|
specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26602099 - 04/15/20 05:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The population isnt important. We live as individuals. How do you decide 'need'? Who is going to do societal jobs?

Communism, reclaming land since 1960
--------------------
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26602112 - 04/15/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: What incentive would there be for an investor or whoever to purchase the enterprise if he receives no control or any part of the surplus?
I made a distinction between collectively controlled production units (ccpu) and private ventures. The ccpu's investment comes from the mutualization of both gains and losses. It's backed up by the effort of the whole to attain the maximum level of satisfaction regarding their basic needs. That's ccpu's alpha and omega. One other thing is the existence of private initiative and ventures. Of course this begs many other questions along the process. Mostly regarding accumulation of capital/credits and property rights. There are some anarchist theories which offer some clues. I would say that the idea of a single investor, patron or enterprise would be replaced by the idea of collective investors instead (a true democratization of private initiative). And when you say "investment", it isn't always money what you need to invest to make things happen. As long as you have access to resources and technology, you mostly need knowledge, ingenuity and a collective sense of mission. Remember, you would be living in a society where all basic needs are taken care of.
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Can you even have ownership without being a part of the workforce in a given enterprise?
Not in private ventures but yes for ccpu's. They would be managed by their workers but belonging to everyone.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: There are communists on the left, and at worst anarchists on the right. Alot of leftist seem to think themselves anarchists, but you dont go left and somehownhit freedom. You didn't go toward freedom and somehow hit totalitarianism.
That's definitely not a true definition of anarchism as a whole. You got it all wrong. So, you deny the existence of anarcho-socialism, which include, anarcho-collectivist, anarcho-communists, anarcho-syndicalists and mutualists ? Really ?!
So, anarchism for you is this extreme idea of individualism where you can do whatever the fuck you want ? That's what you call "freedom" ? The one without any responsibility nor applied knowledge ?
I just know a couple of such anarchist flavors: anarcho-individualists and anarcho-capitalist. The former are mostly egocentric libertarians. I don't blame them as I used to be one of them until I realized I don't want to live in a fucking cave, alone, for the rest of my life. The later barely make it as something anarchist. The basic anarchist theory rejects 3 types of authority: religious, political and ECONOMIC. Money, capital is a form of authority in itself. Thus how much sense it makes to be an anarcho-capitalist ? Beats me...
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
|
specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26602145 - 04/15/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Those ideas are all rediculous. Stop listening to ramshackle glory so much. Its good music, but Pat probably isnt the best person to emulate
--------------------
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: The population isnt important. We live as individuals.
Sure. Then go live in a cave and tell me for how long your "individual" will last. On the other hand, and needless to say, you are a part of the population. So you are population and individual at the same time. Philosophy 101 or is it philosophy too "communist" for you ?
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: How do you decide 'need'?
You don't decide need. Needs are self-evident. What do you use to take a dump ? And to clean you ass ? I bet your mind has already responded what needs are.
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Who is going to do societal jobs?
Someone that wants more of life than just being at home getting fat. Many, I think. Won't you ? Why not, if society gives you the basics of life ? Surely, there would be some kind of moral regarding some behaviors. As it always has existed.
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:

Communism, reclaming land since 1960
Ok. But I'm not communist ... I'm a postmodernist with social and political worries reclaiming the best from anarcho-collectivism and mutualism as some of the solutions. Communism is as decrepit as capitalism.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
Edited by MAIA (04/15/20 06:11 AM)
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Those ideas are all rediculous. Stop listening to ramshackle glory so much. Its good music, but Pat probably isnt the best person to emulate
Do you want me to do the silly dance as well ? :p
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
|
specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26602159 - 04/15/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Living where others live doesnt make you less of an individual. None of whatyou are saying wasnt taken into account when I said that
How are needs 'self evident '? What I see as a need, you may not. I like weed. Its a need to me. I shower. TP is not necesarry. Should be illegal
Tpi cant even respond to that last post. I assume you mean people are going to be motivated by some internal motivation to go and not get paid? Its really something i cant translate
Quote:
Ok. But I'm not communist ... I'm a post-modernist with social and political worries reclaiming the best from anarcho-collectivism and mutualism as some of the solutions. Communism is as decrepit as capitalism.
