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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? * 2
    #26598733 - 04/13/20 06:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

What do you guys think?

Is it even possible to "vote the bums out" at this point?
Is direct action the only viable option left?

discuss unintelligibly


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26598780 - 04/13/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think the US is a dead end. The politics don't matter, the national ethos does.

Rugged individualism doesn't make a healthy society.

The only way out, that I see, would involve a benevolent power grab. This is, frankly, impossible. I can't think of any revolutions of the top of my head where reality doesn't beat ideology. Hell, Che's image sells T-shirts today.

As a result of this fact, I think the next best thing for the US would be a massive unifying event that comes at enormous human cost. Not tens of thousands, but tens of MILLIONS dead. Something that truly beats into the thick skull of every "don't tread on me" idiot that they require a functional society to survive.


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OfflineDespica Bill
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa] * 6
    #26598948 - 04/13/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, I have a very hard time believing that the people who lobbied to get lunch breaks reduced to an unpaid 30 minutes would simply leave influential government positions up to us. This can be easily observed, as well. Pick three ranking people from any of our three governmental branches, and do a moment's research on their net worth. I've found that our government is overwhelmingly made up of people so ridiculously rich, they think that owning two multi-million-dollar houses qualifies as "dead broke" (Hillary Clinton), a million dollars is a "small loan" (Donald Trump), and a white suburban neighborhood with a median income of 100k qualifies as growing up in "The Bronx" (Ocasio-Cortez).

No, I don't think it's possible to vote the bums out, because the bums are electing themselves and each other. Our justice system only values the letter of the law, not the spirit. That puts lawyers and people who think like lawyers at the top of the food chain. So, even though there are a load of laws in place designed to prevent people from using their wealth to get elected...guess who finds a way around those rules through "lobbying"? Lawyers, and those who think like them.

There are basically two options left if we want to see things change. Direct action, or simply waiting for the collective populace to become reasonable...which will probably happen eventually, but I doubt either of us will be alive to see it.

Here's my two cents' worth of rant; capitalism has a dark side, just like every other economic system. Capitalism's demons manifest themselves as wealthy people who use their wealth to prevent other people from doing the same. Folks who made their fortunes off the stock markets regulating it to the point where they're the only ones who can continue to do it. People who made their money with real estate buying up every available entry-level property and then renting it out for more than the mortgage costs. Refusing to hire people without a college degree for anything but dead-end jobs, and then increasing the cost of education to the point that we have to go in debt for decades to get it...I could go on, but the long-story-short is this; we lost our right to control of our government as soon as we lost the will\ability to overthrow it. Which is exactly what the dudes who wrote the Constitution were trying so damn hard to prevent.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Despica Bill] * 1
    #26598998 - 04/13/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Despica Bill said: Capitalism's demons manifest themselves as wealthy people who use their wealth to prevent other people from doing the same.




nice fucking post my friend welcome aboard+5


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26599084 - 04/13/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

nice thread balls. 

Quote:

There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels…upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!



-mario savio 1942-'96
Savio was illegally hounded and surveilled by the FBI, designated as a person to be detained without judicial warrant in event of a national emergency.


https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23781068#23781068

it's gonna get bumpy everybody grow as much food as you can right now


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Edited by MadMuncher (04/13/20 09:20 PM)


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26599102 - 04/13/20 09:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
What do you guys think?

Is it even possible to "vote the bums out" at this point?
Is direct action the only viable option left?

discuss unintelligibly




yes.

the ecosystems can't take much more abuse. neither can our societies. our best chance of survival is to make small uninhabitable reservations in the desert and relocate and forcibly sterilize all wealthy european-type people to them quick before they render the entire world uninhabitable
we'll turn those big white disgusting mansions in giant tropical greenhouse gardens, free hospitals and communal housing and use their money to cook on. ready when you are


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: tear the republic down [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26599130 - 04/13/20 09:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

https://equalexchange.coop/getinvolved

solar panels with a cause
https://www.goalzero.com





where the fuck is the political revolution i thought i heard some ads about? fuck the presidency.

just another greedy lying rich white piece of pro-israel anti-human shit who tricked us all into watching the puppet show.

hang them all.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: tear the republic down [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26599153 - 04/13/20 09:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

First off, renewables are pretty hard hit with Covid, since they require installation of infrastructure, whereas oil and gas simply use the same leaky pipes they're always used.

Second, renewable energy has been explicitly excluded from the Covid relief packages.

