duty that the American people can not afford during this crisis," he said. "It is a scam, what they do. It’s a scam. And everybody knows it and it’s been that way for a long time."

Article II, Section 3 of the Constitution grants Trump the power to "on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper."

That means that in order for the president to step in and dismiss both, the GOP-controlled Senate would have to adjourn while the Democrat-held House objected. Senate Democrats also have procedural tools to prevent the Senate from adjourning.

The National Constitution Center noted that "no President has ever exercised" the authority.

"Perhaps it’s never been done before, nobody’s even sure if it has," Trump said. "But we’re going to do it. We need these people here. We need people for this crisis, and we don’t want to play any more political games."

The Trump administration has long been plagued by vacancies across the government. Trump has declined to nominate full-time appointees to key positions, instead relying officials in acting capacities.

One hundred and fifty of 749 "key positions" tracked by The Washington Post and Partnership for Public Service do not have nominees, while another 15 are awaiting nomination.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), a key agency in guarding against the coronavirus and other national security threats, has not had a full-time secretary in over a year. A number of other top positions in the department remain unfilled.

Trump cited the director of national intelligence, two members of the Federal Reserve Board, the undersecretary of agriculture responsible for administering food security programs and the head of the U.S. Agency for Global Media as nominees he has put forward who are awaiting confirmation amid the pandemic.

Rep. John Ratcliffe (R-Texas) nominated to be the director of national intelligence has not yet received a hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee. Judy Shelton, one of Trump's Federal Reserve Board nominees, has not yet received a vote before the Senate Banking Committee, after hitting early skepticism from GOP members of the panel.

Trump's comments are likely to pour new fuel into the fight over nominations, which have emerged as a lightning rod in recent years. Senate Republicans went "nuclear" in 2019 to change the Senate's rules and cut down on the amount of time it takes to confirm most executive nominees and district judges. But Democrats are still able to force Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to eat up days of floor time for a single nomination under the chamber's rules.

Trump touted the number of judicial nominations, a top priority for McConnell, confirmed by the Senate: 193. But he argued that nominees for the executive branch were stuck in limbo for up to years because Democrats were "holding this up."

"It's a very unfair system," Trump said. "There's no time for anybody else and many of these people have been waiting for two and a half years. ...We can't get them approved by the Democrats. ...It's just a concerted effort to make life difficult."

It's unclear what prompted Trump to levy his attack on the congressional confirmation process on Tuesday, but it marked the latest instance of the president using his coronavirus briefings to take up political fights as his White House comes under criticism for its handling of the pandemic.

Coronavirus has infected roughly 635,000 people in the U.S. and killed roughly 28,000.

He has previously chastised presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden during briefings, described Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) as a "lightweight" and warned lawmakers against conducting "partisan investigations" after the House convened a special committee to exam the federal response to the pandemic.

Trump has also used the briefings to push other proposals in line with his broader agenda. He rolled out increased narco-terrorism patrols earlier this month and announced on Tuesday that his administration would put a hold on funding for the World Health Organization (WHO), accusing it of being too trusting of China.




Hmm.

I wonder what would have happened if Obama did this? Hell, I don;t think FDR would've been able to pull this off literally during WWII. Closest analogue I can think of is Wilson's Sedition acts that made it illegal to criticize the president during WWI...and the Spanish Flu.


Edited by Kryptos (04/15/20 05:26 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26603719 - 04/15/20 06:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So Congress is blocking his appointments for the director of national intelligence, two members of the Federal Reserve Board, the undersecretary of agriculture responsible for administering food security programs and the head of the U.S. Agency for Global Media?

Shouldn't those positions be filled?  :shrug:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26603730 - 04/15/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think they're filled in an "acting" capacity, if at all. Then again, something like one third to one half of the senior executive positions are currently unfilled.

The part that I find most worrying is that these positions can be filled on a party line vote in the Senate since they changed the rules. Which means the people he's trying to fill them with are so unqualified even Moscow Mitch, Putin's Bitch won't touch that shit.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26603788 - 04/15/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
...the people he's trying to fill them with are so unqualified even Moscow Mitch, Putin's Bitch won't touch that shit.



Maybe they were unqualified, or maybe they just weren't establishment enough.  Your article didn't explain why Trump's picks were unqualified.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26603836 - 04/15/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I can't find a single article in which Moscow Mitch defends his choice to not vote on these guys, whereas he has no problem voting for blatantly unqualified 30 year old judges that have yet to preside over a single trial to the federal circuit.

The Turtle is at least decently smart, smart enough to play it close to his chest.

For one, Ratcliffe has a history of...supporting going to war against Iran, illegal travel bans, and he leads the conspiracy that the FBI contains a secret society that is trying to destroy Trump. He'd be the pick for DNI.

Next, let's see here...Shelton, the Fed pick, argued that interest rates were way too low under Obama, then way too high under diaper don. Most recently, her position is that we should have 0% interest rate and 0% inflation, and that we should return to the gold standard. She also believes that he Fed should not be independent of the executive branch and should follow the wishes of the president (but not when Obama was president). She similarly flopped on free trade, and thinks that the world needs to have a global conference on returning to the gold standard at Mar-a-Lago. Not sure why she was so specific on where the conference should be held (HAHA JK I know exactly why).


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604124 - 04/15/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Trump mentioned this guy, Michael Pack by name, his  nomination to  be CEO of the U.S. Agency for Global Media.
"Michael Pack, a conservative filmmaker with ties to Steve Bannon, has seen at least $1.6 million in donations from his nonprofit sent into the coffers of his independent production company, according to disclosure forms..."
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/20/trump-nominee-michael-pack-used-nonprofit-donations-to-fund-media-firm.html

Then there's this:
"...At least 11 Republican senators in recent months have disclosed they’re blocking votes on nominees for agencies including the Energy, Agriculture, State, Homeland Security and Justice departments. The vast majority of those delays remain in place while the lawmakers demand concessions on issues such as ethanol regulations, marijuana, disaster funding and nuclear waste..."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/republicans-trump-nominees-397714

Trump stated on March 14, 2018 in in a tweet:
Says Democratic obstruction is the reason why "many important positions in government are unfilled." 1/2 true or 1/2 false?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/mar/16/donald-trump/why-trump-appointments-have-lagged-behind-other-pr/

:rolleyes: . . . :peace:


--------------------

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Onlinekoods
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26604151 - 04/15/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So Congress is blocking his appointments for the director of national intelligence, two members of the Federal Reserve Board, the undersecretary of agriculture responsible for administering food security programs and the head of the U.S. Agency for Global Media?

Shouldn't those positions be filled?  :shrug:




Yes. And congress has every right to not approve them. That’s their job.

The DNI guy is going for a second try. He was voted down last time.

trump has to appoint people who can get confirmed. That’s the balance.

Why have you turned into such a trump syncophant?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26604160 - 04/15/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Trump acts like he’s the first president who had to deal with a senate that wasn’t a rubber stamp. He such a fucking whiner.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26604182 - 04/15/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

He was complaining about how he can’t get more judges. Recess appointments end at the end of the congressional session. Any judges that are appointed during a recess would have a term that ends in January.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604409 - 04/15/20 11:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Ratcliffe … leads the conspiracy that the FBI contains a secret society that is trying to destroy Trump. He'd be the pick for DNI.



I support Trump's pick.  The FBI did a massive 3 year investigation to find evidence of Trump Russia collusion and found nothing.  Then they had to drop the case of Russian election interference.  Trump should get rid of those responsible.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Shelton, the Fed pick, argued that interest rates were way too low under Obama, then way too high under diaper don. Most recently, her position is that we should have 0% interest rate and 0% inflation, and that we should return to the gold standard. She also believes that he Fed should not be independent of the executive branch and should follow the wishes of the president (but not when Obama was president). She similarly flopped on free trade, and thinks that the world needs to have a global conference on returning to the gold standard at Mar-a-Lago. Not sure why she was so specific on where the conference should be held (HAHA JK I know exactly why).



I agree with you, that sounds like a bad pick to me.  :thumbdown:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605309 - 04/16/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If an investigation results in no conviction, does that mean the investigation should never have taken place?

Or, to put it another way, should investigations only be carried out when the result is known?

Or, to put it yet another way, should investigations necessarily find fault in every case?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26605360 - 04/16/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not necessarily.  But it'd be very interesting to see the grand jury testimony for Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26605368 - 04/16/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Also the premise is faulty. There were plenty of convictions.

Who should get fired for not getting a conviction of Joe and Hunter B? The entire fucking GOP house should go to jail for not putting Hillary behind bars.

That fucking Q needs to be drawn and quartered for all the convictions he promised that never materialized.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26605374 - 04/16/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Also the premise is faulty. There were plenty of convictions.



Not for collusion.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605401 - 04/16/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So what? That wasn’t their mandate.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26605415 - 04/16/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you don't like the word 'collusion', they didn't find this either:

"any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605529 - 04/16/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you keen to punish the FBI for coming to a conclusion you agree with?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26605543 - 04/16/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think anyone should should be punished for that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605554 - 04/16/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't think anyone should should be punished for that.




Quote:

The FBI did a massive 3 year investigation to find evidence of Trump Russia collusion and found nothing.  Then they had to drop the case of Russian election interference.  Trump should get rid of those responsible.




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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods] * 1
    #26605587 - 04/16/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For opening the investigation in the first place, not for finding nothing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605595 - 04/16/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The investigation resulted in mutilple convictions and indictments.

You’re ridiculous


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NotSheekle said
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26605609 - 04/16/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not for "any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26605626 - 04/16/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So, you're suggesting that law enforcement should be fired if they investigate something and don't find evidence of it?  That sounds like a recipe for disaster and corruption.  We already have enough law enforcement officers who manufacture evidence.  Why would you want to give them a financial incentive to do it?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605645 - 04/16/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

No, that's not what I'm suggesting.  Don't let koods confuse you.

I'm suggesting we not open witch hunts.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26605651 - 04/16/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

How does one know it's a witch hunt until one investigates?  What you're saying is the equivalent of punishing law enforcement for being wrong.  If someone starts an investigation, he/she would be placing his/her job on the line.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605653 - 04/16/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

He likes investigations with predetermined results.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26605730 - 04/16/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you guys think it's ok to conduct investigations into people just because you don't like them, then we'll have to disagree.  If you guys think there was enough evidence to start an investigation, people intimately familiar with the case say the Russia probe was started 'without any basis'.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26605764 - 04/16/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You said it, dude - “the Russia probe”
As in, NOT “the Trump probe”

The primary reason for it was to prove that Russia interfered in the election. This was proven.

If you wanna toss out the fact that multiple people associated with the Trump 2016 campaign were indicted in this process, that’s fine. It’s still crazy to call an investigation that resulted in convictions “a witch hunt”.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26605769 - 04/16/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Investigations happen based on hunches all the time in this country.  Sometimes, they come up empty.  Sometimes, as in the Russia probe, they yield results.  I don't understand why you'd have a problem with investigation.  Is it about the money?  Don't you think it's worth spending some money to determine whether our commander-in-chief is up to shenanigans?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26605773 - 04/16/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure AG Barr can be considered a source of unbiased opinion.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26605783 - 04/16/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
The primary reason for it was to prove that Russia interfered in the election. This was proven.



You forgot this thread already?  Better reread it.  The case for election interference was dropped and never proven.  The OP explains why it didn't happen.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605792 - 04/16/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Investigations happen based on hunches all the time in this country.  Sometimes, they come up empty.  Sometimes, as in the Russia probe, they yield results.  I don't understand why you'd have a problem with investigation.  Is it about the money?  Don't you think it's worth spending some money to determine whether our commander-in-chief is up to shenanigans?




You know the law better than me.  If people can be investigated simply due to hunches, then I've learned something new.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: relic]
    #26605797 - 04/16/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

relic said:
I'm not sure AG Barr can be considered a source of unbiased opinion.



I'm sure he's biased.  But I haven't seen any evidence other than a hunch, which Enlil now tells me is enough.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605805 - 04/16/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know what makes you think the case was dropped.  The federal criminal case against 12 Russian intelligence officers is very much still open.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605807 - 04/16/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Investigations happen based on hunches all the time in this country.  Sometimes, they come up empty.  Sometimes, as in the Russia probe, they yield results.  I don't understand why you'd have a problem with investigation.  Is it about the money?  Don't you think it's worth spending some money to determine whether our commander-in-chief is up to shenanigans?




You know the law better than me.  If people can be investigated simply due to hunches, then I've learned something new.



Yeah, there's no constitutional right not to be investigated.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605815 - 04/16/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know what makes you think the case was dropped.  The federal criminal case against 12 Russian intelligence officers is very much still open.



They all worked for Concord, the case against which was dropped.  It's over.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605821 - 04/16/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That's absolutely false.  Federal case number 1:18-CR-00215 in the district of Columbia is 100% still open and pending against 12 Russian intelligence officers who were indicted.  It's a matter of public record.  You can open a PACER account today and view it for free. (They'll tell you there's a per page charge, but if you view less than a certain amount each quarter, it's waived.)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605830 - 04/16/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Here is a .pdf of the indictment in that case:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605836 - 04/16/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I get it.  You're doing the lawyer thing and arguing a retarded technicality.

