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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub?
#26586546 - 04/08/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hi all,
It's my first post but I've been lurking for a while and I've successfully nurtured a bunch of PF cakes. I'm grateful to all the people who share their experiences here.
Consider this a photo journal of my experiment to fruit an extremely unhappy monotub. I had a hard time finding answers to some of my questions, so I hope my experience can help somebody else down the road, even if it only shows what NOT to do 
So... My first mono has been having issues even before being put into fruiting conditions, and I've been doubtful that it would produce anything... but lo and behold, it's fruiting on the sides of the sub, where it's pulled away from the bin! Issues outlined in detail below.

Long story short β About 8 days after spawning to coir/verm mix (5050 tek), I noticed mycelial growth was extremely stringy and sad looking, humidity seemed very high, and there was some yellow liquid in a few spots. Temps had definitely gotten at least as high as 83 a few times due to unavoidable environmental conditions. I did some research and diagnosed bacterial interference, and I decided to introduce FAE early in hopes of giving the mycelium a fighting chance.
Yellow liquid stopped progressing almost immediately, but the mycelium stalled too. Unfortunately there was at least one day where temps approached 85+ in the closet while I was at work. I got temps under control and gave it some time, but mycelium appeared totally stalled. The top of the sub dried out, and I think mycelium there is actually dead. Even with heavy misting, I still won't have any condensation in the bin after just 6 hours, and I don't even have holes cut (the closet is in a high-altitude desert).
So now it's just a big experiment! I've started misting heavily 3x/day (thanks, quarantine...) and I have temps steady in the mid-70's. I figured with all said so far there would be no way I'd ever see fruit, so I just wanted to see what happened. And then....
I have fruits starting all around the edges of the sub where it's pulled away from the bin, which is exciting, but also I have no idea how to get the top to fruit. I really think it won't since there were times when it got so dry it was crumbly. The bits in the photo that look torn up are where I did some experimental digging (yeah, I know, but I figure I can't make it worse, and I might still learn something...).
So β My idea is to flip the substrate, trim the fruits off the sides, and hope the bottom will fruit when it's the top. Research reveals that some people have had this work, though most say it isn't ideal.
Unless somebody has a better idea for me, I'll be doing it within 24 hours. More photos to follow
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26586588 - 04/08/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Also, not sure it matters now, but just anticipating some questions and adding some detailβ
Spawn was rye, innoc'd with spore syringes. None of the jars showed overt signs of contamination before spawning.
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Mystic E

Registered: 09/13/19
Posts: 75
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26586639 - 04/08/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm no expert but I would be interested to see what happens if you flip it
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Mystic E]
#26586838 - 04/08/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mystic E said: I'm no expert but I would be interested to see what happens if you flip it 
Yeah man I'm super curious myself! Unless somebody tells me that's gonna absolutely destroy a potential huge flush (yeah, right π) then I'm doing it tomorrow morning.
The babies on the sides are starting to really take off though... I'm wondering if I should cut the sub in half and put it in two different bins and fruit if off of the sides....
All this would be insane under normal circumstances, I know... but I already f*ed up so now I get to do SCIENCE!
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Justweed
Bobby's short shorts



Registered: 04/01/20
Posts: 555
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26586907 - 04/08/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Did you case this sub? I wouldn't flip it, but instead keep the PH up high, 90%+ to help initiate pinning. It's also possible you're giving too much air and that's why the sides have pinned, because that's where CO2 is building up better. Less air exchange for a few days, higher humidity, see how that goes.
--------------------
  Keep 'em high and tight guys....
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 3 months, 7 days
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Justweed]
#26586919 - 04/08/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't flip it. Soak it down with a heavy mist. Then lay a piece of foil or syran wrap directly on the surface of the tub for ,2-3 days. Then introduce heavy FAE with Misting. And your sub should start producing. Looks like it dried out. Ignore those bottom pins they will lead you a stray.
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Sockadin]
#26587438 - 04/08/20 09:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Justweed said: Did you case this sub? I wouldn't flip it, but instead keep the PH up high, 90%+ to help initiate pinning. It's also possible you're giving too much air and that's why the sides have pinned, because that's where CO2 is building up better. Less air exchange for a few days, higher humidity, see how that goes.
I did case it w/ 1/8'' of coir. I know it isn't necessary but I figured I'd see what it was all about.
Quote:
Sockadin said: Don't flip it. Soak it down with a heavy mist. Then lay a piece of foil or syran wrap directly on the surface of the tub for ,2-3 days. Then introduce heavy FAE with Misting. And your sub should start producing. Looks like it dried out. Ignore those bottom pins they will lead you a stray.
So I'm hearing from both of you that I should put it back into pre-fruiting conditions and let it keep colonizing/consolidating β Wet it down really well, reduce FAE and pray that the bacteria doesn't get a boost. That's definitely easier than what I was considering!
So just to confirm β It should still be possible to get the pins on the top even though it got very dry and it isn't pinning at all now? Also, I don't have to trim the pins on the side for any reason?
I appreciate the advice. One more vote and I go your way. I can experiment more later when I'm not almost out of mushrooms
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Mystic E