Thats called being a communist. You can say they are decrepit, but nothing you have is new. no matter how many lables you add to your ideology, it wont be origional. Either individuals make choices, or beurocracues. There isnt a third consciousness to ask when humans show our fallibilityQuote:
MAIA said:
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Those ideas are all rediculous. Stop listening to ramshackle glory so much. Its good music, but Pat probably isnt the best person to emulate
Do you want me to do the silly dance as well ? :p
Of course
Gonna dissapear a while. Dont want to overpost and be up in every conversation
--------------------
Edited by specialpeopleclub (04/15/20 06:13 AM)
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Living where others live doesnt make you less of an individual.
Not less, not more. That's not the issue. The notion of individuality is a product of communal living, of society. Otherwise, if you are alone in a an island such notion wouldn't make any sense because you would be the sole expression of it. It would be meaningless, or only meaningful to yourself. In the end, who would fucking care ?
I realize it can be hard to conceptualize this notion but the expression of the individual only makes any sense if it is experienced by others. It's a shared experience of the self. It comes to mind some classics that make a similar approach. Name the allegory of the cave. Again, philosophy 101.
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: How are needs 'self evident '? What I see as a need, you may not. I like weed. Its a need to me. I shower. TP is not necesarry. Should be illegal
I'm baffled for such profound notion ... 3 basic needs. They are repeated several times in my interventions. Care to read or should I copy&paste them once again ? Want weed ? Plant weed, trade it for
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Tpi cant even respond to that last post. I assume you mean people are going to be motivated by some internal motivation to go and not get paid? Its really something i cant translate
Paid, credited. Yes, of course. Is this a straight answer enough ? Though you could extrapolate such notion from what I wrote. Guess I was wrong ...
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Thats called being a communist. You can say they are decrepit, but nothing you have is new. no matter how many lables you add to your ideology, it wont be origional. Either individuals make choices, or beurocracues. There isnt a third consciousness to ask when humans show our fallibility
Those pesky commies that eat little children at lunch ... choices or beurocracies. The evident choice in the Platonic cave of shadows. Oh, and I'm so fucking worried about originality I can't wait to write a book and earn some green...
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:
"Do you want me to do the silly dance as well ? :p"
Of course
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Gonna dissapear a while. Dont want to overpost and be up in every conversation
Edited by MAIA (04/15/20 08:55 AM)
|
specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26602391 - 04/15/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
None of that is the point. The farther from the i dividual and their immediate group, hopefully a family with a mother and father, the less important they are ro the individual. You cant expecr people to empathize non locally
In what market would I buy weed?
Who is making these trades or giving credit? Thats capitalism.
--------------------
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
|
Capitalism is not about individualism. Capitalism is about people being able to profit off of business without having to work at those businesses (or work period). Also, under capitalism, we have the wonderful benefit of corporate bureaucracies. If you have dealt with the healthcare industry you have dealt with probably one of the most insidious bureaucracies that this modern age has created. In some cases people pay upwards of 10k a year to ward off the fear of going bankrupt from unforeseen malaise. Even so your claim is processed through a network of agents and lawyers to deny, discredit and otherwise fuck you in your hour of need. Also the Aral Sea is a good model for what you get when you get massive ideologically driven pushes to utilize resources unsustainably, but this is not unique to the communist regime in the USSR. In the US we have allowed strip mining, open pit mining, mountaintop removal, lifted regulations on pollution controls and FAR more all in the name of allowing a few already wealthy people and their wealthy investors to get filthy rich without consequence. Hell, we lower their taxes for the trouble of stripping us of what should be held in common. So the idea that the spooky red menace is the only beast to cause ecological disaster is absolutely laughable (sorry to say). We can create a better system of deciding what should happen with natural resources that involves the people (democratically deciding if we should mine an area/dam a river or put in a field of solar cells) and in my opinion we need to in order to prevent total ecological and societal collapse. Yeah people make individual choices (good and bad) that create the world around them, but they make those choices based on input they got from their surrounding society: Create a less pathological, earth-destroying society and you create an individual who is less pathological and less likely to destroy the earth. That's karma. I 100% think that people are and should be expected to care about people besides their extended family. Everyone's health and happiness ultimately impacts us personally.