Everyone who was indicted worked for Concord, and the case against Concord was dropped.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26605843 - 04/16/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Again, you haven't supported that with any evidence.  Nothing in that indictment says anything about Concord.  They were indicted as individuals for crimes related to election interference.  If those people set foot in this country, they will likely be arrested and face trial for those crimes.  There was no dismissal of that case or any defendant therein.

You're just believing fake news again.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26605859 - 04/16/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I get it.  Technically the cases for the Concord employees and the Internet Research Agency (IRA) are still open.

But if they can't get the parent company, how do you think they can get anyone working for Concord?  If any one of those others are guilty, then Concord should have been found guilty.

I'm looking at the big picture.  You're arguing a legal technicality.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26605864 - 04/16/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not at all. I've seen no evidence that these people even worked for Concord. As far as I know, you just made that up. This is not a technicality. There is a felony case against Russian agents. Pretending there isn't one doesn't change that.

Also, I don't know why you think an employer is criminally liable for crimes committed by employees.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26605919 - 04/16/20 01:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Here is a .pdf of the indictment in that case:



Wrong indictment.  That was for the DNC server hack.

Here is the one for election interference

Quote:

Defendant INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY LLC (“ORGANIZATION”) is a Russian organization engaged in operations to interfere with elections and political  processes.  Defendants MIKHAIL IVANOVICH BYSTROV, MIKHAIL LEONIDOVICH BURCHIK, ALEKSANDRA YURYEVNA KRYLOVA, ANNA VLADISLAVOVNA BOGACHEVA, SERGEY PAVLOVICH POLOZOV, MARIA ANATOLYEVNA BOVDA, ROBERT SERGEYEVICH BOVDA, DZHEYKHUN NASIMI OGLY ASLANOV, VADIM VLADIMIROVICH PODKOPAEV, GLEB IGOREVICH  VASILCHENKO, IRINA VIKTOROVNA KAVERZINA, and VLADIMIR VENKOV worked in various capacities to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations  targeting  the  United  States.

Defendant ORGANIZATION received funding for its operations from Defendant YEVGENIY VIKTOROVICH PRIGOZHIN and companies he controlled, including Defendants CONCORD MANAGEMENT AND CONSULTING LLC and CONCORD CATERING (collectively “CONCORD”).




Quote:

Enlil said:
I've seen no evidence that these people even worked for Concord. As far as I know, you just made that up.



See underlined portions of the indictment above.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know why you think an employer is criminally liable for crimes committed by employees.



Because the indictment is against the ORGANIZATION for election interference.  The employees are just people who worked "to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations".

I hope you're up to speed now.  :hatsoff:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26605958 - 04/16/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If you guys think it's ok to conduct investigations into people* just because you don't like them, then we'll have to disagree.  If you guys think there was enough evidence to start an investigation, people intimately familiar with the case say the Russia probe was started 'without any basis'.




*Unless their last name is biden


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26606039 - 04/16/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Even if their last name is Biden.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606251 - 04/16/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you go on a witch hunt, catch actual witches and prove they were practicing black magic in court, then you could start calling the Russia probe a “witch hunt”. That, or if you choose to lie to yourself.

Imagine Hunter Biden meets with a North Korean lawyer with known connections to the govt. So they meet at a hotel owned by Biden, and later it turns out they were discussing the US sanctions on North Korea.
Go ahead, tell me you wouldn’t think that needs to be investigated....

Btw, that’s just a tiny part of the “hunches”


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26606324 - 04/16/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It's the wrong indictment because you don't want to talk about it. The indictment I posted specifically states it's related to election interference and that case is still pending.  What part of 12 Russian agents facing criminal prosecution for crimes related to election interference is unclear to you?  Those aren't even the same people as the other indictment.  How do you know these people worked for Concord at all?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114]
    #26606385 - 04/16/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
If you go on a witch hunt, catch actual witches and prove they were practicing black magic in court, then you could start calling the Russia probe a “witch hunt”. That, or if you choose to lie to yourself.



I don't think you don't understand what 'witch hunt' means.  It's not looking for actual witches. 

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Imagine Hunter Biden meets with a North Korean lawyer with known connections to the govt. So they meet at a hotel owned by Biden, and later it turns out they were discussing the US sanctions on North Korea.
Go ahead, tell me you wouldn’t think that needs to be investigated....



Politicians often ask foreigners for dirt on opponents.  Hillary did this with the Steele Dossier.

Why should we be more suspicious when Trump does it?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606393 - 04/16/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Politicians often ask foreigners for dirt on opponents.  Hillary did this with the Steele Dossier.




We're talking about the Steele Dossier, that was originally started at the request and expense of the Washington Free Beacon, an openly partisan conservative website?

:huxleyfacepalm:


Edited by Kryptos (04/16/20 06:30 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606414 - 04/16/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Quote:

Enlil said:
I've seen no evidence that these people even worked for Concord. As far as I know, you just made that up.



See underlined portions of the indictment above.




Those aren't the same people at all.  Do you have any evidence that any of the people in the indictment I posted ever worked for Concord?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606421 - 04/16/20 06:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It's the wrong indictment because you don't want to talk about it. The indictment I posted specifically states it's related to election interference and that case is still pending.  What part of 12 Russian agents facing criminal prosecution for crimes related to election interference is unclear to you?



Wrong, we can talk about it.  As I've pointed out before, there is more evidence that Seth Rich leaked the emails to Wikileaks than there is Russia did.  Granted that doesn't prove it was Seth Rich, but it's more evidence than what Mueller's been able to come up with.

Since we know there was no finding of collusion in the Mueller report, and since we know the first indictment above was bullshit, and since we know Mueller lied about WMDs, why are you trusting this indictment?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26606423 - 04/16/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Politicians often ask foreigners for dirt on opponents.  Hillary did this with the Steele Dossier.



We're talking about the Steele Dossier, that was originally started at the request and expense of the Washington Free Beacon, an openly partisan conservative website?



Yes, that one.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26606434 - 04/16/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
why are you trusting this indictment?



I don't trust any indictment.  That's not the point.  You claimed that it was "over" and that the election interference cases were dropped.  That claim was untrue.  There is still an active criminal case against Russian agents for election interference.  Whether they would/will be convicted is another issue, and of course innocent until proven guilty...but you aren't in a position to say what is and isn't accurate in that indictment or what evidence the government has in that case.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606453 - 04/16/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The first indictment fell apart when it was challenged in a US court.  The other indictment, whether phony or not, is still active as it hasn't been challenged it in court.  I think we both know the evidence is severely lacking.

You'll concede to the war, but you want the battle.  Fine.



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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26606483 - 04/16/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)
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Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The first indictment fell apart when it was challenged in a US court. 




Let me help you out here, because you seem to be woefully misinformed.  first, that indictment didn't "fall apart when it was challenged in a US court."  In fact, that indictment is still very much pending.  The only part of that indictment that was dismissed are the claims against the Concord Defendants, which are the two foreign companies.  The rest of the indictment is very much still active.

Further, the concord defendants were not dismissed by the court pursuant to some motion by those defendant.  Instead, the prosecutor realized that challenging jurisdiction would delay the trial even further.  This, coupled with the fact that the foreign corporation could not really be meaningfully punished made for a waste of money and time.

Now, I don't expect you to take my word for it.  Read the attached PDF of the motion, by the government, to dismiss the counts against those two defendants.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606699 - 04/16/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Instead, the prosecutor realized that challenging jurisdiction would delay the trial even further.  This, coupled with the fact that the foreign corporation could not really be meaningfully punished made for a waste of money and time.




Anecdotally, this is the reason that I am not currently sitting in a Russian jail for desertion.

EDIT: It would probably be more accurate to say "not tied up in years of court proceedings while I reconciled US and Russian bureaucracy". There's no way they'd actually send me to prison.


Edited by Kryptos (04/16/20 08:53 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606722 - 04/16/20 08:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The first indictment fell apart when it was challenged in a US court. 



Let me help you out here, because you seem to be woefully misinformed.  first, that indictment didn't "fall apart when it was challenged in a US court."  In fact, that indictment is still very much pending.  The only part of that indictment that was dismissed are the claims against the Concord Defendants, which are the two foreign companies.  The rest of the indictment is very much still active.



I get it.  But what you don't seem to get is that Concord funded and was responsible for the whole operation, and if Concord is off the hook, then logically everyone that worked under Concord is off the hook.  Maybe not legally, as you said, but certainly logically.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Further, the concord defendants were not dismissed by the court pursuant to some motion by those defendant.  Instead, the prosecutor realized that challenging jurisdiction would delay the trial even further.  This, coupled with the fact that the foreign corporation could not really be meaningfully punished made for a waste of money and time.



It took them how long and how much wasted money to finally come to this realization?  How much money do you think it would have been worth for the US to find Russia guilty?  A LOT more than this case would have cost, that's for damned sure.

While koods may be king of make believe, you're king of the gullible.  I won the bet that everyone chickened out from taking.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606733 - 04/16/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

They can't find Russia guilty, dude. Russia isn't a defendant and is a sovereign nation.

Today, there are still 25 Russian citizens facing criminal charges between those two cases.  That's a fact readily verified by public record.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606750 - 04/16/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe legally Russia wouldn't have lost, but the media would have pushed that story, and that's the whole reason there was even an indictment against the troll farm.

If you paid any attention to the facts, like I did, you'd know the troll farm would have won any case against them.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606764 - 04/16/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't said anything about any troll farm.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606772 - 04/16/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Concord owned all the troll farms.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606779 - 04/16/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The indictment isn't about troll farms.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606780 - 04/16/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Maybe legally Russia wouldn't have lost, but the media would have pushed that story, and that's the whole reason there was even an indictment against the troll farm.

If you paid any attention to the facts, like I did, you'd know the troll farm would have won any case against them.




To be fair, you explicitly ignored all of my arguments in that, among other, threads as nonsense. Sure, you're correct from the standpoint of 20th century propaganda tactics. You have completely and repeatedly discounted any description of modern propaganda tactics that I have provided. Which don't show up in the numbers, because they are focused on manipulating the algorithms that provide content to people, as opposed to manipulating the content or the people.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606786 - 04/16/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The indictment isn't about troll farms.



Yes it is.  That's the media nickname given to the Internet Research Agency.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606788 - 04/16/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Different indictment. The indictment i posted had nothing to do with that.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26606798 - 04/16/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
To be fair, you explicitly ignored all of my arguments in that, among other, threads as nonsense. Sure, you're correct from the standpoint of 20th century propaganda tactics. You have completely and repeatedly discounted any description of modern propaganda tactics that I have provided. Which don't show up in the numbers, because they are focused on manipulating the algorithms that provide content to people, as opposed to manipulating the content or the people.



Was your argument that the $46,000 spent by Russia on Facebook ads, 11% of which were political (or about $5,000) matched the $81 million spent by Trump/Hillary???


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606802 - 04/16/20 09:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Different indictment. The indictment i posted had nothing to do with that.



And the indictment you posted had nothing to do with Concord either.  The indictment you posted was about DNC hacking.

The one I posted was about the troll farm.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606805 - 04/16/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26606813 - 04/16/20 09:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You went back to Concord here, and so that's what I was talking to you about.

Concord owned the Internet Research Agency which was the troll farm.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26606995 - 04/16/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Bottom line is they dropped the case against Concord, who is the parent of the Internet Research Agency troll farm and employer of the other indicted workers.  You can either read and understand why they were forced to drop the case, or you can make believe that either the US suddenly no longer cared about the case, or that they had to protect state secrets (even though we know exactly how much these companies spent and on what).


Shall we now discuss the other indictment Enlil presented about the hacking of the DNC emails and what the evidence was that Russia or someone else gave the emails to Wikileaks?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26607175 - 04/17/20 03:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Different indictment. The indictment i posted had nothing to do with that.



And the indictment you posted had nothing to do with Concord either.  The indictment you posted was about DNC hacking.

The one I posted was about the troll farm.



You're alone in the belief that nothing at all was found. It's a fairytale land where Russia was exonerated which just did not happen. We've all gone through this conversation before


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Edited by Seriously_trippin (04/17/20 03:28 AM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26607384 - 04/17/20 07:37 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you.  There are two open criminal cases against Russian nationals for crimes related to election interference.  No one has been exonerated.  You say there is no evidence, but you simply do not know that.  All we know is that two grand jury indictments were handed down at this point.

I'm not going to argue the guilt of these Russian citizens/agents because I don't pretend to know the evidence.  I'm also not going to accept your claim that it was all bullshit.  They're presumed innocent under the law at this point, and that's all they have going for them.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26607663 - 04/17/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Concord owned all the troll farms.




Ops, admitted the troll farms are real there, bud. Weren’t they part of the hoax?
If you can figure out they’re real from your computer, why would you assume the FBI didn’t know this? Or should foreign troll farms focused on US elections be legal?

And you’re the one who called it a witch hunt. I just pointed out that, unless you’re lying to yourself, you think a witch hunt ends in the conviction of actual witches.
Witches don’t exist, but Russian election interference does. Idk, I thought it was a pretty simple analogy...


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114]
    #26607688 - 04/17/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Witches do exist, but there's nothing illegal about witchcraft.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26607968 - 04/17/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
To be fair, you explicitly ignored all of my arguments in that, among other, threads as nonsense. Sure, you're correct from the standpoint of 20th century propaganda tactics. You have completely and repeatedly discounted any description of modern propaganda tactics that I have provided. Which don't show up in the numbers, because they are focused on manipulating the algorithms that provide content to people, as opposed to manipulating the content or the people.



