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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Culture of rage
    #2660310 - 05/10/04 06:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

From popular media such as WWF,Ultimate fighting,K-1 etc to the huge volume of extremely violent video games and the popularity of shows like "Cops". It seems we as a society have adopted anger and violence as a national pastime replacing the spot held by the decidedly non-violent Baseball.From the vitriol spillled onto Blogs like this to guys like Hannity and O'Reilly. The level of pure anger is seemingly on an ever increasing spiral.
We have witnessed how the sanctioned rape and intimidation present in America's prisons has spread into our subject nation. I still am appalled at those who have responded that this behavior is a relative non-issue.It is a MAJOR issue in AMerica And will become our downfall in the middle east.I wonder how many Iraqis are thinking about the old adage regarding the asshole you know right now as the new asshole ride rough shod into town.
How is it a nation of people capable of so many good deeds also sanction so much harm with so little remorse?
What are we so pissed about?
WR:wexican::bong::beer:


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2660331 - 05/10/04 06:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
We have witnessed how the sanctioned rape and intimidation present in America's prisons has spread into our subject nation.




Sanctioned by whom? Since the Geneva Convention and the Standing Orders for all US Armed Forces prevents them from doing such act, it can't be offically condoned. Were it sanctioned, it would be supported by the leaders, which it is not being.
Quote:


How is it a nation of people capable of so many good deeds also sanction so much harm with so little remorse?




What did we sanction with little remorse?
Quote:


What are we so pissed about?




9/11


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2660410 - 05/10/04 07:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Sanctioned by whom? Since the Geneva Convention and the Standing Orders for all US Armed Forces prevents them from doing such act, it can't be offically condoned. Were it sanctioned, it would be supported by the leaders, which it is not being.




I've got a term for you consisting of two words, 'plausible deniability.' If you think that the actions of U.S. personnel in the prisons in Iraq were not performed without the knowledge and (at least) tacit consent of their commanders, I can give you a real good deal on The Brooklyn Bridge. PM me for details, as I have several interested buyers.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2660473 - 05/10/04 07:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sanctioned by whom? Since the Geneva Convention and the Standing Orders for all US Armed Forces prevents them from doing such act, it can't be offically condoned. Were it sanctioned, it would be supported by the leaders, which it is not being.




As in America's prisons there is what is public and what is happenning with full knowlege.

Quote:

What did we sanction with little remorse?
Quote:



The invasion of a country under false pretenses.
The so called"Patriot act"

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What are we so pissed about?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


9/11




And just which of the cultural examples of our fascination with anger and rage is Post 9/11 except perhaps the war?
WR


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2660788 - 05/10/04 08:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'd say you've got a culture of rage when you call people that strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people 'heroes' and 'martyrs'. When Americans start throwing parties and celebrating when mass amounts of people get killed, and dragging chared corpses through the streets, firing AKs into the air, then you have a culture of rage.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Evolving]
    #2660947 - 05/10/04 08:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
I've got a term for you consisting of two words, 'plausible deniability.' If you think that the actions of U.S. personnel in the prisons in Iraq were not performed without the knowledge and (at least) tacit consent of their commanders, I can give you a real good deal on The Brooklyn Bridge. PM me for details, as I have several interested buyers.




Yes, I'll regale you with stories of the little greyish green men that have kidnapped me as well. Simply because a "conspiracy theory" type phrase can be applied doesn't mean that it is proof. The lack of evidence is seen too commonly by the conspiracy people as proof of something else. If you have concrete proof that this was sanctioned by the President, then it is offically sanctioned. If it was not sanctioned by the highest member of the chain of command, then it was an unlawful order that sanctioned it, and no matter where it came from, was not 'sanctioned', as per the rules of warfare.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2660981 - 05/10/04 09:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
As in America's prisons there is what is public and what is happenning with full knowlege.




So now the Geneva convention relates to what governments can and cannot do to the interred citizens of that country? Thats fascinating, could you back this up with some fact please? Or are we just tying all documents that sound nice with our own sense of morality, and hoping that noone will call your bluff? well, I am. I'd like to see sources in the Geneva Convention that deal with a governments role in using prisons in their own nation for non combatants. ( I think I was under the impression that this was the thread dealing with the Geneva Convention, my bad)
Quote:


The invasion of a country under false pretenses.
The so called"Patriot act"




What "we" do you use in the context of "we sanctioned..."? I certainly am not for the Patriot Act. How does the Patriot Act relate to the culture of rage?




And just which of the cultural examples of our fascination with anger and rage is Post 9/11 except perhaps the war?




I was just kidding some. I think that "nine eleven" has become a copout phrase for so many things. Rap music, video games, the TV, who knows?


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2660991 - 05/10/04 09:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I'd say you've got a culture of rage when you call people that strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people 'heroes' and 'martyrs'. When Americans start throwing parties and celebrating when mass amounts of people get killed, and dragging chared corpses through the streets, firing AKs into the air, then you have a culture of rage.