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
|
The mistakes the US made ecologicslly are mostly corrected. We have a well sustained ecosupystem by world standards. The closest mistake would be the Salton Sea.
You cwn pick and choose events, but Russia is cocered in death thst we simply arent
Capitalism in its purest form is negotiation. Younare extrapolating beyond simple defenition. Its like if I described every problem of China instead of saying its 'centralized economics'
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 5 months, 8 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:

Communism, reclaming land since 1960
What does that photo of the Aral Sea have to do with communism reclaiming land? The Soviet Union used the water from the rivers that filled that lake for irrigation.
Los Angeles did the same to the streams flowing into Mono Lake in the early 1900's. There are countless other examples.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 5 months, 8 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: The mistakes the US made ecologicslly are mostly corrected. We have a well sustained ecosupystem by world standards.
The reason for this is because of Governmental regulations.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
|
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: The mistakes the US made ecologicslly are mostly corrected. We have a well sustained ecosupystem by world standards. The closest mistake would be the Salton Sea. You cwn pick and choose events, but Russia is cocered in death thst we simply arent
I'm not picking and choosing events. I'm saying there's nothing inherent in the model of socialist federations that "causes" environmental destruction. Yeah, draining the Aral sea was a Grade A shit move on the part of the soviet union's party leadership, but in the US we play different cat and mouse games to allow people to pollute. Consider the Exxon-Valdez disaster in Cordova AK: They paid what, a couple hundred thousand dollars and got off scott free because they had people on staff that they could pay to speak VERY GOOD Legalese (Lawyers) and weasel their way out of it. I was on a tour of the EPA hedquarters in Durham and one of the scientists there gave a pretty good run-down of how companies basically pump novel Perfluorocarbons into their waste streams because they aren't regulated. It's kinda like the research chemical game only this has direct implications for our groundwater. Pollution has not been solved in America. Hell, we aren't even trying that hard to stop it.
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Capitalism in its purest form is negotiation. Younare extrapolating beyond simple defenition. Its like if I described every problem of China instead of saying its 'centralized economics'
I don't agree, and to be honest I don't understand what you mean in that third sentence but I concede that my definition of Capitalism isn't super orthodox. Let's define capitalism as others have the one I'm using is fairly Marxist so I'll revise it so now: Capitalism is the ownership of business and industry by private individuals (found that on google). It doesn't inherently mean that industry doesn't have rules, and doesn't have any sort of regulatory agencies (a state or other corporations) because Keynesian economics (as I understand) follows a mostly capitalist framework but with a LOT more rules and controls than we have now. But it's incorrect to say that capitalism simply boils down to negotiation of the exchange of goods and services because you can negotiate from a socialist angle as well. For instance, in a capitalist system, Exxon-Mobil negotiates with the regulatory agencies to secure drilling permits, and is not directly accountable to the people for anything that happens. Their interactions are mediated by the state, who is stacked with governors and judges and attorney generals that will rule in Exxon's favor unless the people can rustle up some REALLY good legal jiu-jutsu to say "no, you may not drill". However, none of that is really inherent to "Capitalism sensu-lato". In an oligarchy or anarcho-capitalist society, you have no negotiation and whoever pays the crew who gets there the fastest gets the oil. In a far more regulated capitalist system, judges are immediately recall-able if they are clearly only finding in the defense of corporations, and/orthe people can directly vote to not let the company drill. If you were to take that last scenario of a more regulated capitalist system but put a socialist bend on it, the people have direct authority over the company and can say "you know what, we're not drilling here. We voted and have determined it's not a good idea.". It's still negotiation but your socioeconomic mode dictates who the negotiation is done with/through and who has power.
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
|
Sorry, I meant in oligarchies or anarcho-capitalist systems the only negotiation you have is who you can get to do the work and how quick they can do it, but there's no real state to mediate it.
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,361
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 32 minutes, 2 seconds
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26605575 - 04/16/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:

Communism, reclaming land since 1960
What does that photo of the Aral Sea have to do with communism reclaiming land? The Soviet Union used the water from the rivers that filled that lake for irrigation.
Los Angeles did the same to the streams flowing into Mono Lake in the early 1900's. There are countless other examples. 
I'm glad somebody cleared that up because I didn't know WTF it was supposed to be.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
|