Was your argument that the $46,000 spent by Russia on Facebook ads, 11% of which were political (or about $5,000) matched the $81 million spent by Trump/Hillary???




Yes. This isn't a simple greater than less than.

You could hire a team of 100 dudes to work digging a ditch with their bare hands, and I can rent a bulldozer and do the exact same shit for a fraction of the cost.

Which is a very good analogy. Trump and Hillary are old school propagandists. They pushed content and tried to reach people. The Russian method simply fooled the existing algorithms into pushing the content they preferred to the people that they wanted to target. Which is why so little of the spending was directly political, because they weren't making ads, they were breaking algorithms.

As an experiment, since that post I went around and had some people at work Google a relatively nonsense string of words. The Google results I got were different that those my black coworker got, which were different from the old lady, which were different from my teenage sister. Similar, but different. The algorithms know our demographics, and they tailor results that we're most likely to find interesting.

There are ways to find out what algorithms think you are, and they're usually pretty accurate. Last time I dug up info on myself, it came up with: white male, 25-34, income around 125k, very educated.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26608081 - 04/17/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You're alone in the belief that nothing at all was found. It's a fairytale land where Russia was exonerated which just did not happen.



First of all, I was correct in my signature bet that the Mueller Report would find no evidence of Trump colluding with the Russian Government.  The Mueller Report specifically said that "Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities."

Then you, koods, and a few others insisted that the Mueller Report DID find evidence of Russian election interference, as evidenced by the indictments.  So I then made another signature bet that Concord would either win or the case would have to be dropped due to a lack of evidence.  I won that bet as well.

I find it odd that after being right on this (and so many other things like the Douma chemical attacks), you guys still make believe there's something there.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
We've all gone through this conversation before



Yes, the conversation where I ask for specific evidence, and you tell me it's buried somewhere in the Mueller Report, and if I would only read the whole thing I might be the first person in the wide world to find it.

I'll ask again, what specific evidence do you have?  I won't play make believe, as you and koods should know by now.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608089 - 04/17/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Your whole line of reasoning presumes that anyone here would have access to law enforcement files. No one is going to be given the privilege of seeing the evidence for two active criminal cases except those involved.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608094 - 04/17/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you.  There are two open criminal cases against Russian nationals for crimes related to election interference.  No one has been exonerated.  You say there is no evidence, but you simply do not know that.  All we know is that two grand jury indictments were handed down at this point.



Again, you're trying to play this from a legal angle rather than a real world angle.  "Sure, maybe there's absolutely no evidence, but since the case is legally still open, you can't claim a legal victory."  Well I don't give a shit about the legal angle, I care about the real world and what really happened.  And I know that may be difficult for a lawyer to understand.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm not going to argue the guilt of these Russian citizens/agents because I don't pretend to know the evidence.  I'm also not going to accept your claim that it was all bullshit.  They're presumed innocent under the law at this point, and that's all they have going for them.



But we do know the evidence (or lack thereof) and I've explained it many times.  I know you like to make believe there may be more than what we've seen, but there never is.  Nothing new came out of Mueller report that we didn't already know.  Everything gets leaked to the press, it's how our Government conducts propaganda.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your whole line of reasoning presumes that anyone here would have access to law enforcement files. No one is going to be given the privilege of seeing the evidence for two active criminal cases except those involved.



And those people decided they need to drop the case.  :shrug:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608096 - 04/17/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Says you. The case files available online say the cases are still very open.  Your need to cling to this false belief of yours is almost Freudian.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26608104 - 04/17/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Yes. This isn't a simple greater than less than.

You could hire a team of 100 dudes to work digging a ditch with their bare hands, and I can rent a bulldozer and do the exact same shit for a fraction of the cost.

Which is a very good analogy. Trump and Hillary are old school propagandists. They pushed content and tried to reach people. The Russian method simply fooled the existing algorithms into pushing the content they preferred to the people that they wanted to target. Which is why so little of the spending was directly political, because they weren't making ads, they were breaking algorithms.



Source, or make believe?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
As an experiment, since that post I went around and had some people at work Google a relatively nonsense string of words. The Google results I got were different that those my black coworker got, which were different from the old lady, which were different from my teenage sister. Similar, but different. The algorithms know our demographics, and they tailor results that we're most likely to find interesting.

There are ways to find out what algorithms think you are, and they're usually pretty accurate. Last time I dug up info on myself, it came up with: white male, 25-34, income around 125k, very educated.



Do you think Russia is the only one to know to know this?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608107 - 04/17/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Says you. The case files available online say the cases are still very open



For at least the 3rd time, I get it.  You want to win the legal argument, while I'm providing the real world argument.

"The case is still open, so who cares about the evidence?"


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608112 - 04/17/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You keep saying the case was dropped. That's simply false. It's not a technicality. It's a false statement. You're using a false statement as evidence to support your argument.

And because it's still open,  there's almost no chance of the evidence being made public.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114]
    #26608114 - 04/17/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Concord owned all the troll farms.



Ops, admitted the troll farms are real there, bud. Weren’t they part of the hoax?
If you can figure out they’re real from your computer, why would you assume the FBI didn’t know this? Or should foreign troll farms focused on US elections be legal?



I never said the troll farms don't exist.  What I said was their purpose is click bait advertising and I provided evidence of this.  I got no counter-evidence, just "Fal, why won't you make believe with me?"

Quote:

feldman114 said:
And you’re the one who called it a witch hunt. I just pointed out that, unless you’re lying to yourself, you think a witch hunt ends in the conviction of actual witches.



No, I linked to the definition of a witch hunt:facepalm:

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Witches don’t exist, but Russian election interference does.



Can you provide examples, or must your side continue with make believe?


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/17/20 01:34 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608140 - 04/17/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You keep saying the case was dropped. That's simply false. It's not a technicality. It's a false statement. You're using a false statement as evidence to support your argument.



No, I said they dropped the case against the parent company that everyone else worked for.  Do you think the workers went rogue and did things to interfere in the election on their own?  The indictment specifically said the workers "worked in various capacities to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations".  :facepalm:

Quote:

Enlil said:
And because it's still open,  there's almost no chance of the evidence being made public.



It's already been made public, and it's already been analyzed.

Do you really believe the Government suddenly decided it's a "waste of money and time" to find Russians guilty of election interference?  That this really wasn't important anymore?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608165 - 04/17/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Let's look at the big picture again.  Concord (the parent company) called bullshit on the election interference charges and voluntarily took this case to court.

The US then dropped the charges against Concord.

Why?

I have a tough time buying Enlil's excuse that this was "a waste of money and time" for the US Federal Government, after taking this all the way through to a few weeks before the trial actually started.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/17/20 01:39 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26608180 - 04/17/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Again with the misinformation.  Concord did not volunteer to take it to court.  Concord specifically challenged the jurisdiction of the court.  No hearings were ever held on the merits of the case.  There was never a weighing of the evidence, nor was the evidence ever made public.  The case wasn't dropped.

I don't know what you've read, but the notion that the case against Concord was dropped due to lack of evidence is 100% unsupported by the case files.  Even if you're correct that there was some hidden reason for those specific charges being dropped, that hidden reason certainly didn't result in the charges being dropped against EVERY HUMAN DEFENDANT.  In fact, there are still 25 Russian nationals who are facing felony criminal charges for crimes related to election interference. 

So, as to these Russian nationals, do you have any evidence that they are innocent?  Yeah, I know it's an unfair question.  Why would you?  The same can be said for anyone on this site who can't present evidence of their guilt.  All we have is an indictment.  Details of active investigations are not made public.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608197 - 04/17/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You're alone in the belief that nothing at all was found. It's a fairytale land where Russia was exonerated which just did not happen.



First of all, I was correct in my signature bet that the Mueller Report would find no evidence of Trump colluding with the Russian Government.  The Mueller Report specifically said that "Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities."

Then you, koods, and a few others insisted that the Mueller Report DID find evidence of Russian election interference, as evidenced by the indictments.  So I then made another signature bet that Concord would either win or the case would have to be dropped due to a lack of evidence.  I won that bet as well.

I find it odd that after being right on this (and so many other things like the Douma chemical attacks), you guys still make believe there's something there.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:

You were never right about this all this no evidence bullshit is anecdotal conspiracy crap. Like Enlil said you don't know jack shit about the evidence presented in those indictments or court cases. It's egotistical to say the least to keep saying you won your signature bet (collusion isn't a specific crime they were looking for the mandate was clear on that investigation and you keep trying to rewrite it) or that (after being right on this....) you were never right about this and just about everyone on the shroomery minus 1 or 2 think that your wrong and you constantly ask for proof but when you have links half the time it's another damn opinion piece online also with no proof. It just doesn't scream credibility. Also you know damn well saying that they dropped the case and why did they drop the case because of x and y? Is pure speculation, not fact speculation.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26608326 - 04/17/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Yes. This isn't a simple greater than less than.

You could hire a team of 100 dudes to work digging a ditch with their bare hands, and I can rent a bulldozer and do the exact same shit for a fraction of the cost.

Which is a very good analogy. Trump and Hillary are old school propagandists. They pushed content and tried to reach people. The Russian method simply fooled the existing algorithms into pushing the content they preferred to the people that they wanted to target. Which is why so little of the spending was directly political, because they weren't making ads, they were breaking algorithms.



Source, or make believe?




These guys are a bit behind the ball, but what else do you expect from Time?

Fact it, you either see it or you don't. Clearly, you don't. Being a somewhat intelligent dude that has time to look for sources, you are very good at convincing yourself you are correct.

Here's more.

Quote:

Once a blog post was created, the troll exclaimed, “Then the magic began!”

The computers were designed to forward the post to the agency’s countless fake accounts, opening and closing the post to create huge numbers of fake page views.




That's the thing. You think the bots were generating content? Hell no. The bots were generating clicks, upvotes, likes, whatever the platform calls it. This told the algorithm that the article was popular, and so it got pushed into people's news feeds.

Real people generated the content. Smart, well educated professionals wrote a few influential articles and blog posts, and the bots amplified the message by making it seem popular. And then it started showing up in people's twitter feeds with a bunch of likes and shit, and it took off. Then these articles would be discussed at length on forums like this. As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain that this Biden thread is a perfect example. Actually, this one is a better example.. OP read something that popped up on their news feed, due to an algorithm. And chances are, what they read wasn't written by a Russian, either. It was written by an American citizen who read some wacky blog post that got pushed by trolls to the top of *their* news feed, and then they rehashed it and found sources. Why? Because that person was likely a lot like me: white male, upper middle class, fairly educated, but unlike me, they did not have a high paying job. They were likely working some menial bullshit, waiting tables and driving an Uber around on weekends. Probably felt good pretty good when their crappy little blog with maybe a few dozen view per day suddenly had 10,000 new visitors who liked it and subscribed and shared it. For some reason it took a few days for the comments to start popping up, as the number of new visitors went down, but who's paying that close attention anyway?

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
As an experiment, since that post I went around and had some people at work Google a relatively nonsense string of words. The Google results I got were different that those my black coworker got, which were different from the old lady, which were different from my teenage sister. Similar, but different. The algorithms know our demographics, and they tailor results that we're most likely to find interesting.

There are ways to find out what algorithms think you are, and they're usually pretty accurate. Last time I dug up info on myself, it came up with: white male, 25-34, income around 125k, very educated.



Do you think Russia is the only one to know to know this?




Everyone with two brain cells to rub together knows it. This is Cambridge Analytica's game plan. It's also generated by webcrawlers that dig through public records and then put the results on those shady ass "reputation management" sites that sell repackaged public info for a low monthly subscription of only $5.99.

---

This is one of those situations where you either see it or you don't. I never really paid attention until I started selling reddit accounts. Never really understood why someone would be willing to pay $100+ for a reddit account that's a year old and only has a few thousand karma. That's literally a week of casual reddit and waiting a year for a pretty good payout. Then I looked at what happened with the accounts I sold. This happened. Or this. Same thing.

Here's a fun little exercise. You know how coronavirus is fake and the symptoms are just due to exposure to 5g as part of a massive worldwide plan by Bill Gates to implant microchips in people through vaccines? Well, don't take my word for it. I suggest you find a certain Dr. Andrew Kaufman, psychiatrist. Now, I wonder why a psychiatrist who lost their license to practice in the state of Ohio had a shitty little youtube channel for a while, which suddenly went from 100 to 10,000 subscribers overnight, after posting a short little video that racked up half a million views in a day. Guess his message really resonated with the people, huh?

---

This is the last time I will explain this to you, because it's exhausting and I have better shit to do with my time.


Edited by Kryptos (04/17/20 02:59 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608551 - 04/17/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again with the misinformation.  Concord did not volunteer to take it to court.



I'm relying on court documents"On April 11, 2018, Concord voluntarily entered an appearance in this case through its U.S.-based counsel."

Quote:

Enlil said:
Concord specifically challenged the jurisdiction of the court.



That was after they voluntarily entered an appearance and after Mueller tried to cheat by refusing to disclose discovery information to the defendants.

Quote:

Enlil said:
No hearings were ever held on the merits of the case.  There was never a weighing of the evidence, nor was the evidence ever made public.  The case wasn't dropped.



Well it was 'dismissed' if not dropped.  I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the difference.  Does it matter?