I really like some of your points but you seem to not be able to understand my comments in other threads. It's ok for those nations to behave like that and not be classified as "violent" or filled with "rage", this harsh scrutiny and lack of ability to rationalize actions only applies to the worlds view of America. Remember? you don't judge America and the other nations of the world the same way. America is always wrong.  Thats the last time i'm telling you!

:eek:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2661001 - 05/10/04 09:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'd say you've got a culture of rage when you call people that strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people 'heroes' and 'martyrs'. 




I would view it more desparation than true rage but I do not live there I live in America which is what the post is about not whether other countries are angry or more angry than the US.

Quote:

When Americans start throwing parties and celebrating when mass amounts of people get killed, and dragging chared corpses through the streets, 




Or perhaps photographing acts of degradation with wide smiles and thumbs up.Remember it all happens by degrees.

Quote:

firing AKs into the air, then you have a culture of rage. 




Be in my neighborhood during the fourth of July and New years eve :lol: You'll hear and see ordinance usually found on a live fire facility.
So rather than excuse our anger by showing more angry(with better reason than us for sure)cultures, how about addressing the issues of violent behavior and attitudes in THIS country.
Christ,pointing your finger when your caught out and saying"but johnny did so so and so" is not even an arguement it is a childs attempt at passing the blame from their shoulders
Step back and swing again but that is one strike two more and your out :wink:
WR:wexican::beer::bong:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2661065 - 05/10/04 09:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So now the Geneva convention relates to what governments can and cannot do to the interred citizens of that country? Thats fascinating, could you back this up with some fact please? Or are we just tying all documents that sound nice with our own sense of morality, and hoping that noone will call your bluff? well, I am. I'd like to see sources in the Geneva Convention that deal with a governments role in using prisons in their own nation for non combatants. ( I think I was under the impression that this was the thread dealing with the Geneva Convention, my bad)





This thread is well explained in the begnning and does not deal with the Geneva convention but what is occurring in America.
In America's prisons there is a culture of punishment based on degradationand physical and sexual brutality.This is a fact whether the fox watching the hen house likes it known or not. You obviously have had little experience with graduates of America's penal system.

Quote:

I was just kidding some. I think that "nine eleven" has become a copout phrase for so many things. Rap music, video games, the TV, who knows?




I agree however which of these cultural examples appeared post 9/11 and which were already established forms of violent entertainment.
WR


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2661091 - 05/10/04 09:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Yes, I'll regale you with stories of the little greyish green men that have kidnapped me as well.



Irrelevant.

Quote:

Simply because a "conspiracy theory" type phrase can be applied doesn't mean that it is proof. The lack of evidence is seen too commonly by the conspiracy people as proof of something else.



From the report of Major General Antonio Taguba:

Sgt. Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in his sworn statement as follows: "I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, wing 1A, being made to do various things that I would question morally?. Also the wing belongs to MI, and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse." Sgt. Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said, he stated: "Loosen this guy up for us. Make sure he has a bad night. Make sure he gets the treatment." ? Finally, Sgt. Davis stated: "The MI staffs to my understanding have been giving ? compliments ? like, 'Good job, they're breaking down real fast. They answer every question. They're giving out good information, finally, and keep up the good work.' Stuff like that."

Quote:

If you have concrete proof that this was sanctioned by the President, then it is offically sanctioned.



Hence the term, 'plausible deniability.' Yes, I'm sure that a man who has no reservations launching a war of agression and having bombs dropped on innocent people would never sanction such action on the record. Educate yourself.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2661092 - 05/10/04 09:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What are we so pissed about?




We're subconsciously pissed off because we've been denied the right to evolve as a species using mind expanding drugs.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Dovers - The Third Eye



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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Evolving]
    #2661142 - 05/10/04 09:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
From the report of Major General Antonio Taguba:

Sgt. Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in his sworn statement as follows: "I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, wing 1A, being made to do various things that I would question morally?. Also the wing belongs to MI, and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse." Sgt. Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said, he stated: "Loosen this guy up for us. Make sure he has a bad night. Make sure he gets the treatment." ? Finally, Sgt. Davis stated: "The MI staffs to my understanding have been giving ? compliments ? like, 'Good job, they're breaking down real fast. They answer every question. They're giving out good information, finally, and keep up the good work.' Stuff like that."




If MgGen Whomever isn't the commander in chief and/or the president, he has no power to go against previously signed articles of war and conventional laws. If the order came from a 4-star General, it STILL Woudln't be a lawful order and thus the men in his command would have to disobey it. It isn't offically sanctioned unless it is ordered by the president.
Quote:


Hence the term, 'plausible deniability.'




I see. Where did you bury the bodies of the children you murdered? What, no bodies?! Hah! IT's obvious you killed them, the total lack fo evidence supports it!
Quote:


Yes, I'm sure that a man who has no reservations launching a war of agression and having bombs dropped on innocent people would never sanction such action on the record. Educate yourself.



