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Qave
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26593555 - 04/11/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Kryptos said: I don't think it matters, and I reject the premise that capitalism is what gave us a bunch of good things.
That's a position that you're going to have to back up, buddy. Capitalism gave us a bunch of good things the same way the steam engine gave us good things. Just because it's not the be-all solution to every problem, and possibly outdated, doesn't mean it didn't accomplish a lot. The Wealth of Nations was basically Adam Smith trying to figure out how humanity revolutionized the textile industry from a thousand years of roughspun tunics to almost everyone being able to afford multiple well-made garments in a generation. Capitalism is a tool, like dynamite, and just like dynamite it's great at doing one thing but makes a big mess if you jam it into a school.
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Kryptos said:People love to talk about how great capitalism is, but why is it that capitalism was only great after WWII?
Capitalism did great things before WWII. As I pointed out with Adam Smith above, the single greatest real expansion of wealth probably happened in the 18th and 19th centuries, when major innovations in mechanization, metallurgy, travel, and communication made modern life unrecognizable compared to the slight changes made over three millennia since Egypt. And it's not like the capability to make these advances didn't exist beforehand. The Roman economy had banks, loans, trade, intricate tax systems, social programs, concrete. They even invented the first steam engine about two thousand years ago. Yet over that entire time they barely managed to invent pants. Why? Because the Roman economy measured wealth in land and slaves to work that land. If a patrician wanted to increase the productivity of his land, he just got more slaves. And if you want more land, you raise an army and grab it from someone else, or buy it out from under your neighbor after he goes bankrupt from being in the army for ten years and not being able to work his land.
The US economic boom post-WWII to capitalism isn't that capitalism suddenly started working when it hadn't ever worked before, it's that society had changed. The Americas were fresh with land and natural resources, had economies untouched by either world war, and the entire planet was in need of consumer goods to replace everything they had lost with a global distribution system completely capable of shipping those goods from the US to everywhere else on the planet. The USA arguably became the world's first ever hyperpower. The amount of real wealth produced in those few decades was staggering, and with that amount of wealth and leisure time people finally had the ability to advocate for themselves, join unions, and benefit from that wealth (strangely mirroring predictions by a weirdo German guy a hundred years prior...).
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Kryptos
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Qave]
#26593586 - 04/11/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Qave said: The US economic boom post-WWII to capitalism isn't that capitalism suddenly started working when it hadn't ever worked before, it's that society had changed. The Americas were fresh with land and natural resources, had economies untouched by either world war, and the entire planet was in need of consumer goods to replace everything they had lost with a global distribution system completely capable of shipping those goods from the US to everywhere else on the planet.
This is my point. Literally any economic system would have succeeded, because the US had the recipe for success coming out of WWII. We could have been socialist, capitalist, corporatist, or fuckin' druids.
Capitalism had nothing to do with it.
And your history lesson proves the same. Capitalism isn't what brings good things, having the right combinations of land, resources, and population brings good things. Capitalism just happens to be the economic system du jour.
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Qave
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26593714 - 04/11/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Kryptos said: And your history lesson proves the same. Capitalism isn't what brings good things, having the right combinations of land, resources, and population brings good things. Capitalism just happens to be the economic system du jour.
My history lesson showed exactly the opposite of that. The Romans had the right combination of land, resources, and population for two thousand years and the greatest technological innovation of their age was roads. And it's not for lack of ingenuity. At the beginning of the first Punic war Rome was almost entirely land-based, with a few dinky ships that could only sail along the coast, while Carthage was the greatest naval power in the Mediterranean. But then they got so fucking angry at Carthage that they went from zero navy to all the navy, crossed the Mediterranean, and stomped Carthage into the ground. After that, charged by their newfound technical prowess they... conquered Egypt and used their new Navy to protect their grain barges.
Similarly, China was one of the largest empires on the planet for most of recorded history. We know this because a big chunk of that recorded history was written and stored in China. They, too, had the land, resources, and population to do great things. We know this because they invented gunpowder a thousand years ago. But then they... used it to make fireworks. 200 years later they were invaded by the Mongols. Having been shown the folly of a weak military, China... still just used gunpowder for fireworks for another 500 years.
The Opium Wars occurred because the British sailed in and said "We are desperate for silk, tea, and porcelain, we will give you the industrial revolution and leapfrog your technology 500 years, just please give us silk. I'm wearing fucking wool undies, here, I'm desperate." and the Chinese nobility said "the fuck we want with your 'industrial revolution'? We own China. lol guess we can take your silver, tho". One empty silver vault later and the Dutch East India Company becomes a state-sponsored drug dealer just to feed consumer demand for silk, tea, and teacups back home. One utterly, utterly, embarrassing war later and China ends up paying the DEIC compensation for all the illegal Opium they destroyed, ceding Hong Kong to England in perpetuity, and opening six trade ports.
