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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591052 - 04/10/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.



Meaning is a force of human language, and varies by context. To say there is no meaning to life implies that you are missing something to define from. That life has no meaning doesn't really say anything about the nature of life, except that it is sometimes more complex than the scope of a language defined by a network of associative meaning can define it from.

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Patrick, the point is that something unobservable would have to have no relationship to anything at all.  If you can find an observable or can exemplify an  unobserved composite thing that has on relationship to anything in the cosmos, my hats off to you. 

Current established scientific practice and theory shows, that is impossible.

I’m not positing religion, nor superstition, nor out of this world fringe philosophy, or against actual science.

So were are you guys pulling this shit out of?



I haven't been following the thread at all. I genuinely just chimed in to insert observable into a sentence.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591055 - 04/10/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
]
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Show me where, with an example, with any form of matter or anything of your choosing - show me how it evades the law of interdependent origination?  Give an example of the separation you mention.  Does it negate the law?

Find one thing, in the universe, that you can personally verify, that upends my proposition.  I will happily admit I am wrong about Non duality being the nature of reality.






Quantum physics where particles can pop in and out of existence without any relationship to each other. In fact much of quantum physics disproves nonduality and it disproves the "Singularity" hypothesis for the origin of the universe. At the macro level there is "interdependence" and causality, but at the quantum level all that breaks down.

Also interdependence isn't "oneness" since it's still a collection of individual parts, not a monolithic entity.




The “singularity”.. who is taking about that as an origin of the universe?  And what do you know of the macrocosm or microcosm besides what you have glimpsed from a secondary source?  Quantum theory, is not proven, he’ll it’s had little chance to be disprove because so far the majority of its work is in theoretical practice for when an established (meaning , it has worked thus far in our limited capacity- but than it stops working- the equations that is) theory’s’ primary working equations can no longer work within an acceptable parameter in terms of real life applications in regards to its precision and accuracy in real applications.

What you speak of, is no more than make believe ,  but you don’t even realize it.  It would be one thing if you had a degree in quantum mechanics and could say anything other than “ according to quantum physics a particle can ...get this... pop in...and pop out of existence”

You don’t know what particle they’re referring to, nor do you know how or which mathematical equations are being used to measure what you term “pop” - “in” or “out” of “existence”.   

Also, tell me how you used quantum physics to figure out via the scientific method, with empirical data to back up your claim, and some colleagues with the academic phds to reproduce the experiment and got similar results,  -  that interdependent origination breaks down at the microcosmic level? 

Because apparently if that’s what you found out and know, and not just believe,  than thermodynamics is royally fucked big time.

Ps.  What am I positing that is more ?  Interdependent origination holds with general relativity, and with Newton’s laws... maybe I’m just stupid because I didn’t graduate with a degree in quantum mechanics :shrug: 

Enlighten me,




You post really shows how little you know about the field to call it just a "theory".

It's pretty well established in the field that matter and antimatter particles pop in and out all the time. The term is quantum foam due to how it forms.

Also thermodynamics didn't "Fuck up" big time, again you are applying classical mechanics to quantum mechanics. Conversation of energy doesn't apply if the change occurs in a short enough time like with these particles. Hence why quantum physics is "weird' because it doesn't behave according to classical mechanics and vice versa.

Your interdependence is still classical mechanics, which doesn't apply at a quantum level.

Your oneness is just a feeling based on observation of what is before you. But drill deeper and it doesn't hold.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26591058 - 04/10/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The problem is, using something you haven’t the faintest clue of, and misrepresenting it.  Ex. If I know that I know that I’m seriously ill and with no diagnosis, it’s fucking obvious the nature of the problem currently lies, in my most cautious assumption, in the body.  But I have no actual understanding of the illness, what is happening on the molecular level, how that is affecting individual cells, how that affects the bodies various organ systems and the massive complexity and immense information that needs to be known to (1) find the actual source of the illness...not just a symptom known through the sense organs and

(2). One would still have no idea how to treat the issue safety, or correctly, (3) ex. You have blastomycosis but don’t know it, are an autosomal or a X- linked sex recessive disorder and one of those is causing the illness and symptoms... just because you know the general direction of the moon, doesn’t mean you know it’s location astronomically, not in a way in which you could get a shuttle there or something.  The examples  are endless.


Case in point, quantum mechanics.  Actually,  it’s more than likely non of has any bearing with it all, more than likely everyone has heard a pundit or Tyson or some celeb, or maybe an interview with an actual theorist if your kewl, and more than likely they were expounding on uncharted territory and hypothesizing and generalizing and dumbing it so dark down for the audience that what was heard, is in fact nothing but conjecture based on the implications of the results of an actual experiment.

And that’s not fucking science,


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 01:17 PM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591059 - 04/10/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Patrick, the point is that something unobservable would have to have no relationship to anything at all.  If you can find an observable or can exemplify an  unobserved composite thing that has on relationship to anything in the cosmos, my hats off to you.  If you cannot see why you cant,  your both in need of help. 

Current established scientific practice and theory shows, that is impossible.

I’m not positing religion, nor superstition, nor out of this world fringe philosophy, or against actual science.