Solar/wind is explicitly being fucked over by the government. It's not a free market. Fossil fuels are expecting government bailouts to offset their (many) losses, while renewables are expected to compete without government assistance.

If it was a free market, OPEC would be fucked, and we can't have that until MBS gets his nukes up. Don't forget to pay your taxes! Saudi Arabian needs YOU to contribute to their relief fund. Also, a few more US soldiers wouldn't hurt. Nobody likes risking their own necks, mercenaries are much better.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: tear the republic down [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26599158 - 04/13/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

its time to stop looking to the government for solutions they will get us all killed


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Re: tear the republic down [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26599167 - 04/13/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You are correct, that when you rely on an incompetent government in a failed state, the government will likely get you killed.

Are you arguing that the US is a failed state, in which the government has failed the most basic requirements of protecting the people?

Rhetorical question, republicans are in charge. Fuck the GOP. Let's drown them in the bathtub.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: tear the republic down [Re: Kryptos]
    #26599181 - 04/13/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yes. this is a failed state. remember how the government shuts down every time they put everything on the table except their own paychecks (public or otherwise).

hang them all. grow as much food as you can right now brother take care of our people


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: tear the republic down [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26599414 - 04/14/20 01:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)




Quote:

sussurador tried to say






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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26599725 - 04/14/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The current state of affairs in the U.S. are inevitable.  It doesn't matter what revolution occurs or doesn't occur.  We will end up in the same place.  Humans aren't equipped to do any better.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
    #26600551 - 04/14/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by MadMuncher

Reason for deletion: mean


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26600570 - 04/14/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

nobody decides to be born. nobody asked to exist. let's be free while we're here


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Enlil]
    #26600596 - 04/14/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

life's way too short to let some rich white guy tell you what to do.

:peace: come call me a savage to my face sometime bitch I'll give you herpes :heart:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26600601 - 04/14/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you melting down like this?


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Enlil]
    #26600634 - 04/14/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

im not. just wanted you to known i heard you.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26601719 - 04/14/20 10:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Voting has been useless my entire life.  For some reason we haven't really backed out of the dead end and picked a new direction though.

The correct approach, IMO, is to treat the government as an obstacle to be overcome.  Stop trying to take control of it and get it out of your way.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Enlil]
    #26603894 - 04/15/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i agree. "government" should be more like coalitions of locally organized community groups i think. sometimes it seems like it's all bound to fail no matter what but then we've only ever been governed by wealthy and powerful men with ancient inheritances in most of recorded history. small community groups working together as and for the people are a better alternative to being dictated by a single group of rich pale men thousands of miles away.


Edited by MadMuncher (01/17/22 04:18 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher] * 2
    #26603933 - 04/15/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Your hypocrisy is apparent. You fantasize about killing white people then accuse others of causing genocide.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
    #26603944 - 04/15/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by MadMuncher

Reason for deletion: to be quiet


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26603953 - 04/15/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
people like enlil are the reason so many genocides and mass murders have been able to happen all over the world throughout history. that's why people are oppressed. grown rich on the systems founded on the enslavement of perceived inferior people. only care about money.

for any real positive change for everyone I think we need to start by eliminating people like that from positions of power.




As far as Enlil is concerned, he's probably one of the fairest and most tolerant people you'll have the fortune to meet. Abrasive, sure, but there's a reason for that, and it's a good reason.

Argue your position using logic and evidence, and Enlil will respect that. Argue your position using idiocy, and you will get your ass beat, first verbally, and then by the BanHammer. There's a reason he's God-King Enlil, and not random dude enlil. He's earned that title.

If I was you, I'd start by distinguishing between those that have earned their wealth and those that were born into it. If you don't, then you're simply playing for the 0.01% at the expense of the 1%. In many cases, such as most of Europe, government is a force for good.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26603958 - 04/15/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Sure. Change your story now. You're not going to fix injustice with more injustice.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
    #26603978 - 04/15/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by MadMuncher

Reason for deletion: childhood trauma


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Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy.
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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26603986 - 04/15/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Enlil is a legitimately good person.  Your critique is way off-base


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26603993 - 04/15/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

most of us are but that's not relevant


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26603999 - 04/15/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You seem to enjoy your perceived victim status. How convenient it must be to claim the suffering of people you never met and place blame on other people who have never done anything to you or to those people whose suffering you've appropriated.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss *DELETED* [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26604000 - 04/15/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by MadMuncher

Reason for deletion: ptsd


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26604005 - 04/15/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Is your grievance with Enlil, or the special racist?

Again, sit down, gather your words, and form a coherent argument.