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know what you've read, but the notion that the case against Concord was dropped due to lack of evidence is 100% unsupported by the case files.



I can't believe you think Mueller would have admitted this was just a witch hunt after Concord challenged him in court.  Of course that's not going to happen.  :facepalm3:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Even if you're correct that there was some hidden reason for those specific charges being dropped, that hidden reason certainly didn't result in the charges being dropped against EVERY HUMAN DEFENDANT.  In fact, there are still 25 Russian nationals who are facing felony criminal charges for crimes related to election interference.



If you read the court document I posted above, it says "Although Concord Catering has not appeared in this case, the government is seeking its dismissal based on the likelihood that its approach to litigation would be the same as Concord if it did appear."  Maybe legally the case is still technically open for others that worked under Concord, but logically, if the case against the parent who is directing everything gets dismissed, it's almost certain the same would happen for everyone who worked for Concord.

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, as to these Russian nationals, do you have any evidence that they are innocent?  Yeah, I know it's an unfair question.  Why would you?  The same can be said for anyone on this site who can't present evidence of their guilt.  All we have is an indictment.  Details of active investigations are not made public.



Yes, we have the details, and I keep linking you to it.  That's how I knew I would win this bet and likely how you knew you shouldn't take my bet.

I realize that as a patriotic man you want to believe everything your government tells you about Russia, China, etc.  I'm proud of you for that, but our Government lies a lot.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608568 - 04/17/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The case wasn't dismissed either.  I don't know how many times I have to say it.  But, since you clearly finally read the motion to dismiss, let me quote it below:

Quote:

The United States will continue its efforts to apprehend the individual defendants and bring them before this Court to face the pending charges, but because substantial federal interests are no longer served by continuing with the proceedings against the Concord Defendants, the government moves, respectfully, to dismiss with prejudice Count One of the indictment as to them.




I don't know what your motivation is here to lie like this, but it's crystal clear to me, a trained, experienced legal professional, that the case is still very much pending as to the individual defendants.

Also, you can link all of the opinion pieces you want.  That isn't the same as having the evidence that the government has.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26608571 - 04/17/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You were never right about this all this no evidence bullshit is anecdotal conspiracy crap.



Do you finally have evidence to present?  Or is this yet another "C'mon Fal, let's just make believe together" post?

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Like Enlil said you don't know jack shit about the evidence presented in those indictments or court cases.



Please read my last post above, and feel free to apologize if you're man enough.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
It's egotistical to say the least to keep saying you won your signature bet (collusion isn't a specific crime they were looking for the mandate was clear on that investigation and you keep trying to rewrite it) or that (after being right on this....) you were never right about this and just about everyone on the shroomery minus 1 or 2 think that your wrong and you constantly ask for proof but when you have links half the time it's another damn opinion piece online also with no proof. It just doesn't scream credibility.



Again, if you have evidence not presented, please share.  I'm getting tired of asking.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608577 - 04/17/20 04:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So, you actually believe that you know everything the government does about the investigation?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608583 - 04/17/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The case wasn't dismissed either.  I don't know how many times I have to say it.  But, since you clearly finally read the motion to dismiss, let me quote it below:

Quote:

The United States will continue its efforts to apprehend the individual defendants and bring them before this Court to face the pending charges, but because substantial federal interests are no longer served by continuing with the proceedings against the Concord Defendants, the government moves, respectfully, to dismiss with prejudice Count One of the indictment as to them.






This may be at least the fifth time I'm telling you this, but I KNOW THAT LEGALLY THE CASE AGAINST THOSE OTHER DEFENDENTS WASN'T DROPPED.  I've been asking you to use a little common sense that to understand that if the case against the parent company was dropped, it should be obvious that the case against the other defendants acting on behalf of the parent falls apart.

Obviously Mueller can't just admit this like you (and I) think he should.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know what your motivation is here to lie like this, but it's crystal clear to me, a trained, experienced legal professional, that the case is still very much pending as to the individual defendants.



Alrighty then, here it is for at least the sixth time:  I KNOW THAT LEGALLY THE CASE AGAINST THOSE OTHER DEFENDENTS WASN'T DROPPED.  I've been asking you to use a little common sense that to understand that if the case against the parent company was dropped, it should be obvious that the case against the other defendants acting on behalf of the parent falls apart.

Maybe not legally, but logically.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608586 - 04/17/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That is an opinion piece falcon. First it's by the nation which would be fine if they cited real intelligence orgs. Let me break down ur own link to you

Headlines warn that Russian trolls have tried to suppress the African-American vote, promote Green Party candidate Jill Stein, recruit “assets,” and “sow discord” or “hack the 2016 election” via sex-toy ads and Pokémon Go. 

Already misrepresenting reality and sounding more then a little bias but let's continue

They say the research they pointed out was "dubious figures" again an opinion

The researchers claim that “the scale of [the Russian] operation was unprecedented,” but they base that conclusion on dubious figures. They repeat the widespread claim that Russian posts “reached 126 million people on Facebook,” which is in fact a spin on Facebook’s own guess. “Our best estimate,” Facebook’s Colin Stretch testified to Congress in October 2017, “is that approximately 126 million people may have been served one of these [IRA] stories at some time during the two year period” between 2015 and 2017. According to Stretch, posts generated by suspected Russian accounts showing up in Facebook’s News Feed amounted to “approximately 1 out of 23,000 pieces of content.”

Facebook told them an approximate figure if they didn't know they wouldn't have any approximate figures especially when testifying or being part of an investigation Facebook can't lie or else they'd be taken down if anyone found out for no gain. Secondly the end there basically says there's tons of people on Facebook and it was ONLY 1 out of 23,000 pieces of content....... out of billions of pieces of content morons.

There is no proof anywhere in that link


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608587 - 04/17/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, you actually believe that you know everything the government does about the investigation?



I certainly knew they would drop they would have to drop this case.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608594 - 04/17/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
if the case against the parent company was dropped, it should be obvious that the case against the other defendants acting on behalf of the parent falls apart.




No, that is not obvious at all.  From my perspective, it is obvious why prosecuting a legal entity for a crime is not as desirable as prosecuting actual human beings.  Entities can, at best, be fined.  Foreign entities, when fined, can often not be collected from.  In other words, it's spending millions to prosecute with no actual punishment ever happening.

So, you're going to have to explain to me why a dismissal of the company exonerates the owner and employees of that company.  I'm dying to hear this explanation, since it's so obvious to you.

While you're at it, explain how a dismissal against Concord has anything whatsoever to do with the 12 Russian agents who are defendants in the other case about election interference.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26608596 - 04/17/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That is an opinion piece falcon. First it's by the nation which would be fine if they cited real intelligence orgs. Let me break down ur own link to you

Headlines warn that Russian trolls have tried to suppress the African-American vote, promote Green Party candidate Jill Stein, recruit “assets,” and “sow discord” or “hack the 2016 election” via sex-toy ads and Pokémon Go. 

Already misrepresenting reality and sounding more then a little bias but let's continue



HOORAY!  YOU FINALLY GET IT!!!  They were quoting the Washington Post and New York Times, which ARE a little biased.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
They say the research they pointed out was "dubious figures" again an opinion



What would a better adjective have been?

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
The researchers claim that “the scale of [the Russian] operation was unprecedented,” but they base that conclusion on dubious figures. They repeat the widespread claim that Russian posts “reached 126 million people on Facebook,” which is in fact a spin on Facebook’s own guess. “Our best estimate,” Facebook’s Colin Stretch testified to Congress in October 2017, “is that approximately 126 million people may have been served one of these [IRA] stories at some time during the two year period” between 2015 and 2017. According to Stretch, posts generated by suspected Russian accounts showing up in Facebook’s News Feed amounted to “approximately 1 out of 23,000 pieces of content.”

Facebook told them an approximate figure if they didn't know they wouldn't have any approximate figures especially when testifying or being part of an investigation Facebook can't lie or else they'd be taken down if anyone found out for no gain. Secondly the end there basically says there's tons of people on Facebook and it was ONLY 1 out of 23,000 pieces of content....... out of billions of pieces of content morons.

There is no proof anywhere in that link



I don't get it.  Are you saying the estimate of the numbers from Facebook was right or wrong?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608627 - 04/17/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, that is not obvious at all.  From my perspective, it is obvious why prosecuting a legal entity for a crime is not as desirable as prosecuting actual human beings.  Entities can, at best, be fined.  Foreign entities, when fined, can often not be collected from.  In other words, it's spending millions to prosecute with no actual punishment ever happening.



You see absolutely no value in proving election interference?!?  Are you fucking joking?  :flowstone:

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, you're going to have to explain to me why a dismissal of the company exonerates the owner and employees of that company.  I'm dying to hear this explanation, since it's so obvious to you.



If the company in charge is exonerated, you don't understand how the people who act on behalf of that company aren't?

Again, use just a little logic and common sense.  I don't care if the case is still legally open and if Mueller put in a few lines to confuse people like you.

Quote:

Enlil said:
While you're at it, explain how a dismissal against Concord has anything whatsoever to do with the 12 Russian agents who are defendants in the other case about election interference.



It has nothing to do with the other case; you're the only one who keeps saying it does.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608634 - 04/17/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You see absolutely no value in proving election interference?!?  Are you fucking joking?  :flowstone:


Strawman fallacy:  I never said that.
Quote:


If the company in charge is exonerated, you don't understand how the people who act on behalf of that company aren't?

Again, use just a little logic and common sense.  I don't care if the case is still legally open and if Mueller put in a few lines to confuse people like you.



No.  Please explain it.  Obviously, my logic and common sense are lacking.  I need you to explain to me how the decision to not pursue charges against a company exonerates the owner and employees of that company.

Quote:


It has nothing to do with the other case; you're the only one who keeps saying it does.



So, you admit that there is an open felony prosecution against 12 Russian agents for crimes related to election interference and that those 12 Russian agents have not been exonerated?  That's some progress, I suppose.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608640 - 04/17/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Bullshit they quoted sex toys and pokemon go from any major news outlet.


That's just the thing using the adjective dubious shouldn't be your end all proof you can hang your hat on it's an opinion from a clearly pro Russian or far right opinionist. You event presented any proof and demand it from others.

I'm saying that Facebook confirmed it happened on a large scale, looked at the numbers saying Our best estimate,” Facebook’s Colin Stretch testified to Congress in October 2017, “is that approximately 126 million people may have been served one of these [IRA] stories at some time during the two year period” between 2015 and 2017.

They know their numbers while terifying and that's a fucking massive amount of Russian troll posts to interfere with the election.

Enlil is right that it makes a lot more sense to charge the individuals because being a compny already just in America they'd get fined but when you charge the individuals justice can be more attainable. Still if we locked em up it would've kicked Trump out of office and possibly started a war with Russia which Trump fought tooth and nail to get out of. He even had Roger Stone do the dirty work and pardoned his happy ass almost immediately.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26608650 - 04/17/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Roger Stone hasn't been pardoned.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608664 - 04/17/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

...yet :smirk:

:chump: . . . :peace:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608666 - 04/17/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Roger Stone hasn't been pardoned.



Sorry his sentence was reduced thanks to him I was thinking of Arpiao crazy ass Trump


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608670 - 04/17/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You see absolutely no value in proving election interference?!?  Are you fucking joking?  :flowstone:



Strawman fallacy:  I never said that.



You said you saw no value in prosecuting the case.  So I explained the value to you.  Now do you understand why the case shouldn't have been dropped?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If the company in charge is exonerated, you don't understand how the people who act on behalf of that company aren't?

Again, use just a little logic and common sense.  I don't care if the case is still legally open and if Mueller put in a few lines to confuse people like you.



No.  Please explain it.  Obviously, my logic and common sense are lacking.



If I work for a company that makes a questionable product, and that company is then exonerated for making that product, do you think the employees of the company should still be found guilty for making it?  I know you get this argument, but I don't get the game you're playing.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It has nothing to do with the other case; you're the only one who keeps saying it does.



So, you admit that there is an open felony prosecution against 12 Russian agents for crimes related to election interference and that those 12 Russian agents have not been exonerated?  That's some progress, I suppose.



It's progress for you now that you understand.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 1
    #26608683 - 04/17/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's just the thing using the adjective dubious shouldn't be your end all proof you can hang your hat on it's an opinion from a clearly pro Russian or far right opinionist.



I agree.  And I never used the word 'dubious' to prove anything I said.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You never presented any proof and demand it from others.



Burden of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making a claim.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I'm saying that Facebook confirmed it happened on a large scale, looked at the numbers saying Our best estimate,” Facebook’s Colin Stretch testified to Congress in October 2017, “is that approximately 126 million people may have been served one of these [IRA] stories at some time during the two year period” between 2015 and 2017.

They know their numbers while terifying and that's a fucking massive amount of Russian troll posts to interfere with the election.



So the 1 in 23,000 was correct.  That's not a lot, actually.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Enlil is right that it makes a lot more sense to charge the individuals because being a compny already just in America they'd get fined but when you charge the individuals justice can be more attainable.



I get that.  But the main goal of the US was to prove election interference, not to put some nobody Russian kid in jail, and that opportunity may now be lost forever.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/17/20 05:51 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608699 - 04/17/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's just the thing using the adjective dubious shouldn't be your end all proof you can hang your hat on it's an opinion from a clearly pro Russian or far right opinionist.



I agree.  And I never used the word 'dubious' to prove anything I said.