So were are you guys pulling this shit out of?




And if it were the case that such particles popped in and out with no cause or dependence on anything? What then?

Your model of "oneness" is based on classical mechanics. It seems to me you are in need of help since there is holes in your interpretation of your "non dual" experience.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26591063 - 04/10/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.




That's a common trap actually. The "curse of intellect" is usually just something people say to justify their misery. I mean sure life is meaningless but why point that out and why tell others about it?




I only point it out when I run into ignorant bible thumpers. I can't stand it when people want to throw their religion in my face. I think deep down a lot of those people know its bullshit. Whenever I start ranting about how they're wrong they always interrupt and stop me before I finish my point.  They don't even want to hear what I have to say because they know there's truth to it. They honestly are cowards.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591065 - 04/10/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
The problem is, using something you haven’t the faintest clue of, and misrepresenting it.

Case in point, quantum mechanics.  Actually,  it’s more than likely non of has any bearing with it all, more than likely everyone has heard a pundit or Tyson or some celeb, or maybe an interview with an actual theorist if your kewl, and more than likely they were expounding on uncharted territory and hypothesizing and generalizing and dumbing it so dark down for the audience that what was heard, is in fact nothing but conjecture based on the implications of the results of an actual experiment.

And that’s not fucking science,




Well it does because I have spoken with people who know this stuff quite well (you dig around the internet enough you find a way but they are pretty open to discussion).

In a sense they try to take this VERY complex subject and relate it in a way that people can understand what it means. It doesn't always work out that way and there are plenty of Woo peddlers out there with no degrees in the subject putting words in their mouths.

However what I can say with relative certainty is that "you" are not the universe.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Shenmue]
    #26591068 - 04/10/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.




That's a common trap actually. The "curse of intellect" is usually just something people say to justify their misery. I mean sure life is meaningless but why point that out and why tell others about it?




I only point it out when I run into ignorant bible thumpers. I can't stand it when people want to throw their religion in my face. I think deep down a lot of those people know its bullshit. Whenever I start ranting about how they're wrong they always interrupt and stop me before I finish my point.  They don't even want to hear what I have to say because they know there's truth to it. They honestly are cowards.




Actually you can't say they are "wrong" because we technically can't prove there is no God. But you can question their evidence for it, and that is little more than a sand castle.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26591071 - 04/10/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Thanatos:"I mean sure life is meaningless"...

That depends on how one perceives life. Why does it have to have meaning? What if the meaning of life is just to enjoy it? Why can't one just enjoy here and now? I try to.:shrug:
This conversation is interesting with all you people though.

:popcorn:


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591073 - 04/10/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
The problem is, using something you haven’t the faintest clue of, and misrepresenting it.

Case in point, quantum mechanics.  Actually,  it’s more than likely non of has any bearing with it all, more than likely everyone has heard a pundit or Tyson or some celeb, or maybe an interview with an actual theorist if your kewl, and more than likely they were expounding on uncharted territory and hypothesizing and generalizing and dumbing it so dark down for the audience that what was heard, is in fact nothing but conjecture based on the implications of the results of an actual experiment.

And that’s not fucking science,



Let's rewind, because I wasn't following the conversation until I posted a page back, so what you're talking about is without any context for me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my putting the word unobservable in implies something unscientific, correct? And if so, could you elaborate as to why, and to what point it contradicts that you are arguing for.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26591084 - 04/10/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I edited my last statement to contain actual examples, as banal they may be.  please reread it.

And, if you aren’t an autodidactic studier, and don’t have at least a degree in the subject, I frankly think your just smearing shit around till it looks pretty.

I’m going to go with the Tiger King , peace people.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591094 - 04/10/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I edited my last statement to contain actual examples, as banal they may be.  please reread it.

And, if you aren’t an autodidactic studier, and don’t have at least a degree in the subject, I frankly think your just smearing shit around till it looks pretty.

I’m going to go with the Tiger King , peace people.




I don’t trust “self taught” problem on quantum physics as they know nothing when you try to verify their sources.

Sounds to me like you heard something you didn’t like that breaks down what you thought to be true.

Side note: oneness is a feeling to cultivate as it numbs you to others. During the times I was in such a state I cared about nothing and no one because...well you get it.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591100 - 04/10/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is a misunderstanding. Because I'm genuinely lost at what you're trying to say in the post you edited in regards to what I posted. That's not to say there is no connection between what you are saying and what I said, just that I cannot observe a connection.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26591103 - 04/10/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.




That's a common trap actually. The "curse of intellect" is usually just something people say to justify their misery. I mean sure life is meaningless but why point that out and why tell others about it?




I only point it out when I run into ignorant bible thumpers. I can't stand it when people want to throw their religion in my face. I think deep down a lot of those people know its bullshit. Whenever I start ranting about how they're wrong they always interrupt and stop me before I finish my point.  They don't even want to hear what I have to say because they know there's truth to it. They honestly are cowards.




Actually you can't say they are "wrong" because we technically can't prove there is no God. But you can question their evidence for it, and that is little more than a sand castle.