"Educate us", if you will. We have no obligations to you.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604016 - 04/15/20 08:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I have to assume he's currently impaired. I can't even understand his point.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604025 - 04/15/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:
unchecked eurocentric rhetoric and blatant white supremecy. ill take a break and try to explain a little clearer later


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Enlil]
    #26604044 - 04/15/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
:thumbup:
unchecked eurocentric rhetoric and blatant white supremecy. ill take a break and try to explain a little clearer later




Thank you.

To be clear, you are making accusations that are not at all self evident, and while I suspect you do so with good intentions, good intentions also line the path to hell. Be accurate in your statements.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I have to assume he's currently impaired. I can't even understand his point.




In vino veritas.

The assumption may be correct, but that does not necessarily discount the words.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604068 - 04/15/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That doesn't, and that wasn't my point. I was more trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he truly believes I'm racist, I'd love to hear his reasons for this belief.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Enlil]
    #26604287 - 04/15/20 10:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That doesn't, and that wasn't my point. I was more trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he truly believes I'm racist, I'd love to hear his reasons for this belief.




As I stated, in vino veritas. Truth is not always a well articulated argument. You know that better than I.

Truth is also rarely as simple as it seems. You also know that better than I.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Kryptos]
    #26604337 - 04/15/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Truth isn't really an argument at all.  Truth can sometimes be found through argument, but that's not what's happening here.  Accusations are being made without support.  I'd like to see the support for those accusations.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
    #26604368 - 04/15/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26609180 - 04/17/20 09:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
i tried. i really do love you guys.
Quote:

MadMuncher said:
probably. i have no idea. if i had to guess i would say yes. hope not.  im waiting to see just like everybody else. they take one part of a freedom at a time and dont give them back. im so sick of this shit. like im fucking pissed. turned the whole world into europe. . i find myself becoming really rascist and lashing out at white people mostly want to tell them to hurry up start killing eachother as fast as they can or go back to europe you guys were fucking shit up over there just fine. or we could share but all you wanna do is fuck everything up. please dont ban me. just let me put the thought out there. we have to listen to the aryans all fucking day every day on here we can at least consider another view.

i dont wanna live like this. death is really nothing to fear i would rather die after 30 years of being free than 74 being told what to do where i can exist. the only thing that matters in the nuEuroCali nonculture is money. planned on coming back when this settles down, now i dont know. i need to be free. run into the same exact problem as this guy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25955403/fpart/1/vc/1


stop shitting in my grandkids garden. 

who the fuck am i even talking to?
this is me talking to the world this is like the only site i use besides email.

everybody take back your food supply. take over the corporations turn em into non profits. take over the prisons turn em into farms. but instead its a fucking disney world ride like youve seen on tv.

Fuck the NuEuroCali non-culture. we should all be riding horses. all you care about is money. fuck your money.

return to the earth or return to the earth dont drag everyone else down with you. we go in our time not yours. time to go work on the cabin and  mend the gill nets












So you are an american indian?
You know, we all come from africa. I was born here also. Would it be appropriate to ask you to go back to eastern siberia?

You talk about money in ah ignorant way. Money is a means. our system isnt perfect. one of the worst problems with people on the left is that they take any deviation from their perspective of perfection as a failiure.
Its not a way to compromise, and compremise is the most important part of getting along


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26609295 - 04/17/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i think I'm over it. can't wait til breakup get me the fuck out of here

gotta go take the net out its melting quick already


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Re: come on spring [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26609481 - 04/18/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

tom cod and a herring


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26615873 - 04/20/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think the United States is doing great and is back on track. We really do have a fake news problem this country. That needs to be addressed before anything else.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: meltdowner] * 2
    #26615927 - 04/20/20 05:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
We really do have a fake news problem this country. That needs to be addressed before anything else.



Big time.  It would be easy to defeat Trump if not for all fake news against him, which actually ends up helping him as people begin to figure out that's the Dem's primary strategy.

We don't need fake news against Trump; there's more than enough bad stuff about him.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26615931 - 04/20/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Libel laws!  Bring them back in a big way.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26616003 - 04/20/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think that democracy is dead or a dead end. In fact I think it's functioning about as well as it ever has.

Having said that, one alternative might be direct democracy. Just straight up have the people vote directly on everything. That might be even worse, but I think it'd be an interesting alternative/experiment to try. One of my favorite parts of certain states is that they allow the people to directly vote on legislation, and I generally think things end up pretty good when that happens. So full on direct democracy might be an interesting system to try.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #26617122 - 04/21/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Every state should have a system of ballot initiatives or the like.

