Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds - Original Sensible Seeds
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblewolfiewolfie
Just wingin' it.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 2,177
Loc: Australia Flag
Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique.
    #26568497 - 03/31/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System, or 'CLIPS', is an idea I have been playing with for a few weeks now and while it seems to make sense to me, I am interested in some non-biased criticism to keep me in check (and point out the many things I've missed). I'll do my best to explain.

Basics.
To put it simply, it is a thruster based propulsion system that uses water and electrolysis to produce hydrogen and oxygen gas which are combusted and used as fuel to generate thrust. The emissions or by-product of this reaction is water, which is collected and fed back into the system to be used all over again. The electricity for the electrolysis is obtained, at least partially, from;

1.The heat generated from the combustion is converted into electricity through thermoelectric panels.
2. The photons/light given off is captured through solar panels.
3. Turbines placed in the high pressure water (steam) return circuit.

Picture time =D



Here you can see the process from water to fuel to thrust.

Now, when it comes to capturing all of our h20 emissions, I initially pictured a sort of
huge closed cylinder; the thruster would be inaide at one end, and the water collected at the other end. Then I remembered one of Newton's laws (I think), which as I understand, the force of the particles hitting the other end of the cylinder would essentially push the spacecraft backwards, cancelling out the thrust generated.

Then I wondered, what if you could 'direct' those particles on a 180° curve so when they do hit some sort of collection chamber, they are pushing the spacecraft in the right direction, adding to the propulsion instead of counteracting it.







Unlimited fuel? Or at least enabling very long voyages without needing to bring vast amounts of conventional fuel.

I'll assume by this point I've either lost you or you already have questions, so I'll leave it here for now.

:rocket:


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: wolfiewolfie] * 2
    #26568944 - 03/31/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

rocketry is basic Newtonian physics about applying a force to an object and getting an equal and opposite reaction.

You are proposing that the system close up so that the output of the rocket can be collected and the products hydrolyzed back into rocket fuel, but to collect the rocket output products effectively the system becomes closed.

When a closed system has a rocket inside of it, i.e. there is no separation between rocket and field, then the internal force will not act upon an outside field and the rocket will go nowhere though the outflow will become redirected to the inflow after processing.

the closed loop will slow down to the degree that energy is dissipated in heat. (faster if there is no reclamation of heat to create hydrolyzing energy to the products of combustion)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26570039 - 03/31/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

This from the guy who made the count to infinity thread; :sherlock:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: WScott]
    #26570067 - 03/31/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Christ man you can pencil me in the “lost crowd”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleturbulentflow
Probably sober
I'm a teapot


Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 197
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26585311 - 04/08/20 12:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

redgreenvines already gave a pretty good explanation of why this system won't work to provide thrust, but I'd also like to add that the notion of using electrolysis and combustion to produce infinite power is fundamentally flawed, as it would violate the first law of thermodynamics.

We often talk about "energy" as if it's a fundamental thing, but I think it's important to realize that it's only really meaningful to talk about the energy of a particular state or system relative to another state or system. The best example of this is "potential energy". A ball that's held 10 meters above the ground can be said to have a certain amount of energy associated with its capacity to fall to a lower energy state. If you drop it, it will pick up speed as it falls, eventually impacting the ground with a certain amount of force. This isn't an intrinsic property of the ball, though, or even of its position. For example, imagine someone were to dig a hole 2 meters in depth below the ball while you're holding it. Nothing has changed about the ball or its position, however it's effectively gained "energy", because the lower energy state it could fall to has been decreased in energy relative to the ball. If you drop it, it will hit the bottom of the hole with more force than it did the ground. Similarly, if someone were to put a 1/2 meter high table on top of the ground, the ball's relative potential energy would be decreased.

The same logic applies to when we attempt to harness energy from chemical reactions. It's true that the combustion of hydrogen generates a certain amount of energy, but this isn't "free" energy. It comes from the fact that it's more energetically favorable for two hydrogen atoms to bond with an oxygen atom than with each other. In other words, the products have less energy than the reactants. However, this energy isn't lost, just released in the form of heat and radiation. It's a fundamental fact about the universe that energy must at all times be conserved, so, in fact, the amount of heat and radiation released by the reaction will be exactly equal to the difference in the energy states of the products and reactants.

Now, if you want to reverse the reaction (e.g. by performing electrolysis), in order to follow the law of conservation of energy, you'll have to "put back" the exact same amount of energy you took away from the chemicals in the first step. I mean you're trying to return them to a higher energy state, that energy has to come from somewhere. To go back to our ball example, the amount of kinetic energy released by dropping the ball is exactly the same as the amount of energy required to lift the ball to the height it was at in the first place. In other words, the process of electrolysis will require 100% of all energy generated by combustion, meaning that if any energy is lost to any external sources (e.g. if some of the energy were used to propel the craft forwards), it will be impossible to completely regenerate your fuel.

So, in other words, the absolute best case scenario for your design is a machine that sits still in space, infinitely converting hydrogen to water and back. Even this, though, will prove to be practically impossible, as energy will inevitably be lost from your system over time as heat radiates out.

However, I do like how you're thinking about how to recover as much energy as possible from the combustion by using both photovoltaics and turbines, and your design is actually quite similar in many respects to combined cycle turbines, which are meant to more efficiently generate electricity from combustion by harnessing both the heat and physical force generated by the reaction. (to the best of my knowledge, there are no commercial applications using photovoltaics, however I know that there is ongoing academic research into the matter)


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewolfiewolfie
Just wingin' it.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 2,177
Loc: Australia Flag
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26592799 - 04/11/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for your input guys!

I might go back to the drawing board one last time before giving up on this idea.