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Kryptos
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Qave]
#26593817 - 04/11/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Rome was a largely capitalist society, as was China.
Both empires collapsed for the same reason the US is currently falling apart: regulatory capture. Individuals became more powerful than the state, and the state collapsed under the strain.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26595305 - 04/12/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe someone can explain this to me. Since the capitalist only cares about their bottom line and is evidently willing to do anything to maximize their profit including the seduction of a whoring state, outsourcing etc. then would a worker co-op not solve both the problem of a corrupt and wasteful state and the elitism of the capitalist? If the workers as a whole co-own the workplace and democratically steer its operations and distributions then wouldn’t this drastically reduce a lot of the inequality and outsourcing issues? The regulatory functions of the state would be needed less and less.
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Kryptos
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26595802 - 04/12/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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What you're basically describing is a union, though I think there's nothing wrong with a full co-op in which workers share in the profits of their labor. If we take your idea to the full extreme we end up in the middle of a proletariat revolution.
Unions need the protection of the state to develop. Right now, in many places if you say the word "union" you're fired immediately, and there's always someone to replace you. The collapse of the unions was allowed to occur by the workers that relied on them through the popularization of corrupt examples (teamsters), as well as the idea that people shouldn't have to "pay to work" as unions are usually funded through a portion of the worker's paycheck (a paycheck which is severely increased by the bargaining power of the union, but people rarely think two steps ahead).
Without protections, and even with robust unions, there is nothing stopping a company from hiring scabs. One of my first job applications out of college was a temporary position as a scab. I would have gotten paid nearly 60$ an hour, as well as having a fully paid hotel room, for a few weeks. The next best was offering me 16$ an hour, and I had loans to pay. Sadly, I didn't get the job. Strike ended too quickly.
The system is currently set up where the workers are fighting each other, while the owners collect the profits. This is not conducive to unions, because workers need to work together for a union to form.
An especially ironic example is that some unions are currently against M4A. Why? Because one of the only remaining selling points of joining those unions is medical insurance. A weak union can't do much.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26595977 - 04/12/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have nothing against unions per se, but I don’t think that’s what I’m getting at. A union is a bargaining collective of employees, or something like that. How about dissolving the distinction between employer/employee literally making the working class and the owning class the same thing. Idk if “worker co-op” is the right term but I think you see what I’m getting at.
This way the workers are the ones democratically steering the operations as opposed to a board of directors appointed by some rich dudes sitting behind computer screens. I’m sure an effective union could make better working conditions but there’s still that exploitative relationship.
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Kryptos
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26595998 - 04/12/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Shit man, welcome to the proletariat revolution then. Let us join together and seize the means of production.
Marx and Lenin should have you covered when it comes to ideology.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26596006 - 04/12/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alright right on
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specialpeopleclub


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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26596513 - 04/12/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The question itself is idiotic. There isnt another viable option.
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MAIA
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow]
#26599830 - 04/14/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The straight answer would be no. Capitalism has, in fact, served Humanity objectives to a point. The real problem is how big can it grow and how far can it go into the economy without becoming detrimental to that economy. The issue here it's the scale of it and how you can adjust the system as it grows. Globalization exposed several fragilities of this system. I can enumerate a few like the role of global finance and its absurdities, the creation of worldwide monopolies or the heavy and continuous devaluation of currency, much exacerbated by demographic growth and redistribution of wealth.
Now, on the other side of the scale coin. I really don't think the "small" capitalism, based on trading goods for capital is "bad". In fact, as anarcho-collectivist I do believe in mutualism and in the existence of labor credits which is very similar to a currency based society. Nevertheless, such society would envision a planed economy, at least on a macro level, that would exist to take care of human needs. Something contrary to the capitalist free market which exists to acquire profit. "Human needs" is something capitalism wasn't created for. That's why you can have a surplus of toilets made of gold and, at the same, lack of essential goods for the population. A simple example in our now everyday reality: where are the masks when you need them if there's plenty money to buy them ? They should arrive ... somehow ... and mostly when the harm - of not having those in time - is already done.
Wrapping it up: Global capitalism is a non-rational system when it comes to managing resources on a global level. In fact, it exploits them just for the sake of profit in a very linear way. For such exploitation, and consequent profit, it needs the binomial consumer/worker unit to exist. That's why there's the exaltation of the labor market and the intrinsic resistance to automated production units to evolve, multiply and assume a decisive role in our future. People are afraid to loose their jobs to the machines but the machines are supposed to liberate us from work. How can you solve this contradiction ? Should we keep a labor market and forget about automation, keeping us eternally where we are. Or should we have the courage to change the system and embrace technology as a decisive factor of evolution ?