It sucks living in a state that has nothing like referendums and ballot initiatives and watching as citizens of other states wield such power.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: relic]
    #26617124 - 04/21/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That's why God gave us Uhaul!


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: relic]
    #26617178 - 04/21/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thought about it for many years. So far we've decided to stay in VA and continue to fight for legislative changes here.

Cannabis decriminalization is one such legislative change that is as close as can be to becoming law without formally being so yet.

The smartest move would have been to give up on VA long ago, but that didnt happen and likely won't anytime soon.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: relic]
    #26617391 - 04/21/20 10:30 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Va seems to be heading in the right direction now, at least. Hopefully it stays that way.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26640080 - 04/30/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

its a one party corporatocracy.
one dollar is one vote.

everything else is theatre for the proles.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: relic] * 2
    #26640551 - 05/01/20 05:47 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Every state should have a system of ballot initiatives or the like.

It sucks living in a state that has nothing like referendums and ballot initiatives and watching as citizens of other states wield such power.




Yes. That would be something at least.

It's arguably very impossible to get around the power of money in electoral politics. Our lesser evil politicians are bought and paid for too. You can get someone in power whose better on a couple issues, but favoring the super rich doesn't appear to be one of them.


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Re: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26640577 - 05/01/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I find myself subscribing to the cyclical theory of history more and more. We're in the wealth concentration and fuck everyone else part of the cycle.

I don't think accelerationists are necessarily someone that should be supported, but I have been considering what would be better for me, personally, more and more lately.

A widespread social collapse in the US over the next decade or so would likely work out pretty well as far as I'm concerned, considering my lifestyle and values.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Despica Bill] * 1
    #26645018 - 05/03/20 01:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Despica Bill said:
Personally, I have a very hard time believing that the people who lobbied to get lunch breaks reduced to an unpaid 30 minutes would simply leave influential government positions up to us. This can be easily observed, as well. Pick three ranking people from any of our three governmental branches, and do a moment's research on their net worth. I've found that our government is overwhelmingly made up of people so ridiculously rich, they think that owning two multi-million-dollar houses qualifies as "dead broke" (Hillary Clinton), a million dollars is a "small loan" (Donald Trump), and a white suburban neighborhood with a median income of 100k qualifies as growing up in "The Bronx" (Ocasio-Cortez).

No, I don't think it's possible to vote the bums out, because the bums are electing themselves and each other. Our justice system only values the letter of the law, not the spirit. That puts lawyers and people who think like lawyers at the top of the food chain. So, even though there are a load of laws in place designed to prevent people from using their wealth to get elected...guess who finds a way around those rules through "lobbying"? Lawyers, and those who think like them.

There are basically two options left if we want to see things change. Direct action, or simply waiting for the collective populace to become reasonable...which will probably happen eventually, but I doubt either of us will be alive to see it.

Here's my two cents' worth of rant; capitalism has a dark side, just like every other economic system. Capitalism's demons manifest themselves as wealthy people who use their wealth to prevent other people from doing the same. Folks who made their fortunes off the stock markets regulating it to the point where they're the only ones who can continue to do it. People who made their money with real estate buying up every available entry-level property and then renting it out for more than the mortgage costs. Refusing to hire people without a college degree for anything but dead-end jobs, and then increasing the cost of education to the point that we have to go in debt for decades to get it...I could go on, but the long-story-short is this; we lost our right to control of our government as soon as we lost the will\ability to overthrow it. Which is exactly what the dudes who wrote the Constitution were trying so damn hard to prevent.




This is a top-level post, and as such, a rarity here on Shroomery. Welcome to Shroomery. You're going to do awesome here.

Only thing I'd like to add is that every system has people at the top trying to maintain some illusion of democracy/equality at the expense of everyone else.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26647100 - 05/03/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Not really, even the most unpopular people win with the right amount of money backing them.

Look at Mitch McConnell, hes been re-elected 5 times...

Theres no money like Marlboro money....


--------------------
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26647103 - 05/03/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Money doesn't buy elections.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26647124 - 05/03/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Going up against unlimited money in an election is going up against unlimited airtime to discredit and smear you.


--------------------
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chaos and decay"
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26647665 - 05/04/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There's no such thing as unlimited money


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647763 - 05/04/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Oooh, he got you with an unimportant technicality.  Enlil LOVES to do that! 