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26592912 - 04/11/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

a less complicated version of the loop with practical purposes is the gyroscope.
if you like something with a good spin to it, that would be a good area in which to go round and round.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26599388 - 04/14/20 01:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If there's no oxygen in space, what are rockets "pushing" off of?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26599748 - 04/14/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

it works well in space because the exhaust does not push back into a closed system on the other side preventing advancement,
once a rocket is off the ground the expulsion of hot gases is the force for advancement to heaven. it does not need dirt pushing back on the flames.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26599964 - 04/14/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
If there's no oxygen in space, what are rockets "pushing" off of?





It's by a principle in physics called "conservation of momentum," which comes out of Newton's laws. Basically it states that in any system that goes into motion, the momentum in the forward direction must be cancelled out by the momentum in the backwards direction, making the total net momentum zero. So if a rocket engine blasts flame backwards, the rocketship will be propelled forward by an equal amount of momentum.

So the best way to think about this is, right at the rocket nozzle where the fuel ignites, think of it as just an explosion. Of course an explosion pushes everything outward. In this case, the explosion pushes the rocket flame out backwards, and pushes the rocketship in the other direction. It doesn't matter that the rocket exhaust is blowing out into vacuum; it doesn't really need to "push" on anything. Because of course, the explosion of the fuel is pushing onto the rocketship, driving it forward.

I hope that makes sense.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26600148 - 04/14/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

perfect,
but a wasteful design


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26600163 - 04/14/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Very much so.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,224
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26601704 - 04/14/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe theres a way to entangle a whole ship and crew to a photon.. that is travelling the speed of light..

Or maybe a way to holographically project a ship and crew towards infinity via the speed of light (holographic projection)..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26602098 - 04/15/20 05:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

the future is all about hitch-hiking invisible FTL events, keep those space telescope coming.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJJ16
Stranger
Registered: 04/12/20
Posts: 2
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26602823 - 04/15/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Keep playing with ideas.  This one has some big physics flaws that have already been pointed out but that just means the next one will be better.  I think the idea is very impressive.  Not because it is feasible, but it is creative and demonstrates good problem solving given the information you have.

You are not the first to have their perpetual motion machine hoisted on the picard of entropy.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewolfiewolfie
Just wingin' it.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 2,177
Loc: Australia Flag
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: JJ16]
    #26606666 - 04/16/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Just to clarify, if the conceptual system proposed in the original post was fitted to a spacecraft that was in the vacuum of space, would the spacecraft move forwards? Regardless of energy cost etc. (For now)


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,224
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26606740 - 04/16/20 09:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes but with little speed..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26607352 - 04/17/20 07:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you stand on a skateboard on a level smooth floor, and jerk your body in one direction and stop without falling off, I think the skateboard moves in the direction of the jerk.

when I was 14 I thought that a plasma ring (held by magnets) could be spun up in a flying saucer, and that micro jerk stops would give it lift and rapid directional change.

I sent this closed loop space drive to a relative who worked at NASA, but he never got back to me. (1965)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/14/19
Posts: 12,130
Loc: maybe I had too much, too fast
Last seen: 13 hours, 10 minutes
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26607401 - 04/17/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The system you propose has losses internally to each process.
As mentioned by redgreenvines :wave: newtonian physics basically governs rocket motion and requires that the energy for motion must come from somewhere.
Traveling in space requires literally ejecting mass from the ship to produce an equal and opposite reaction in motion. Combustion is not needed, simply releasing gas creates thrust in the opposite direction.

If at a macro level your system recaptures all the energy from the thrusters then you are going nowhere. In reality your system will loose energy to thermal radiation from system loses (no system is 100% efficient) and over an infinite time you will depleat your fuel.

The only free ride is to harness solar wind which takes advantage of the duality of light being both electromagnetic energry and having mass. Solar sails literally capture the momentum of the light and add it to your ships momentum.

I would also point out that electrolysis of water to h and o requires you carry lots or water and is also an energy intensive process. That is why rockets start with these two fuels in separate tanks. At a system level this means the energy required for electrolysis has been obtained before the flight and converted to potential chemical energy to be expended during the flight. If we filled rockets with water and then tried to turn it into h and o to be burnt in flight we wouldnt go anywhere.

Now i am not all negative, take your idea of a high efficiency system, add nuclear power plant and some form of gas scavenging capability and maybe you have something of a solution to having to carry fuel. Imagine a ship that could harvest gas from planets and interstellar space and use nuclear power to turn it into propulsion.


--------------------
Indirect Weighing tek


Edited by Sugabearcrisp (04/17/20 07:44 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: Closed Loop Interstellar Propulsion System - My theory requires critique. [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #26607510 - 04/17/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

there could be a lot of "free rides" hidden in field effects that we do not yet understand, something between time and gravity, between magnetism and light; spacetime is just beginning to smile at us, but we are not close enough to recognize it's malleable features.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
guitarmon 12,198 95 11/22/03 08:57 PM
by Anonymous
* Coherence Theory.... Sclorch 1,143 4 02/02/06 07:22 AM
by Sclorch
* Prediction Theory Zero7a1 1,185 13 05/08/03 10:02 PM
by Zero7a1
* Chaos Theory SpecialEd 909 7 10/31/03 04:56 AM
by Seuss
* What is a "theory"? Anonymous 646 5 01/15/04 07:22 AM
by anarchyhollow
* DMT - Any theories?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Xlea321 9,982 101 06/01/08 10:38 PM
by backfromthedead
* No Interstellar Travel
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
OrgoneConclusion 5,446 98 08/02/07 09:34 PM
by onlynow
* Endless Big Bang Theory
( 1 2 3 all )
The_Clash_UK 4,771 43 07/16/02 02:14 PM
by francisco

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
700 topic views. 1 members, 4 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 16 queries.