ST: Yes but your link did

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You never presented any proof and demand it from others.



Burden of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making a claim.

ST: Exactly you're the one making a claim that the evidence isn't there burden of proof is on you in this one logically
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I'm saying that Facebook confirmed it happened on a large scale, looked at the numbers saying Our best estimate,” Facebook’s Colin Stretch testified to Congress in October 2017, “is that approximately 126 million people may have been served one of these [IRA] stories at some time during the two year period” between 2015 and 2017.

They know their numbers while terifying and that's a fucking massive amount of Russian troll posts to interfere with the election.



So the 1 in 23,000 was correct.  That's not a lot, actually.
ST: 126 million posts during an election from a foreign power isn't a lot that's horse shit

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Enlil is right that it makes a lot more sense to charge the individuals because being a compny already just in America they'd get fined but when you charge the individuals justice can be more attainable.



I get that.  But the main goal of the US was to prove election interference, and that opportunity may now be lost forever.




ST: There's plenty of proof they interfered as indicated by the indictments and court cases the first of their kind I might add they made their cases and provided more details then we will ever know. You just say the parent corporation didn't get charged so none of it happened and that it's somehow a fact when it just isn't


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608705 - 04/17/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You said you saw no value in prosecuting the case.  So I explained the value to you.  Now do you understand why the case shouldn't have been dropped?


No, I didn't say that.  You said I said it.  That's a strawman.  I said that I see more value in prosecuting the individuals than the company. 

And since you asked, no, I don't understand why you believe the case shouldn't have been dropped.  I understand completely why it was dropped, and I believe the prosecutors made the right call.  To continue prosecuting would have required revealing classified information.  There would have been no one punished from the prosecution.  That is a net loss for the government. 

Frankly, I see this all the time.  It happens in cases that have undercover officers or CIs.  The government has to make a choice between prosecuting and keeping the UC or CI.  For a low-value conviction, they aren't going to give up their assets.  Concord is a much lower value conviction than the individuals.
Quote:




If I work for a company that makes a questionable product, and that company is then exonerated for making that product, do you think the employees of the company should still be found guilty for making it?  I know you get this argument, but I don't get the game you're playing.


You think Concord was being prosecuted for a product they make? That's silly.  This is about conduct...not manufacturing.  I'm not even sure what the fuck you're trying to say here.

A company CAN be liable for the criminal conduct of the employees, but it's not automatic.  It's very rare, actually.  On the other hand, the employees are absolutely criminally liable for their own conduct, regardless of whether they were acting at the direction of their employer.  This is the fatal flaw in your whole argument.  If the employees had been dismissed, the company would have to be.  The company being dismissed does absolutely nothing to the criminal liability of the employees, however.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 1
    #26608731 - 04/17/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
There's plenty of proof they interfered as indicated by the indictments



I keep asking you to share this evidence that you know exists.  Pretty please?  With a cherry on top???

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You just say the parent corporation didn't get charged so none of it happened and that it's somehow a fact when it just isn't



If the parent company is exonerated of election interference, that means the people who worked on behalf of the parent company are too.  I didn't see different charges in the indictment against the employees.  Maybe you or Enlil can point these out?  Pretty please?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608763 - 04/17/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, I didn't say that.  I said that I see more value in prosecuting the individuals than the company.



I understand.  Do you think they'll prosecute the individuals now that they dismissed the case against the parent company?

Quote:

Enlil said:
I understand completely why it was dropped, and I believe the prosecutors made the right call.  To continue prosecuting would have required revealing classified information.



The classified information may have been that they had no evidence.  Can you offer a better guess?

Quote:

Enlil said:
There would have been no one punished from the prosecution.  That is a net loss for the government.



Finding a Russian entity guilty of election interference would have been a HUGE win.  Now we've got nothing, and likely never will.

Quote:

Enlil said:
For a low-value conviction, they aren't going to give up their assets.  Concord is a much lower value conviction than the individuals.



What's so valuable about a lowly Concord employee?  The value is proving a Russian company guilty of election interference for the millions of people who don't blindly trust our Government, like me.

Quote:

Enlil said:
A company CAN be liable for the criminal conduct of the employees, but it's not automatic.  It's very rare, actually.  On the other hand, the employees are absolutely criminally liable for their own conduct, regardless of whether they were acting at the direction of their employer.  This is the fatal flaw in your whole argument.  If the employees had been dismissed, the company would have to be.  The company being dismissed does absolutely nothing to the criminal liability of the employees, however.



Once again, you CLEARLY don't seem to know what this case is about.  It's not about rogue employees doing bad things.  It's about employees doing exactly what the company hired them to do.  I'll quote the indictment again:  (Concord employees) "worked in various capacities to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations"


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/17/20 07:03 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608869 - 04/17/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I understand.  Do you think they'll prosecute the individuals now that they dismissed the case against the parent company?


If they can get them to the U.S., definitely. If not, maybe.

Quote:

The classified information may have been that they had no evidence.  Can you offer a better guess?


That wouldn't make sense.  They didn't prosecute because they didn't want to turn over evidence they didn't have?  A better guess is that information was gathered using technologies and/or assets that they don't want revealed.
Quote:


Finding Russia guilty of election interference would have been a HUGE win.  Now we've got nothing, and likely never will.


Concord isn't Russia, though.  Prosecuting Concord wouldn't be finding Russia guilty of anything.  The Russian agent prosecution would be far closer to implicating Russia than a Concord conviction.
Quote:




What's so valuable about a lowly Concord employee?  The value is proving a Russian company guilty of election interference for the millions of people who don't blindly trust our Government, like me.


I think you're confused.  Concord isn't a company owned by Russia.  It's owned by a private individual.  A conviction of Concord wouldn't be a conviction of Russia, the nation.  All that would happen is that the company would never do business in the U.S., and they'd never suffer any consequences whatsoever.
Quote:



Once again, you CLEARLY don't seem to know what this case is about.  It's not about rogue employees doing bad things.  It's about employees doing exactly what the company hired them to do.  I'll quote the indictment again:  (Concord employees) "worked in various capacities to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations"



I get that.  That doesn't mean the individuals aren't responsible for their actions, though.  I don't know how many ways I can say it.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608935 - 04/17/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The classified information may have been that they had no evidence.  Can you offer a better guess?



That wouldn't make sense.  They didn't prosecute because they didn't want to turn over evidence they didn't have?



If this was a make believe, like WMDs in Iraq, the Government wouldn't want people to know that.

Quote:

Enlil said:
A better guess is that information was gathered using technologies and/or assets that they don't want revealed.



That's the official story.  Kind of like Iraq has WMDs was the official story.  It was a very bad guess though.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Finding Russia guilty of election interference would have been a HUGE win.  Now we've got nothing, and likely never will.



Concord isn't Russia, though.  Prosecuting Concord wouldn't be finding Russia guilty of anything.  The Russian agent prosecution would be far closer to implicating Russia than a Concord conviction.



Concord employees aren't Russia either.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's so valuable about a lowly Concord employee?  The value is proving a Russian company guilty of election interference for the millions of people who don't blindly trust our Government, like me.



I think you're confused.  Concord isn't a company owned by Russia.  It's owned by a private individual.  A conviction of Concord wouldn't be a conviction of Russia, the nation.  All that would happen is that the company would never do business in the U.S., and they'd never suffer any consequences whatsoever.



So a conviction of a Concord employee WOULD be a conviction of Russia?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Once again, you CLEARLY don't seem to know what this case is about.  It's not about rogue employees doing bad things.  It's about employees doing exactly what the company hired them to do.  I'll quote the indictment again:  (Concord employees) "worked in various capacities to carry out Defendant ORGANIZATION’s interference operations"



I get that.  That doesn't mean the individuals aren't responsible for their actions, though.  I don't know how many ways I can say it.



For maybe the seventh time now, I KNOW THAT LEGALLY THE CASE AGAINST THOSE OTHER DEFENDENTS WASN'T DROPPED.  I've been asking you to use a little common sense to understand that if the case against the parent company was dropped, it should be obvious that the case against employees acting on behalf of the parent probably isn't too strong either.  Unless they were rogue employees doing things the parent company didn't want them doing.  But I missed that in the indictment.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608947 - 04/17/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

No, a conviction of the employees wouldn't be a conviction of Russia. As I said before,  Russia is a sovereign nation. There is no mechanism to convict it.

As to your last rant, there's no reason to believe the case against Concord was dropped because it wasn't a strong case. Similarly,  there's no reason to believe the case against the individuals isn't a strong case. Prosecutors rarely bring weak cases.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608968 - 04/17/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think at this point, we're probably just going in circles.  Ultimately, we have zero evidence of wrongdoing, and this boils down to whether we have blind faith in our Government or not.

As a reminder, however, "the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities" and the case against Concord was dismissed.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Prosecutors rarely bring weak cases.



Unless they think the defense won't show up.  But if they do, then it appears they'll have to drop weak cases.  :smirk:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608972 - 04/17/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That's why it went before a grand jury.  They did see the evidence,  and they indicted.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608983 - 04/17/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Again, at least one person who saw the grand jury evidence said the Russia probe was started 'without any basis'.

Blind faith vs a desire for evidence.  :shrug:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26608987 - 04/17/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well,  if one person said it, the 24 person grand jury must be wrong.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26608996 - 04/17/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

There's a whole criminal investigation going on being led by John Durham and team.  I suspect they're more qualified than a grand Jury full of paranoid koods and Seriously Trippins?

"Prosecutors rarely bring weak cases" so I guess we'll see where this goes.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26609345 - 04/17/20 11:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
There's plenty of proof they interfered as indicated by the indictments



I keep asking you to share this evidence that you know exists.  Pretty please?  With a cherry on top???



***CRICKETS***

Did I not ask nicely enough?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26609497 - 04/18/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
There's plenty of proof they interfered as indicated by the indictments



I keep asking you to share this evidence that you know exists.  Pretty please?  With a cherry on top???



***CRICKETS***

Did I not ask nicely enough?



It's useless to prove your conspiracy theory wrong when courts above your head and a lawyer here are tearing your arguments apart. I'm not the one trying to convince people of something and no matter what I say to you you're not going to believe anything else. So if you want to believe Russia is awesome, all those people wanted to be annexed in Kiev to Crimea or that the Russians didn't deliberately interfere with our election that's your prerogative.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26609586 - 04/18/20 04:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You're alone in the belief that nothing at all was found. It's a fairytale land where Russia was exonerated which just did not happen.



First of all, I was correct in my signature bet that the Mueller Report would find no evidence of Trump colluding with the Russian Government.  The Mueller Report specifically said that "Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities."

Then you, koods, and a few others insisted that the Mueller Report DID find evidence of Russian election interference, as evidenced by the indictments.  So I then made another signature bet that Concord would either win or the case would have to be dropped due to a lack of evidence.  I won that bet as well.

I find it odd that after being right on this (and so many other things like the Douma chemical attacks), you guys still make believe there's something there.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
We've all gone through this conversation before



Yes, the conversation where I ask for specific evidence, and you tell me it's buried somewhere in the Mueller Report, and if I would only read the whole thing I might be the first person in the wide world to find it.

I'll ask again, what specific evidence do you have?  I won't play make believe, as you and koods should know by now.




Whether Trump knowingly conspired and whether there was evidence of Russian interference are different issues. That Russia interfered is a known fact. To what extent it made a difference is open to interpretation.

Everyone keeps repeating themselves here, so I'll repeat myself again. I was found not guilty of a DUI with a BAC of .23%. I don't see the decision on Concord as being any different. A case being dropped due to lack of evidence, does not make that make believe.

Look at the allegations against George W Bush who was in the Texas Air National Guard during the Viet Nam War, and disappeared for a couple years when a drug test was scheduled.
When 60 Minutes exposed this, Dan Rather's career was temporarily ruined and the journalistic career of his Peabody winning producer Mary Mapes was completely destroyed. Were they wrong about the facts. Nope. But there were procedural errors in the investigation.

Technicalities and procedural errors are a completely different animal than make believe.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26609736 - 04/18/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You're completely right, and to be clear: Nothing was dropped "due to lack of evidence."  That's pure speculation on the part of Falcon.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26610634 - 04/18/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I finally got a chance to read your post with its links - sorry for the slow response.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Trump and Hillary are old school propagandists. They pushed content and tried to reach people. The Russian method simply fooled the existing algorithms into pushing the content they preferred to the people that they wanted to target. Which is why so little of the spending was directly political, because they weren't making ads, they were breaking algorithms.



Source, or make believe?




These guys are a bit behind the ball, but what else do you expect from Time?

Fact it, you either see it or you don't. Clearly, you don't.



Exactly.  Their spending wasn't political, it was about click-bait advertising.  I recognized this long before anyone else did.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Here's more.

Quote:

Once a blog post was created, the troll exclaimed, “Then the magic began!”

The computers were designed to forward the post to the agency’s countless fake accounts, opening and closing the post to create huge numbers of fake page views.



That's the thing. You think the bots were generating content? Hell no. The bots were generating clicks, upvotes, likes, whatever the platform calls it.



I'm unable to read your NY Times article as I don't have a subscription, but that's more evidence of click bait advertising.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Real people generated the content. Smart, well educated professionals wrote a few influential articles and blog posts, and the bots amplified the message by making it seem popular. And then it started showing up in people's twitter feeds with a bunch of likes and shit, and it took off. Then these articles would be discussed at length on forums like this. As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain that this Biden thread is a perfect example. Actually, this one is a better example.. OP read something that popped up on their news feed, due to an algorithm. And chances are, what they read wasn't written by a Russian, either.