I guess you have to say something like Going up against big money in an election is going up against big airtime to discredit and smear you.  :shake:


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647766 - 05/04/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I know you guys LOVE to hate on the rich, but time and again, it's been proven that money doesn't buy elections.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647794 - 05/04/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It buys votes though.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647800 - 05/04/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Not in the U.S.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647807 - 05/04/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:doublefacepalm:

Source?  Or make believe?


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647824 - 05/04/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You're the one who made the claim.  You said money buys votes.  Support that with sources, or was it just make believe?


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647839 - 05/04/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647851 - 05/04/20 09:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I saw a lot in there about correlation... not much about causation.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647861 - 05/04/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So you saw that more money correlated with more votes, but you're going to say there's no causation?

Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26647898 - 05/04/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There might be causation from a third factor. More popular candidates get more votes and more money donated to spend.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:




Recently, your rhetorical skills have devolved to tactics like this.  This is something I would expect from a junior high or high school level debater.  What is going on with you, bro?


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647988 - 05/04/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There might be causation from a third factor. More popular candidates get more votes and more money donated to spend.



And what do you think makes a candidate popular?  What if you decide to run?  How will people know who you are if you don't have a lot of money?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:



Recently, your rhetorical skills have devolved to tactics like this.  This is something I would expect from a junior high or high school level debater.  What is going on with you, bro?



That was just a little dig because I showed a correlation between money and votes as you requested, and you simply rejected it.  Sorry - I'll try to avoid these digs in the future if you'll pay more attention to the evidence.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648024 - 05/04/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What makes a candidate popular is the message.  Money can get out the message, yes, but if that message is shitty, that money will only serve to make that candidate less popular.

If I spend a billion dollars on an ad campaign that says, "vote for me.  I'll enslave the whole world!"  Do you think that will get me a lot of votes?

My point is that money isn't the deciding factor here.  Money only amplifies the message.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26648080 - 05/04/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Can we not argue this technicality?

More often than not the candidate with the bigger war chest wins. Obviously there are other factors, including media time. Trump beat Hillary with less money because the media loved talking about him. Bernie had the most money and lost because the media hated him.


As for the original question: No, they aren’t a dead end. But politics isn’t a one way destination either, where you navigate the proper path and get to where you’re going.

Think of it like filling a cup. Electoral politics fills some of the cup, organizing movements fills more still, etc.

“Vote because the Republicans are evil, organize because the Democrats are evil.”


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648195 - 05/04/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Money doesn't buy elections.




It maintains an one party system, which makes the election result completely irrelevant.


Edited by qman (05/04/20 12:08 PM)


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648208 - 05/04/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What makes a candidate popular is the message.  Money can get out the message, yes, but if that message is shitty, that money will only serve to make that candidate less popular.

If I spend a billion dollars on an ad campaign that says, "vote for me.  I'll enslave the whole world!"  Do you think that will get me a lot of votes?

My point is that money isn't the deciding factor here.  Money only amplifies the message.



If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26648221 - 05/04/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



We're not saying it buys elections.  But it buys votes, as Mini Mike made very clear.  I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648259 - 05/04/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



We're not saying it buys elections.  But it buys votes, as Mini Mike made very clear.  I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.



Do you even know what you're saying? The guy spent the most ever on an election campaign and dropped out early due to low support. It doesn't sound like he bought very many votes


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648260 - 05/04/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.



Exactly...they like his message.  A solid message does win votes.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648280 - 05/04/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Not if nobody knows about it.

I think we're all agreeing.  You need money to win, but money doesn't guarantee a win.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648289 - 05/04/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes...which is different than money buying votes.  Everyone needs money to win.  Who wins will be determined by the message...not the amount of money.

This is why public funding of elections is really necessary.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648390 - 05/04/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To what extent? Public funding as the sole source of funds for elections?


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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26648396 - 05/04/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think that's necessary.  Just funding sufficient to get a candidate's message out.  If another candidate spends more, that's fine.  The quality of the messages will ultimately win the day.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26648649 - 05/04/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
To what extent? Public funding as the sole source of funds for elections?




Would be nice. I'd support that.

Seems to me that the US has very few industries left. We dump money into bombing brown people, we dump money into 2-3 year long electoral spectacles, and everybody else just kinda gets by.

One thing that gets me is that we're currently in a deflationary recession, even though we've dumped what, $6T into the economy?

There is very little actual liquidity in the US economy, which is why we're collapsing. All the wealth is owned by a half dozen people, and they aren't sharing. At this point, the only real liquidity outside of military and electoral spectacle is funded by the government, or is too small to be noticed by the Big Six. The parts funded by the government flow to the BS anyway.


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