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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647807 - 05/04/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:doublefacepalm:

Source?  Or make believe?


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647824 - 05/04/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You're the one who made the claim.  You said money buys votes.  Support that with sources, or was it just make believe?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647839 - 05/04/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26647851 - 05/04/20 09:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I saw a lot in there about correlation... not much about causation.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647861 - 05/04/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So you saw that more money correlated with more votes, but you're going to say there's no causation?

Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26647898 - 05/04/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There might be causation from a third factor. More popular candidates get more votes and more money donated to spend.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:




Recently, your rhetorical skills have devolved to tactics like this.  This is something I would expect from a junior high or high school level debater.  What is going on with you, bro?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26647988 - 05/04/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There might be causation from a third factor. More popular candidates get more votes and more money donated to spend.



And what do you think makes a candidate popular?  What if you decide to run?  How will people know who you are if you don't have a lot of money?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Classic Enlil folks.  :cookiemonster:



Recently, your rhetorical skills have devolved to tactics like this.  This is something I would expect from a junior high or high school level debater.  What is going on with you, bro?



That was just a little dig because I showed a correlation between money and votes as you requested, and you simply rejected it.  Sorry - I'll try to avoid these digs in the future if you'll pay more attention to the evidence.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648024 - 05/04/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What makes a candidate popular is the message.  Money can get out the message, yes, but if that message is shitty, that money will only serve to make that candidate less popular.

If I spend a billion dollars on an ad campaign that says, "vote for me.  I'll enslave the whole world!"  Do you think that will get me a lot of votes?

My point is that money isn't the deciding factor here.  Money only amplifies the message.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26648080 - 05/04/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Can we not argue this technicality?

More often than not the candidate with the bigger war chest wins. Obviously there are other factors, including media time. Trump beat Hillary with less money because the media loved talking about him. Bernie had the most money and lost because the media hated him.


As for the original question: No, they aren’t a dead end. But politics isn’t a one way destination either, where you navigate the proper path and get to where you’re going.

Think of it like filling a cup. Electoral politics fills some of the cup, organizing movements fills more still, etc.

“Vote because the Republicans are evil, organize because the Democrats are evil.”


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Offlineqman
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648195 - 05/04/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Money doesn't buy elections.




It maintains an one party system, which makes the election result completely irrelevant.


Edited by qman (05/04/20 12:08 PM)


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648208 - 05/04/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What makes a candidate popular is the message.  Money can get out the message, yes, but if that message is shitty, that money will only serve to make that candidate less popular.

If I spend a billion dollars on an ad campaign that says, "vote for me.  I'll enslave the whole world!"  Do you think that will get me a lot of votes?

My point is that money isn't the deciding factor here.  Money only amplifies the message.



If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26648221 - 05/04/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



We're not saying it buys elections.  But it buys votes, as Mini Mike made very clear.  I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648259 - 05/04/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
If money buys elections then happened to mini mike?



We're not saying it buys elections.  But it buys votes, as Mini Mike made very clear.  I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.



Do you even know what you're saying? The guy spent the most ever on an election campaign and dropped out early due to low support. It doesn't sound like he bought very many votes


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648260 - 05/04/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know a lot of people in California who were for Bloomberg because they liked his ads.



Exactly...they like his message.  A solid message does win votes.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648280 - 05/04/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Not if nobody knows about it.

I think we're all agreeing.  You need money to win, but money doesn't guarantee a win.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26648289 - 05/04/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes...which is different than money buying votes.  Everyone needs money to win.  Who wins will be determined by the message...not the amount of money.

This is why public funding of elections is really necessary.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: Enlil]
    #26648390 - 05/04/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To what extent? Public funding as the sole source of funds for elections?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26648396 - 05/04/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think that's necessary.  Just funding sufficient to get a candidate's message out.  If another candidate spends more, that's fine.  The quality of the messages will ultimately win the day.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Are Electoral Politics a Dead End? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26648649 - 05/04/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
To what extent? Public funding as the sole source of funds for elections?




Would be nice. I'd support that.

Seems to me that the US has very few industries left. We dump money into bombing brown people, we dump money into 2-3 year long electoral spectacles, and everybody else just kinda gets by.

One thing that gets me is that we're currently in a deflationary recession, even though we've dumped what, $6T into the economy?

There is very little actual liquidity in the US economy, which is why we're collapsing. All the wealth is owned by a half dozen people, and they aren't sharing. At this point, the only real liquidity outside of military and electoral spectacle is funded by the government, or is too small to be noticed by the Big Six. The parts funded by the government flow to the BS anyway.


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