So Russians are able to get people to discuss topics we might not otherwise pay attention to?  If true (and I believe it), then what they're doing is getting Americans to discuss things they might not otherwise discuss.  I realize that's exactly what the CIA is against, but I'm ok with that personally.  At the end of the discussion, we should all have a better understanding of fact vs make believe.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Here's a fun little exercise. You know how coronavirus is fake and the symptoms are just due to exposure to 5g as part of a massive worldwide plan by Bill Gates to implant microchips in people through vaccines? Well, don't take my word for it. I suggest you find a certain Dr. Andrew Kaufman, psychiatrist. Now, I wonder why a psychiatrist who lost their license to practice in the state of Ohio had a shitty little youtube channel for a while, which suddenly went from 100 to 10,000 subscribers overnight, after posting a short little video that racked up half a million views in a day. Guess his message really resonated with the people, huh?

---

This is the last time I will explain this to you, because it's exhausting and I have better shit to do with my time.



That's a great thought experiment - but the one example I found of that showing up on the shroomery said this:

Quote:

Go read the comments on Breitbart. I do it on occasion just to see what crazy stuff people are spewing.
.
.
.
"The global cabal did this on purpose...in 2019 Bill Gates had a mock pandemic...event 201 = agenda 21.all done by design for depopulation and micro chip every single on of us with a microchip. I hope President Trump is not part of this!"




So no one supported it.

A better example might be your discussion on whether 5G is harmful to health or not.  I haven't researched that one yet, but if Russia started the conversation to get people to look into it more, how is that a bad thing?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 2
    #26610661 - 04/18/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
It's useless to prove your conspiracy theory wrong when courts above your head and a lawyer here are tearing your arguments apart.



A few things you seem to have missed.  The courts didn't tear my arguments apart, they actually dismissed the case against the parent company, Concord.  Enlil didn't 'tear my argument apart' either, I showed him that he was wrong in saying that "Concord did not volunteer to take it to court", and he was smart enough not to argue the point further.  I think Enlil and I both agree about the facts of the case up to this point except one thing that I will respond to right after this post.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I'm not the one trying to convince people of something and no matter what I say to you you're not going to believe anything else.



Try me.  I keep asking you for your evidence, and you never respond.  How about 'pretty please with TWO cherries on top'?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26610666 - 04/18/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Nothing was dropped "due to lack of evidence."  That's pure speculation on the part of Falcon.



Fair enough.  But to say "nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence' is also pure speculation on your part.  You don't know why it was dropped.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26610682 - 04/18/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
That Russia interfered is a known fact. To what extent it made a difference is open to interpretation.



Everyone kept pointing to the indictments in the Mueller report as evidence, so when Concord decided to call bullshit and take this to court, I made the signature bet that the case against Concord would either be lost or dropped.  I won that bet (unless dismissed means something different than dropped), though everyone was somehow smart enough to know I would win.

So have you been holding out on evidence this whole time after I kept asking others for it?

:ohyou:


I can't wait to see what you've kept from us!


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26610740 - 04/18/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
That Russia interfered is a known fact. To what extent it made a difference is open to interpretation.



Everyone kept pointing to the indictments in the Mueller report as evidence, so when Concord decided to call bullshit and take this to court, I made the signature bet that the case against Concord would either be lost or dropped.  I won that bet (unless dismissed means something different than dropped), though everyone was somehow smart enough to know I would win.

So have you been holding out on evidence this whole time after I kept asking others for it?

:ohyou:


I can't wait to see what you've kept from us!




I also "interfered" in the election by posting about Trump and Clinton on the internet. Guilty as charged!! Yet, where is the selective outrage?  :popcorn:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26610756 - 04/18/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Nothing was dropped "due to lack of evidence."  That's pure speculation on the part of Falcon.



Fair enough.  But to say "nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence' is also pure speculation on your part.  You don't know why it was dropped.



I didn't speculate at all.  The prosecutor specified EXACTLY his reasons for dropping the case against the entities.  That is one person who actually knows why.  There's nothing speculative about that at all.  Yes, he MAY be lying, but you only have speculation to support a theory that he is.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: qman]
    #26610760 - 04/18/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

I also "interfered" in the election by posting about Trump and Clinton on the internet. Guilty as charged!! Yet, where is the selective outrage?  :popcorn:



That's not a crime, though.  That is specifically protected speech under the Constitution.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26610805 - 04/18/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The prosecutor specified EXACTLY his reasons for dropping the case against the entities.  That is one person who actually knows why.  There's nothing speculative about that at all.  Yes, he MAY be lying, but you only have speculation to support a theory that he is.



You didn't originally say that.  You said "Nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence."

You should have said "The prosecutor stated that nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence."


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26610808 - 04/18/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's not a crime, though.  That is specifically protected speech under the Constitution.



Is it a crime to talk to Russians on social media?  Or maybe the better question is "is it illegal for Russians to talk to Americans on social media"?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26610829 - 04/18/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
The prosecutor specified EXACTLY his reasons for dropping the case against the entities.  That is one person who actually knows why.  There's nothing speculative about that at all.  Yes, he MAY be lying, but you only have speculation to support a theory that he is.



You didn't originally say that.  You said "Nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence."

You should have said "The prosecutor stated that nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence."



Why?  I have no reason to doubt the person who actually dismissed those charges.  You have no reason either....no rational reason, at least.

I am a person of reason, after all.
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Is it a crime to talk to Russians on social media?  Or maybe the better question is "is it illegal for Russians to talk to Americans on social media"?


No. Not in itself.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26610871 - 04/18/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You should have said "The prosecutor stated that nothing was dropped due to lack of evidence."



Why?  I have no reason to doubt the person who actually dismissed those charges.  You have no reason either....no rational reason, at least.



Actually, I have a LOT of rational reasons.

Number one, the US lies all the time about countries it wants citizens to think of as enemies, such as China and Russia.
Number two, have you read this post yet about the analysis of Russian interference?
Number three, why didn't you take my signature bet where I bet this case would be lost or dropped?

Looks like my previous statement was correct.  You are indeed 'king of the gullible'.  Your signature should say "I'm Enlil, and I believe whatever the US Goverment wants me to believe!"


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26610891 - 04/18/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not believing something because the government says it is just as bad as believing something because the government says it.  You're just as much of a slave.

Of course, I don't believe it because the government says it.  I believe it because it makes perfect sense, it's supported by well-established authority, and I've seen it happen dozens of times.  If there were facts that pointed to some other reason or some hidden agenda, I might feel differently.  So far, such facts have not been revealed.

And just for the record, you didn't win the signature bet.  You specified that YEVGENIY wins or the charges against him are dropped.  Neither have happened to date.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26610921 - 04/18/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I showed him that he was wrong in saying that "Concord did not volunteer to take it to court", and he was smart enough not to argue the point



That's not actually true.  I was correct.  I just realized that you wouldn't understand the difference between voluntarily taking it to court and voluntarily making an appearance in the case.  I also realized that it would be little more than an argument about a point of law that is largely boring and irrelevant, so I left it by the wayside.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26611070 - 04/18/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Not believing something because the government says it is just as bad as believing something because the government says it.  You're just as much of a slave.



I don't "not believe something" just "because the government says it".  I don't believe something for the reasons I provided you that you completely ignored.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course, I don't believe it because the government says it.  I believe it because it makes perfect sense, it's supported by well-established authority, and I've seen it happen dozens of times.  If there were facts that pointed to some other reason or some hidden agenda, I might feel differently.  So far, such facts have not been revealed.



Excellent.  Then we should discuss the above 3 points above one at a time.

Quote:

Enlil said:
And just for the record, you didn't win the signature bet.  You specified that YEVGENIY wins or the charges against him are dropped.  Neither have happened to date.



The case that was set to go to trial was the case against Concord.  Concord is owned by Yevgeny.  Maybe you didn't know that?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26611074 - 04/18/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I showed him that he was wrong in saying that "Concord did not volunteer to take it to court", and he was smart enough not to argue the point



That's not actually true.  I was correct.  I just realized that you wouldn't understand the difference between voluntarily taking it to court and voluntarily making an appearance in the case.  I also realized that it would be little more than an argument about a point of law that is largely boring and irrelevant, so I left it by the wayside.



Fine, Concord 'voluntarily made an appearance' to the great surprise of Mueller.

You just have ensure every 'i' is dotted and every 't' is crossed.  :shake:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26611075 - 04/18/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The case against him is still very much active.  I'm pretty sure you knew that.

As to your three reasons, one was because you think everything the government says is a lie, another is because of some silly internet bet. The other links to some post that has very little, if anything, to do with the charges in the indictment.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26611085 - 04/18/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Fine, Concord 'voluntarily made an appearance' to the great surprise of Mueller.

You just have ensure every 'i' is dotted and every 't' is crossed.  :shake:



No, it wasn't a surprise that it made an appearance.  This is a stupid discussion, but you'll just claim victory if we don't have it. 

Concord making an appearance is legally submitting to the jurisdiction of the court.  Yet, when asked for discovery material, concord claimed that the court lacked jurisdiction to require those materials to be turned over.  This is the part that is a "surprise" insofar as concord availed itself of the court's jurisdiction to get discovery but denied it when it came time to turn over discovery. 

And this is why it was not a good idea to continue prosecution of the entity.  It would have required turning over secrets that may have jeopardized assets or the cases against the individuals.  At the same time, Concord was never going to turn over the subpoenaed information.  Since prosecution of the individuals was more important, the government chose to abandon the prosecution of the entities in order to improve its position vis a vis prosecuting the individuals.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26611194 - 04/18/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
A better example might be your discussion on whether 5G is harmful to health or not.  I haven't researched that one yet, but if Russia started the conversation to get people to look into it more, how is that a bad thing?




Sure man, sure. A semi-coordinated arson campaign against the communications infrastructure of multiple countries is a good thing. All part of the "discussion".


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26611250 - 04/18/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Lol 5G harmful to health 🤦‍♂️

It’s fascinating to watch falcon slowly get radicalized into the alt right


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Edited by koods (04/18/20 06:51 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26611403 - 04/18/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The case against him is still very much active.  I'm pretty sure you knew that.



Yes, I knew that.  In fact, this will about the 8th time I'm going to tell you I KNOW THAT LEGALLY THE CASE AGAINST THOSE OTHER DEFENDENTS WASN'T DISMISSED.  I'm asking you to use a little common sense to understand that if the case against the parent company was dismissed, it should be obvious that the case against employees who were acting on behalf of the parent probably isn't very strong either.  Unless they were rogue employees doing things the parent company didn't want them doing.  But I missed that in the indictment.

Quote:

Enlil said:
As to your three reasons, one was because you think everything the government says is a lie



The only things from the Government I don't believe are things that don't have any proof.  I'll remind you about the following:

- The Mueller Report specifically concluded that "the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities."
- Der Spiegel found that Bill Browder WAS indeed lying about the Sergei Magnitsky story
- A fourth OPCW whistleblower came out and said the OPCW report blaming Syria for the Douma chemical attacks was bogus
- And of course there's this case that was just dismissed

Quote:

Enlil said:
another is because of some silly internet bet.



You call it "silly" because I was right again (Yevgeny owned Concord).  Why did you chicken out from taking that bet?

Quote:

Enlil said:
The other links to some post that has very little, if anything, to do with the charges in the indictment.



That link has everything to do with the indictment, and  if you don't realize that you clearly don't understand this case (except maybe the last clip showing Mueller lying about WMDs - I put that in to show Mueller is a liar).

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, it wasn't a surprise that it made an appearance.  This is a stupid discussion, but you'll just claim victory if we don't have it.



What about this:  "Concord Management decided to fight it... Mueller probably didn't see that coming - and the indictment itself was perhaps nothing more than a PR stunt to bolster the Russian interference narrative."

Or this (by Scott Ritter):  "The Concord Management case, like the case against the Russian intelligence officers, was never meant to go to trial...  Concord Management, however, took everyone by surprise"

Or this:  "I don’t think anyone (including Mueller) anticipated that any of the defendants would appear in court to defend against the charges...  One of the Russian corporate defendants nevertheless hired counsel to contest the charges."

Quote:

Enlil said:
Concord making an appearance is legally submitting to the jurisdiction of the court.  Yet, when asked for discovery material, concord claimed that the court lacked jurisdiction to require those materials to be turned over.  This is the part that is a "surprise" insofar as concord availed itself of the court's jurisdiction to get discovery but denied it when it came time to turn over discovery.



I explained that already.  Concord wanted discovery information as well, but Mueller argued he didn't have to give it (see more below).

Quote:

Enlil said:
And this is why it was not a good idea to continue prosecution of the entity.  It would have required turning over secrets that may have jeopardized assets or the cases against the individuals.  At the same time, Concord was never going to turn over the subpoenaed information.  Since prosecution of the individuals was more important, the government chose to abandon the prosecution of the entities in order to improve its position vis a vis prosecuting the individuals.



So did the Government have a case, or did they actually need subpoenaed materials (which the lawyer for Concord turned over)?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26611405 - 04/18/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Sure man, sure. A semi-coordinated arson campaign against the communications infrastructure of multiple countries is a good thing. All part of the "discussion".