Registered: 09/13/19
Posts: 75
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26587887 - 04/09/20 02:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah you should do what these guys said. That sounds like a better way of saving it tbh
I would harvest the side pins when they have matured first and then do the heavy mist + foil thing.
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Mystic E]
#26588677 - 04/09/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mystic E said: Yeah you should do what these guys said. That sounds like a better way of saving it tbh
I would harvest the side pins when they have matured first and then do the heavy mist + foil thing.
Ok I won't flip it then. Foil it is!
So today all of a sudden I have two pins on the top β I assume reducing FAE is still the way to go because it will induce more pinning faster eh?
I like the idea of waiting to harvest the babies on the sides but things are going really fast now and there are twice as many side pins today as yesterday. I think I'm just going to commit to reducing FAE ASAP and go for at least a few days. As Sockadin said, those side pins will lead me astray....
Thanks guys, I'll add more pics later today
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26591244 - 04/10/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So about 24 hours ago I gave a heavy mist and wrapped the top of the bin with seran wrap. The sub is glistening with water droplets but I don't see any pooling. It's clear that pin growth is slowing. There are a few more on the top of the sub now, but still less than 10, and the bigger ones haven't grown much at all today. All the condensation makes it hard to see inside, but it seems like the mycelium may be colonizing the top of the sub now. A few more days will tell for sure.
I'm a bit nervous that all those pins will abort due to the changing conditions and cutting off FAE, but if the bin produces more in the end it'll be worth it.
The experiment continues!
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feldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26591334 - 04/10/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Top of the sub, not top of the tub
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: feldman114]
#26595384 - 04/12/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Top of the sub, not top of the tub
Sockadin said "tub" but I see how that could easily be a typo. At this point it's a bit too late anyway, seran wrap coming off today.
So you're saying I should have laid tin foil down on top of the substrate itself huh?
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26595418 - 04/12/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, there are clear signs of bacterial growth and cobweb mold is getting started too. Most of the pins appear dead. I must say I'm not surprised, but I wonder if it could have been saved. I think if I just let it continue fruiting and took some fruit off the sides I at least could have gotten something. There are probably over 75 pins on the sides now.
It seems either I should have done nothing or I should have put foil down on top of the sub rather than wrap the tub itself. I think with as long as the tub was in there and with such low vigor it was already at high risk for contams, then reducing FAE so much just gave them the edge they needed. Thoughts from anyone?

On the bright side, there is definitely way more consolidation throughout the substrate now, even if not on top. I think I'm just going to spray the top with some powerful H202 or maybe scrape it off and then flip it. Why the heck not at this point? I won't need the space for a while anyway....
Hopefully this can benefit another noob such as myself some day. It's just as important to know what NOT to do as what TO do, I suppose π€
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webweaver
Stranger


Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 30
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26595543 - 04/12/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I had lackluster results with the surface of my shoebox, crazy underpinning and sidepinning, flipped it, got 3 flushes of fruit before it trich'd out. It's an option for sure. Best of luck.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26534309
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



Registered: 08/17/01
Posts: 19,026
Loc: In Your Head
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: webweaver]
#26595672 - 04/12/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe use a liner next time and not have to worry about it?
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 3 months, 7 days
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: eatyualive]
#26595700 - 04/12/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah I ment sub. My bad.
Foil directly over the substrate for a day or two. But I would say based on your last picture mist more. It still looks really dry. I don't see cobweb, but I do see maybe some mold. it is hard to tell from the pictures.
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Sockadin]
#26599109 - 04/13/20 09:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
webweaver said: I had lackluster results with the surface of my shoebox, crazy underpinning and sidepinning, flipped it, got 3 flushes of fruit before it trich'd out. It's an option for sure. Best of luck.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26534309
It's good to know it can recover! Thanks for sharing your experience.
Quote:
eatyualive said: Maybe use a liner next time and not have to worry about it? 
I definitely thought about that but I read a few teks that say you don't need one. I might give it a shot on my next bin, though I'd really like to minimize plastic waste. Thanks for the advice 
Quote:
Sockadin said: Yeah I ment sub. My bad.
Foil directly over the substrate for a day or two. But I would say based on your last picture mist more. It still looks really dry. I don't see cobweb, but I do see maybe some mold. it is hard to tell from the pictures.
Ha no worries! Man, it has been so challenging to keep this bin moist. I don't even have any holes for FAE and somehow the sides of the bin will be completely dry if I don't mist it every 4 hours. I'm sure that's just being in a desert at high altitude, but maybe it also dried out so badly in the first place that it is still sucking up moisture. I'm going to start misting more from here on out.
As for an overall update, nothing much happening since flipping yesterday. Will post pics if I get pins
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
#26608957 - 04/17/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, we've got pins again! They're moving pretty quickly, too.
It has been a major struggle to keep this bin humid, but as I've started to do better it seems the myc has sprung back, recolonizing the spot that cracked from flipping and starting to eat up some rye grains that it hadn't yet covered.
Even with misting 4-5 times/day, the only way to keep this bin happy has proved to be getting my closet RH over 70. My other bin has also loved it. Freakin' desert....
I'm not sure I'll actually be able to eat any of these babies because the sub is so clearly contaminated and several of the pins have what appears to be a thin layer of white mold on them, but at least I'm learning a lot. Here are some pics:
Oops, Shroomery is throwing an error for the pic upload. Pics to follow soon.
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Rich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot



Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
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Re: Experiment on a Sad Mono-Flip the Sub? [Re: Rich Ryegrain] 1
#26642053 - 05/01/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So I got one long, extended, uneven flush from this bin, and it's clearly been getting more and more bacterial the whole time (no surprise there). Total, it's given about 2.5 oz of medium to large fruits (up to 4g dry). More than half were side pins that came up fast, but some did form on the top (previously bottom) surface. The pics here are just of the first very early flush.

The moral of the story is that yes, you can flip a bin and get some fruits, but if you're even considering that at all you've probably already failed your mycelium.
Thanks everybody for your advice. This bin is officially retired. I'll post photos of the underside if I find anything interesting when I compost it.
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