So what you are saying is that you are using your previous prejudices about this man as "evidence" for your new claims? Nice.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Learyfan]
    #2661178 - 05/10/04 09:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There may be far more to what you say than you know.
I have been working with Dr's Mechoulam and Freid in Israel on a theory that exposure to modern surfactants and excess fats has depleted the natural endocannabinoid balance creating a deficit condition spuring a host of "modern" illnesses.
Dr.Freid postulates this may be feuling the modern Cannabis movement as people self medicate for a deficiency in their own endocannabinoid balance.
But that is for another post. I would like to hear the strident right address my original query on the culture of violence we have fostered in this country and how it is affecting the situation in our occupied territory of Iraq.
WR


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2661199 - 05/10/04 09:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I see. Where did you bury the bodies of the children you murdered? What, no bodies?! Hah! IT's obvious you killed them, the total lack fo evidence supports it!




Back to the original topic please! Also please note your own metaphor filled with loving compassion.Now can you address my statements or will you continue to be distracted by easier questions?
WR


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2661339 - 05/11/04 12:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Back to the original topic please!




Ok. I think that America has a fascination with violence. I think that it stems from our history of conquering this nation. Not in the far past as the European nations had, trading land back and forth. Since America began, we've been one solid nation, ever expanding. It's only been a few hundred years since that all began. We still have that same 'spirit' in our blood, but now it manifests in different ways. We are a gun owning nation and a large amount of firearms means that some will inevitably fall into the wrong hands and lead to violence.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2661440 - 05/11/04 01:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
I see. Where did you bury the bodies of the children you murdered? What, no bodies?! Hah! IT's obvious you killed them, the total lack fo evidence supports it!



This has nothing to do with the topic.

Quote:

So what you are saying is that you are using your previous prejudices about this man as "evidence" for your new claims? Nice.



No I am not saying that. Here is what I originally said, "If you think that the actions of U.S. personnel in the prisons in Iraq were not performed without the knowledge and (at least) tacit consent of their commanders, I can give you a real good deal on The Brooklyn Bridge." For your convenience, here is a definition of the word, 'tacit.' I never said the President gave an explicit order, nor did I say the president gave an implicit order. However, I would not put it past the man who is a proven liar and has led his nation to war on pretenses of which NOT A SINGLE ONE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE TRUE, to give tacit approval via such wording as 'using any means at your disposal' (for instance). His underling, Reichsf?hrer Rumsfled, would then be inspired to 'take the ball and run with it' giving orders of similar scope to his underlings. Is this concept that far beyond your comprehension?

If our president had any real balls, he would take responsibilty for the actions of those under his command on his watch. Instead of the sign "The Buck Stops Here" as Harry Truman kept on his desk, GWB is of the character that the sign on his desk should read, "It's Not My Fault, I Just Work Here."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2661967 - 05/11/04 06:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'd say you've got a culture of rage when you call people that strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people 'heroes' and 'martyrs'. When Americans start throwing parties and celebrating when mass amounts of people get killed, and dragging chared corpses through the streets, firing AKs into the air, then you have a culture of rage.




How do the actions of other societies excuse our own actions anyway?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: whiterasta]
    #2662240 - 05/11/04 10:03 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I play Unreal, a game that involves runing around and shooting your opponents with fantastic weapons until you're shot, whe you come back to life and start again. It's a fun game, and being pissed off doesn't help you play it - you just have to guess what you're opponent's going to do. I'm not saying that listening to rap music and playing violent video games doesn't affect our culture, but I haven't observed any increased tendency toward violence in myself or my close freinds.

Were there human rights violations in Vietnam?

I think the problem here is that soldiers were encouraged by military inteligence to degrade and possibly even torture Iraqi prisoners so that they would be better subjects for interrogation: they were not treated as POWs or as subjects of the American legal system. The same is true of prisoners at Guantanamo (not being given the rights of POWs or citizens), though there hasn't been evidence of excessive violations there that I remember seeing.
There needs to be public (such as red cross) oversight of both military and normal prisons. I don't think our "culture of violence" is to blame for abuses that occured.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: Culture of rage [Re: phi1618]
    #2662261 - 05/11/04 10:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"I play Unreal, a game that involves runing around and shooting your opponents with fantastic weapons until you're shot, whe you come back to life and start again. It's a fun game, and being pissed off doesn't help you play it..."

Unreal kicks ass.I can play it for hours and hours.

Personally I am involved in highly violent activities such as full contact tae kwon do and breaking as well as very violent video games and so called angry music and I love to see violence like UFC and other things.However this is good clean violence where no one gets seriously hurt and the object isnt to maim or kill the other person.All animal species have had violence among them since time began including humans.We all have a need for violence.We're hard wired to be violent and enjoy violence.However senseless violence like crime was never intended.Violence was implented as a tool.Throughout man's history violence has reigned.In war to defend one's tribe,among ones own tribes to determine things and settle things or even to become a man through violent rites of passage or even become chief by violent acts.Violence has its place and purpose.I however think senseless violence like murder and such isnt the violence mankind needs or was intended for...

I dont feel violence and anger go hand in hand although violence can certainly lead to anger and anger can certainly lead to violence but violence without anger or intent to seriously harm/kill is very needed and good clean recreation.Its when we let anger dictate our violence that problems occur.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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