:dudewtf:

Quote:

koods said:
Lol 5G harmful to health 🤦‍♂️

It’s fascinating to watch falcon slowly get radicalized into the alt right



Where did I say whether it was harmful or not, oh great king of make believe?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26611420 - 04/18/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

So did the Government have a case, or did they actually need subpoenaed materials (which the lawyer for Concord turned over)?



Of course they have a case.  They wouldn't have left both of the cases open if they didn't.  Most of the rest of your post is irrelevant ranting. WTF does Magnitsky have to do with any of this?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26611535 - 04/18/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Sure man, sure. A semi-coordinated arson campaign against the communications infrastructure of multiple countries is a good thing. All part of the "discussion".



:dudewtf:




Oh, were you not aware that that was part of the "discussion"? There have been at least 50 incidents of arson in the UK alone, and as of last time I checked the day before yesterday, 19 engineers were physically attacked.

I wonder if this would be happening if not for all those likes and shares?

I'd also note that this isn't "political spending", since while it does have severe political effects, it's just some dumb 5g conspiracy.

Nothing but clickbait.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26611645 - 04/18/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So did the Government have a case, or did they actually need subpoenaed materials (which the lawyer for Concord turned over)?



Of course they have a case.  They wouldn't have left both of the cases open if they didn't.



Or they were trying to trick gullible people into thinking there is a case.

Yevgeny Prigozhin wants this case to either go back to trial, or for all charges to be removed from his company due to lack of guilt and corpus delicti.  Things remain interesting...

Quote:

Enlil said:
Most of the rest of your post is irrelevant ranting. WTF does Magnitsky have to do with any of this?



I listed the cases you and I had argued about where I turned out to be correct.


Again, as I mentioned before, "this boils down to whether we have blind faith in our Government or not."


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26611660 - 04/18/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Oh, were you not aware that that was part of the "discussion"? There have been at least 50 incidents of arson in the UK alone, and as of last time I checked the day before yesterday, 19 engineers were physically attacked.



Did I ever say I endorsed that, or it was ok?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I wonder if this would be happening if not for all those likes and shares?



Maybe not.  So do you feel we should ban the ability to have a discussion on this?  Or what's your point exactly?


--------------------
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26611716 - 04/18/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Oh, were you not aware that that was part of the "discussion"? There have been at least 50 incidents of arson in the UK alone, and as of last time I checked the day before yesterday, 19 engineers were physically attacked.



Did I ever say I endorsed that, or it was ok?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I wonder if this would be happening if not for all those likes and shares?



Maybe not.  So do you feel we should ban the ability to have a discussion on this?  Or what's your point exactly?




I'm simply explaining what happens when you dismiss everything as "clickbait". The overton window moves. Maybe the crazy weirdo, instead of getting a few "woah, chill dude" gets a few hundred likes and decides they aren't so crazy after all. Maybe the people that would have said "woah dude, chill" see all those likes and stay quiet.

And then maybe it goes on for, say, half a decade. And suddenly, arson becomes part of the discussion. After all, a discussion is simply a group of people expressing their opinions. Violence is also an expression of opinion.

If I had a solution, I wouldn't be explaining the problem, I'd be ignoring you and fixing it. As of right now, my only plan is informing other people as to what is happening. Maybe someone else can help come up with a solution, instead of dismissing the whole thing as "clickbait advertising".


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26611724 - 04/18/20 10:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This is pointless.  You just declare victory regardless.  You were wrong about Magnitsky.  You're wrong now.  You simply disregard all verifiable facts and claim victory.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #26611792 - 04/18/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

By the way, speaking of crazy new things that just pop up out of nowhere overnight and suddenly lead to groups of people destroying shit, here's something interesting someone noticed a few hours back:

Quote:

There's an imperial ton of astroturfing going on, and it's quite visible in how those groups popped up literally overnight (hint-hint). The thing is that they targeted groups who were... how does one say... more receptive to the message who wouldn't be inclined to look any deeper into what they were joining.

As an example, right now, this is happening in Orange County, CA.

Now, here's a screenshot of the description of the "Operation Gridlock Los Angeles" group when it was first spotted by Buzzfeed News.

Concurrently, here's a screenshot of the description of the "Operation Gridlock Tennessee" group.

But, hey... it's Buzzfeed News right? Cool-cool-cool-cool-cool...

Here's a link to the group "Pennsylvanians Against Excessive Quarantine" - sitting 55,281 members deep at the time of this post.

Okay...

Now here's a link to the group "Minnesotans Against Excessive Quarantine" - presently with 18,938 members.

Why do these groups have the exact same description?

Let's not stop there. Following their own links: one is from the "Pennsylvania Firearms Association", and the other is from the group "Minnesota Gun Rights" - both with the exact same layout.

Both of these domains are registered with the same registrar and were registered on the exact same day at the same time.

[ ~]$ whois reopenmn.com
[Querying whois.verisign-grs.com]
[Redirected to whois.godaddy.com]
[Querying whois.godaddy.com]
[whois.godaddy.com]
Domain Name: reopenmn.com
Registry Domain ID: 2512322197_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2020-04-08T14:39:18Z
Creation Date: 2020-04-08T14:39:17Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2021-04-08T14:39:17Z

[ ~]$ whois reopenpa.com
[Querying whois.verisign-grs.com]
[Redirected to whois.godaddy.com]
[Querying whois.godaddy.com]
[whois.godaddy.com]
Domain Name: reopenpa.com
Registry Domain ID: 2512322050_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2020-04-08T14:37:30Z
Creation Date: 2020-04-08T14:37:29Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2021-04-08T14:37:29Z

The rest of the whois information is obscured by a proxy organization that provides privacy for whois records (I even use them myself as do many others for privacy reasons), so I cannot tell who owns these domains.

Following the pattern of their sites, I checked for "reopenmd.com", but it never resolved to anything. That said, the DNS lookup itself didn't result in a NXDOMAIN error which tells me the domain does exist.

[ ~]$ whois reopenmd.com
[Querying whois.verisign-grs.com]
[Redirected to whois.godaddy.com]
[Querying whois.godaddy.com]
[whois.godaddy.com]
Domain Name: reopenmd.com
Registry Domain ID: 2515645280_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2020-04-17T04:19:17Z
Creation Date: 2020-04-17T04:19:16Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2021-04-17T04:19:16Z
Registrant Organization:
Registrant State/Province: Florida
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenmd.com
Admin Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenmd.com
Tech Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenmd.com

Registered a little more than week later with the same registrar. The thing is, they didn't actually complete their whois information this time, and whoever set it up cheaped out or forgot to pay for the Domains by Proxy service. Although whois information is literally a public record, I'm not inclined to place my account at risk by opening myself up to accusations of doxxing. That said, anyone who feels inclined to can go to https://whois.godaddy.com and search for reopenmd.com. I myself would be personally curious as to why someone in Florida is registering domains claiming to be gun rights organizations in other states.

Seriously, even without that information - who or whomever is responsible for this astroturfing couldn't make this more obvious if they tried. It honestly took me longer to type all of this up to present here than it did for me to find this all. Yet people have taken the bait hook-line-and-sinker.

Meanwhile, the President then starts tweeting "LIBERATE MINNESOTA", "LIBERATE VIRGINIA...", and "LIBERATE MICHIGAN"; and one of the major forces behind the group in Michigan was a political group that has direct ties to and has historically been heavily funded by the family of the Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos (though said family denies direct involvement in last weeks protest)?

In that regard, I'm not alleging some major conspiracy here, but l-o-fucking-l.

Edit: for the record, reopenva.com also exists and has the exact same registry info as reopenmd.com.

[ ~]$ whois reopenva.com
[Querying whois.verisign-grs.com]
[Redirected to whois.godaddy.com]
[Querying whois.godaddy.com]
[whois.godaddy.com]
Domain Name: reopenva.com
Registry Domain ID: 2515650132_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2020-04-17T04:43:47Z
Creation Date: 2020-04-17T04:43:46Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2021-04-17T04:43:46Z
Registrant Organization:
Registrant State/Province: Florida
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenva.com
Admin Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenva.com
Tech Email: Select Contact Domain Holder link at https://www.godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=reopenva.com

Edit 2: Apparently, others have found that a domain for pretty much every other state was registered in the same pattern at the same time.




Credit to a guy that goes by Dr_Midnight

So, a bunch of different groups all pop up on different websites, using the exact same format, layout, and text, claiming to be "grassroots" and "local", except all the domains are registered from one place in Florida.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26611796 - 04/18/20 11:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I'm simply explaining what happens when you dismiss everything as "clickbait".



"Everything"?

:dudewtf:

I only said the Internet Research Agency used clickbait from your own examples.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The overton window moves. Maybe the crazy weirdo, instead of getting a few "woah, chill dude" gets a few hundred likes and decides they aren't so crazy after all. Maybe the people that would have said "woah dude, chill" see all those likes and stay quiet.

And then maybe it goes on for, say, half a decade. And suddenly, arson becomes part of the discussion. After all, a discussion is simply a group of people expressing their opinions. Violence is also an expression of opinion.

If I had a solution, I wouldn't be explaining the problem, I'd be ignoring you and fixing it. As of right now, my only plan is informing other people as to what is happening. Maybe someone else can help come up with a solution, instead of dismissing the whole thing as "clickbait advertising".



I was playing along with your though experiment and you claimed I think "everything" is clickbait and that I support arson and stupid shit like that.

I simply asked if you think it's ok if Russians start a conversation about 5G or not?


--------------------
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26611801 - 04/18/20 11:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This is pointless.  You just declare victory regardless.



Can you show me where I declare victory?

Do you think me asking for evidence and you responding that you don't have it because it's being kept secret by the US Government is me declaring victory???

Quote:

Enlil said:
You were wrong about Magnitsky.  You're wrong now.  You simply disregard all verifiable facts and claim victory.



What verifiable facts did I ignore?  I think it was silly for you to bring up Magnitsky in light of all the new evidence, but I'll play that game in the other thread since there's so much evidence now.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26611803 - 04/18/20 11:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I simply asked if you think it's ok if Russians start a conversation about 5G or not?




Of course it's okay. I wonder why they're doing it from behind proxies?

Similarly, it's perfectly okay for Russians to start a conversation about why Americans should ignore social distancing and protest to reopen the US economy.

Perfectly okay.

As for arson, that's part of the discussion now. It's simply how some people express their opinions now. Also perfectly okay.

It's all good in the hood, as far as I'm concerned.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26611806 - 04/18/20 11:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:whateveryousayfreak:


--------------------
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26611812 - 04/18/20 11:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

What, do you suddenly think it's wrong for Russians to start discussions by VPN-ing into Florida networks, pretending to be US citizens, and, well, "discussing"?

If you read the links I provided, that is what they did.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to start a discussion to me.

And as I literally just mentioned, it appears they have begun a discussion on the wisdom of social distancing and closing down public businesses as a response to Covid-19. Well, "they". Not sure who, yet. Can't prove it was Russian trolls. Just some network from Florida that seems to be organizing groups called "Minnesotans against excessive quarantine". I'm sure they're just minnesotans visiting Disney World.

Just a discussion. Perfectly okay, right?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26612240 - 04/19/20 07:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
By the way, speaking of crazy new things that just pop up out of nowhere overnight and suddenly lead to groups of people destroying shit, here's something interesting someone noticed a few hours back:


Why do these groups have the exact same description?


Both of these domains are registered with the same registrar and were registered on the exact same day at the same time.


anyone who feels inclined to can go to https://whois.godaddy.com and search for reopenmd.com. I myself would be personally curious as to why someone in Florida is registering domains claiming to be gun rights organizations in other states.

Seriously, even without that information - who or whomever is responsible for this astroturfing couldn't make this more obvious if they tried. It honestly took me longer to type all of this up to present here than it did for me to find this all. Yet people have taken the bait hook-line-and-sinker.


Edit 2: Apparently, others have found that a domain for pretty much every other state was registered in the same pattern at the same time.

Credit to a guy that goes by Dr_Midnight

So, a bunch of different groups all pop up on different websites, using the exact same format, layout, and text, claiming to be "grassroots" and "local", except all the domains are registered from one place in Florida.




I checked out whois.godaddy and did a search for reopenmd.com like you suggested and yep, registered to the same name and address in Jacksonville Florida as the other ones.

Nice work :thumbup:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26612293 - 04/19/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yesss makes so much sense.

I’m constantly going on Chinese social media to discuss Chinese politics in Mandarin. Why would an American NOT pretend to be a Russian on Russian SM? That’s how discussions work, duh.

Cmon guys, who among us doesn’t enjoy posing as a foreign national for the purpose of a discussion? Who has NOT learned a foreign language to make political posts under a fake name?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114]
    #26612470 - 04/19/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:joneswtf:  I wonder if Alex knows anything about that address in Jacksonville @ the 1.00 minute mark  :lol: bloody prime suspect I think


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26612788 - 04/19/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
By the way, speaking of crazy new things that just pop up out of nowhere overnight and suddenly lead to groups of people destroying shit, here's something interesting someone noticed a few hours back:

"Operation Gridlock Los Angeles"
"Operation Gridlock Tennessee"
"Pennsylvanians Against Excessive Quarantine"
"Minnesotans Against Excessive Quarantine"

Why do these groups have the exact same description?

Let's not stop there.