There are some theories about the subject but sure and firstly, an open mind is needed to accept the contradictions of the current system. I try to imagine a heavily automatized first and second sectors of economy. This would free humans to contribute, mostly, in the third sector. Which, by its intellectual oriented nature would funnel human activity to create new processes and technology to be applied in the first and second sectors. In the process, many professions would tend to disappear but new ones would be available. As it has always been. The idea is to have production units - what we call now companies, enterprises - that can assure the basics for the population - food, shelter and health - through the means of automation to, consequently, empower the people and thus project Human abilities and ingenuity into our reality.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
Edited by MAIA (04/14/20 08:49 AM)
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MAIA
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specialpeopleclub said: The question itself is idiotic. There isnt another viable option.
Your answer is idiotic. Sounds like XIII century John Doe speaking about feudalism. If there wasn't viable options for any actual system, historically, we shouldn't be here. Economical systems superseded each other and that's the real viable option. No system can stagnate for an indeterminate amount of time without dooming itself to destruction. Either evolves or revolves to something else the same way reality is intrinsically mutable and emergent.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26600011 - 04/14/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great posts.....awesome response about capitalism and econ in general. I wonder if the production units(focused on human needs)could coexist alongside a capitalist system.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (04/14/20 10:07 AM)
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MAIA
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26600161 - 04/14/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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SirTripAlot said: Great posts.....awesome response about capitalism and econ in general. I wonder if the production units(focused on human needs)could coexist alongside a capitalist system.
If there are private companies overlapping the same products or services of those production units (communally owned with centralized management), there would be competition and it would be harder for capitalist companies to compete but alas, that's the same with all natural and many created monopolies in the capitalist system. As long as the products and services created by private companies have an added value, they will be acquired. So I see no problem. In fact, regarding the reality I portrayed, I believe this scenario should be encouraged in the tertiary sector. I mean, if you can manage to obviate all the 3 basic needs - food, shelter and health - you would only need to work for the rest, which is still much for someone to have a comfortable life. So, there's incentive to be a part of the productive structure and contribute. That would be the point when the "labor market" starts making no sense and you start becoming a collaborator with deserved credits. That would free workers to choose how they contribute.
But for this to happen, currency or credits or whatever you use to trade should be backed up by something. One transitory way to achieve this would be creating a dual currency system where production units products and services would be valued by the added value they bring to society instead of just supply and demand.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
Edited by MAIA (04/14/20 11:11 AM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA]
#26600259 - 04/14/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Starting to get past my paygrade, but if these (public) production units faced competition from traditional corporations, the disparity and rift would manifest in some way. Maybe there could be different regulatory capacities for things on the macro/ microeconomic level.....the learning curve would be brutal.
Or are you suggesting that these production units are exclusive for certain goods and services?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26600297 - 04/14/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sounds a bit like my people box idea...
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26600589 - 04/14/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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MAIA said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Great posts.....awesome response about capitalism and econ in general. I wonder if the production units(focused on human needs)could coexist alongside a capitalist system.
If there are private companies overlapping the same products or services of those production units (communally owned with centralized management), there would be competition and it would be harder for capitalist companies to compete but alas, that's the same with all natural and many created monopolies in the capitalist system. As long as the products and services created by private companies have an added value, they will be acquired. So I see no problem.
Under a worker controlled enterprise there would be a central tenant that control of the enterprise would rest solely with the workers democratically which would include the operation and distributions of its surplus. What incentive would there be for an investor or whoever to purchase the enterprise if he receives no control or any part of the surplus? Can you even have ownership without being a part of the workforce in a given enterprise?
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specialpeopleclub


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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26601977 - 04/15/20 02:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Capitalism is about individuals managing a their resources. A centralized economy doesnt grow. China tried that, then capitulated in certain areas like Macao, Hong Kong, Tianjin, Shenzhen, Shanghai. It still isnt enough,which. China is in among the woest economic positions. I dobt see any real third prong in politics. There are communists on the left, and at worst anarchists on the right. Alot of leftist seem to think themselves anarchists, but you dont go left and somehownhit freedom. You didn't go toward freedom and somehow hit totalitarianism.
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MAIA
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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26602076 - 04/15/20 04:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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SirTripAlot said: Or are you suggesting that these production units are exclusive for certain goods and services?
Yes, only for certain goods and services. Mainly those which purpose is to attain universal production of food, shelter and health. It might be possible to extend to other sectors depending on the population needs. Keyword is "need" as opposed to "profit". Profit might be many things. One of them is being a byproduct of the production process when goods are acquired. Capitalism sees it as the alpha and omega but it deems the whole economy to become an irrational and unsustainable system. As it is now. Even more when it comes to the well-being of the population as a whole. If you remove profit from the equation in the products and goods destined to supply the 3 basic needs, then the resources and the productive process could be managed much more rationally, increasing sustainability.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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MadMuncher


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Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: MAIA] 1
#26602091 - 04/15/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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