"Pennsylvania Firearms Association"
"Minnesota Gun Rights"

- both with the exact same layout.

Both of these domains are registered with the same registrar and were registered on the exact same day at the same time.

So, a bunch of different groups all pop up on different websites, using the exact same format, layout, and text, claiming to be "grassroots" and "local", except all the domains are registered from one place in Florida.




Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I simply asked if you think it's ok if Russians start a conversation about 5G or not?



Of course it's okay. I wonder why they're doing it from behind proxies?

Do you suddenly think it's wrong for Russians to start discussions by VPN-ing into Florida networks, pretending to be US citizens, and, well, "discussing"?

If you read the links I provided, that is what they did.



I agree, it certainly sounds like the same person or group set up all these websites.

How did you conclude it was a Russian person or group, and that Russians did the same for the 5G discussions?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Can't prove it was Russian trolls. Just some network from Florida that seems to be organizing groups called "Minnesotans against excessive quarantine". I'm sure they're just minnesotans visiting Disney World.

Just a discussion. Perfectly okay, right?



I can think of many other possibilities besides Russians and "minnesotans visiting Disney World".

Seriously, how did you conclude it was a Russian person or group, and that Russians did the same for the 5G discussions?


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/19/20 11:48 AM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26612910 - 04/19/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Can't prove it was Russian trolls. Just some network from Florida that seems to be organizing groups called "Minnesotans against excessive quarantine". I'm sure they're just minnesotans visiting Disney World.

Just a discussion. Perfectly okay, right?



I can think of many other possibilities besides Russians and "minnesotans visiting Disney World".

Seriously, how did you conclude it was a Russian person or group, and that Russians did the same for the 5G discussions?




I explicitly stated, in the quote that you quoted, that I cannot prove that it was Russian trolls. However, as I also stated, and confirmed in one of my links (not the NYT link), Russian troll farms did VPN into Florida networks for their efforts previously.

Maybe it was Nigerian Princes, that decided they needed to step their game up. They just happened to have copied the Russian playbook perfectly, and used the exact same methods and the exact same infrastructure. I guess if it works the first time, learn from the best.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26613278 - 04/19/20 04:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I explicitly stated, in the quote that you quoted, that I cannot prove that it was Russian trolls. However, as I also stated, and confirmed in one of my links (not the NYT link), Russian troll farms did VPN into Florida networks for their efforts previously.

Maybe it was Nigerian Princes, that decided they needed to step their game up. They just happened to have copied the Russian playbook perfectly, and used the exact same methods and the exact same infrastructure. I guess if it works the first time, learn from the best.



So a Russian troll farm was found to have VPN'd into the Florida networks, therefore, anyone VPNing into the Florida networks is probably Russian?  Or did I misunderstand the logic here?

And I still haven't seen the connection between people against quarantine and the 5G safety discussions (because only Russians would be against quarantine, amiright?)


--------------------
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26613908 - 04/19/20 09:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Good, do your job Congress.


--------------------
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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26613910 - 04/19/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Hahahahhahahahahahahhahahah "bbbbbut Russia bad!  Orange man badder!!!"

TRUMP derangement syndrome is real.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner]
    #26613923 - 04/19/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

TDS is out of control.  You should see the posts from my Facebook friends (I live in California).  :smirk:

PS - I don't like Trump.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26614464 - 04/20/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Good, do your job Congress.




You mean like when Obama nominated a Supreme Court Justice?


--------------------
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26614480 - 04/20/20 06:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I dont like trump either but i vote for him happily.  I never met him, how can you like or dislike someone and never meet that person? 

I think he's doing a good job though.  The guy has had the entire fake news media slam him for 4 years.

Anyway, TDS is real in nyc too.  I wear my MAGA hat to work in flatiron district in Manhattan and many people sperg out on the street cursing at me.  Just as many high five me and smile though.  Im a big guy so not worried, its the high school kids who roam in packs im scared of.  Theyll stab u for some paper towel.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26614482 - 04/20/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Whatabout...
I didnt like what happened then and I dont like this now.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner]
    #26615049 - 04/20/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
I dont like trump either but i vote for him happily.  I never met him, how can you like or dislike someone and never meet that person? 

I think he's doing a good job though.




Yeah great job. The US has 40% of the world’s active covid cases. 33% of the total cases and 25% of the deaths. We have 5% of the world’s population.

Unemployment rate is 15-18%. GDP has likely shrunk by over 10%

By what measure is he doing a good job?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods] * 1
    #26615081 - 04/20/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
By what measure is he doing a good job?




Quote:

Taco Chef said:






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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26615844 - 04/20/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ahhahahah what a slew of fake news you just spewed.  I know youre being intentionally misleading but heres a valid response anyway.  US is doing the BEST in response to covid cases per capita, which is the only stat that matters!  Great job banning flights to wuhan, trump!


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26615852 - 04/20/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
US is doing the BEST in response to covid cases per capita,




The best at what?  Not at infection rate. Not at survival rate of those infected. Exactly how is the U.S. doing the best in response to covid?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26615869 - 04/20/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdvegas1? #countries

We are doing better thanmany other countries!  When you take into account how many flights are in and out of the United States compared to these other countries were doing an excellent job! Probably one of the best jobs of all of the countries around the world.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner] * 2
    #26615880 - 04/20/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, we're doing the best insofar as we have the most infected, most deaths, most new cases, most active cases, most serious/critical cases, etc.

We're not the best in any good category, though.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26615923 - 04/20/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Wrong, we are doing great per capita.  Which is the only stat that matters. 2393 per 1million inhabitants.  Thats 23rd best world wide.  Meaning 23 countries are doing worse than the US with many right there with us.  Considering how the US has some of the most flights per any country we are doing fantastic! Why are you intentionally ignoring this fact?  Oh right, TDS.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner]
    #26615964 - 04/20/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

23rd best is great in your book?  Lol, dude...you started this discussion by saying we were doing the best per capita.  Now you're saying 23rd best. 


MAKE AMERICA 23RD PLACE AGAIN!


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil]
    #26616004 - 04/20/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

23rd when youre the #1 country in the world is the best!  Stop hating America brother!  Most flights on the globe and were still behind 23 other countries in infections per capita is amazing.  Trump did a good job with shutting down the flights early!  The best!


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner]
    #26616006 - 04/20/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Wrong, we are doing great per capita.  Which is the only stat that matters. 2393 per 1million inhabitants.  Thats 23rd best world wide.  Meaning 23 countries are doing worse than the US with many right there with us.  Considering how the US has some of the most flights per any country we are doing fantastic! Why are you intentionally ignoring this fact?  Oh right, TDS.



The US doesn’t have anywhere near the most international travel per capita. We’re #106

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Tourist-arrivals/Per-capita

Wtf are you talking about 23rd best?

We are 14th from the bottom out of 210 countries in terms of deaths per capita, even worse in cases per capita. Here’s the ranking, worst death rate (deaths per million) at the top. Our death rate is 6x higher than the the world average. Seriously, how did you manage to get 23rd best? I’m curious the process you used to fabricate that number



Edited by koods (04/20/20 06:33 PM)


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26616030 - 04/20/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you cant click the chart and sort by per capita theres no point discussing it with you.  Lol


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26616031 - 04/20/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thats 23rd best world wide.  Meaning 23 countries are doing worse than the US with many right there with us




23rd best doesn’t mean 23 are doing worse. It means 22 are doing better. Which is not true. We’re 196th best out of 210. Per capita. Which is the only stat that matters.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: meltdowner]
    #26616035 - 04/20/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
If you cant click the chart and sort by per capita theres no point discussing it with you.  Lol



It’s already sorted by deaths per million, highest to lowest.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26616779 - 04/21/20 04:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We're the best, the 23rd best, that's hilarious.

Kim Jong-un is about 7 weeks in front of Trump, he closed North Korea's borders at the end of January.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: koods]
    #26616982 - 04/21/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ooooooh shit

Somebody call an ambulance

Meltdowner just got fact-slapped and I think he’s going into convulsions


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26617042 - 04/21/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Meltdowner is a glorified Trump bot, he doesn't give a shit. He just says whatever feels good at the moment.

Just like his bear daddy.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26617107 - 04/21/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

He's a drive-by shitposting troll in this forum. His sole motivation for posting here is to make librul tears and doesnt care for actual discussion.

There's about an 80% chance he'll report this post. I was wrong; he also comes here to report posts to moderators.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26617643 - 04/21/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
We're the best, the 23rd best, that's hilarious.

Kim Jong-un is about 7 weeks in front of Trump, he closed North Korea's borders at the end of January.



He also shot dead the first person with covid


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #26617671 - 04/21/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You don't know that.  I think someone here is after koods' king of make believe title.

:ohyou:


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26617697 - 04/21/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You don't know that.  I think someone here is after koods' king of make believe title.

:ohyou:



I read it somewhere, but yea, i guess its hard to confirm what does or doesn't happen in nk


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26617712 - 04/21/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know it either, it might be true.  But good to know we're aligned that we can't be sure right now.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26617960 - 04/21/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if Kim Jong Un executed infected people.

It's a decently effective way to prevent pandemics.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26618285 - 04/21/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed.

Snopes said a South Korean paper (Donga) reported a guy "who had been quarantined as a precautionary measure was executed after breaking quarantine to visit a public bath. Donga reports that this person was allegedly sentenced to death because the public’s health was put at risk."

Snopes also marked this claim as “Unproven.”


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26618413 - 04/21/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That's a lot more reasonable than what I expected. I figured they executed the family and torched the house with them in it as soon as someone tested positive, TBH.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26618488 - 04/21/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Kim Jong Un executed infected people.

It's a decently effective way to prevent pandemics.



The first part of your statement is what I came to mine because he is so egotistical and such a tyrant that after Contracting the disease I can't imagine he didn't retaliate out of spite.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 1
    #26618511 - 04/21/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Honestly? I don't think KJU acts out of spite very often. I doubt ego is part of it.

I think he's a modern day Dionysius (of Damocles fame), except with generational baggage. He acts out of necessity for self preservation, and his routine executions are largely due to the fact that he is surrounded by people that are out to get him. Same with his stranglehold on power and the people. He cannot show weakness, because if he does, half the country will revolt, and the first general to get to his troops will take the throne and have KJU executed.

The whole "being worshiped as a living god" bit is likely a form of self protection against this exact thing--it provides him with some protection even as a figurehead.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26621406 - 04/23/20 03:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:nodofunderstanding:

METUS EST PLENUS TYRANNIS  "Fear is plentiful for tyrants"


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26623446 - 04/23/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Honestly? I don't think KJU acts out of spite very often. I doubt ego is part of it.

I think he's a modern day Dionysius (of Damocles fame), except with generational baggage. He acts out of necessity for self preservation, and his routine executions are largely due to the fact that he is surrounded by people that are out to get him. Same with his stranglehold on power and the people. He cannot show weakness, because if he does, half the country will revolt, and the first general to get to his troops will take the throne and have KJU executed.

The whole "being worshiped as a living god" bit is likely a form of self protection against this exact thing--it provides him with some protection even as a figurehead.



So you're saying that he has to kill people and it's Justified because he has no other option? Kill/make death camps or be killed?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26623447 - 04/23/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

By the way he has had many opportunities do except humanitarian Aid and simultaneously look like a hero of North Korea. You think the people that have been starving for Generations are going to have palm trees about where they food came from?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26623451 - 04/23/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

When he kills someone, it needs no justification.  As a god, everything he does is already just.


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 2
    #26623531 - 04/23/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Honestly? I don't think KJU acts out of spite very often. I doubt ego is part of it.

I think he's a modern day Dionysius (of Damocles fame), except with generational baggage. He acts out of necessity for self preservation, and his routine executions are largely due to the fact that he is surrounded by people that are out to get him. Same with his stranglehold on power and the people. He cannot show weakness, because if he does, half the country will revolt, and the first general to get to his troops will take the throne and have KJU executed.

The whole "being worshiped as a living god" bit is likely a form of self protection against this exact thing--it provides him with some protection even as a figurehead.



So you're saying that he has to kill people and it's Justified because he has no other option? Kill/make death camps or be killed?




People seem to get this idea that when I think some dictator made the technically correct decision, that I think that decision is justifiable. MagicMush thinks I worship Xi Jinping because I think he's repeatedly made the right calls. No, I don't, and I wouldn't want to live in China. That being said, Xi and Putin are neck and neck in the race for "most competent leader in the world at this moment" in my book. That's not to say they're good leaders, nor that I would like to live under them. Only that they are the most competent, from the standpoint of consolidating power and piloting their countries forward.

A decision can be both technically correct and morally unjustifiable. If we skip over the moralistic arguments (which is quite necessary in this case, otherwise the entire debate would be "KJU is a fuck" repeated ad nauseum), then KJU's decision to run death camps and rule with an iron fist is correct, in the sense that it (a) maintains his power, (b) keeps him alive, and (c) keeps the country...sort of alive. At the very least not devolved to a complete State of Nature.

It's like Ollivander said about Voldemort's wand in Harry Potter: "Voldemort did great things - terrible, yes, but great."


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Kryptos]
    #26623544 - 04/23/20 10:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You know that Harry Potter is fiction,  right?


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Re: dumpy wants to adjourn congress to appoint his cronies [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26624000 - 04/24/20 06:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So are you.

Doesn't make the quote invalid. Just dumbs it down enough for young adult literature demographics.


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