When did I say there's no God? I never said that. What I'm saying is that religion is man made and complete bullshit. If there is a God it's obvious that he doesn't care about us. Everything on the planet is killing and eating each other so when people say that God is love I find it hilarious. When I say life is meaningless what I mean is that everything is random and that there's probably no afterlife. Even if there was a afterlife time itself would destroy who you are now so it doesn't even matter. You're not the same person you was 10 years ago so imagine a million years down the road. We're going to end no matter what happens. Yes life is basically meaningless..


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26591106 - 04/10/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
The problem is, using something you haven’t the faintest clue of, and misrepresenting it.

Case in point, quantum mechanics.  Actually,  it’s more than likely non of has any bearing with it all, more than likely everyone has heard a pundit or Tyson or some celeb, or maybe an interview with an actual theorist if your kewl, and more than likely they were expounding on uncharted territory and hypothesizing and generalizing and dumbing it so dark down for the audience that what was heard, is in fact nothing but conjecture based on the implications of the results of an actual experiment.

And that’s not fucking science,



Let's rewind, because I wasn't following the conversation until I posted a page back, so what you're talking about is without any context for me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my putting the word unobservable in implies something unscientific, correct? And if so, could you elaborate as to why, and to what point it contradicts that you are arguing for.




We cannot observe the spaghetti monster - that some individuals and groups - claim exists existence, or better yet for the sake of this convo, “if it matters”, then it has at the least some, even the most negligible effect on anything whatsoever... and therefore we can observe with our senses alone or via proxy extension by using an aperture or specially made instrument to infer its existence - more specific than existence -  it it as a real phenomena or not.

Difference.  You, by definition “exist” in space-time, you matter and you have mass and density and you are affected by the other things that exist too, on a subatomic scale and on a macro cosmic scale.

2ndly,  gravity ,  is not classically “existant” like say you or the sun,  so for now it’s phenomena we know of it because of the phenomena it is - or more aptly, the changes it causes on everything else in space-time.  We can’t sense it with our eyes, or ears, or tongue (not well atleast or in a normal way of thinking ...but with the sense of touch - contact - that sensation , we can know it.  And in calculations with fine instrumentation we can measure it by measuring it effect over time on its surroundings.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 01:37 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26591113 - 04/10/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I edited my last statement to contain actual examples, as banal they may be.  please reread it.

And, if you aren’t an autodidactic studier, and don’t have at least a degree in the subject, I frankly think your just smearing shit around till it looks pretty.

I’m going to go with the Tiger King , peace people.




I don’t trust “self taught” problem on quantum physics as they know nothing when you try to verify their sources.

Sounds to me like you heard something you didn’t like that breaks down what you thought to be true.

Side note: oneness is a feeling to cultivate as it numbs you to others. During the times I was in such a state I cared about nothing and no one because...well you get it.




1.  Ya didn’t read my original  post you nut,  because I stated the term “oneness” is inaccurate.

2.  If you don’t trust self taught,  don’t trust yourself, you don’t have a degree in it son.

3.  It’s not a feeling to cultivate, its not oneness, it’s non dual awareness and your anecdote does not meet its specifications.

Whatever you experienced sounds like a psychotic episode, not a mystical experience.  Actually what your talking about is Solipsism, not the non dual state of primordial awareness, in fact that is as far as you could get, but I can see how experientially they can seem similar if you only know the 1,  I’ ha e experience with 2 .

Btw How old are you Thanatos?  I may be coming off more harsh than I need to and I want to know,  been up for a while so I’m cranky!

:excuseme: Ha


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 01:39 PM)


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591119 - 04/10/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I get the sense that you are confused on my meaning of the word 'observable', and that if taking a deeper look I think we are arguing the same point from different views (in reference to connections that cannot be perceived, but are connected, I haven't commented on anything else you two are talking about). Gravity is an observable force because we can measure its effect. Observability is not limited to that which we can taste and see.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobservable


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26591126 - 04/10/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

And yet we have particles popping in and out without cause and classical causality breaking down. We can't apply "Standard rules" when talking about the quantum world.
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I edited my last statement to contain actual examples, as banal they may be.  please reread it.

And, if you aren’t an autodidactic studier, and don’t have at least a degree in the subject, I frankly think your just smearing shit around till it looks pretty.

I’m going to go with the Tiger King , peace people.




I don’t trust “self taught” problem on quantum physics as they know nothing when you try to verify their sources.

Sounds to me like you heard something you didn’t like that breaks down what you thought to be true.

Side note: oneness is a feeling to cultivate as it numbs you to others. During the times I was in such a state I cared about nothing and no one because...well you get it.




1.  Ya didn’t read my original  post you nut,  because I stated the term “oneness” is inaccurate.

2.  If you don’t trust self taught,  don’t trust yourself, you don’t have a degree in it son.

3.  It’s not a feeling to cultivate, its not oneness, it’s non dual awareness and your anecdote does not meet its specifications.

Whatever you experienced sounds like a psychotic episode, not a mystical experience.  How old are you Thanatos?




What exactly is the difference between that and a psychotic episode? How is my age relevant at all? If as it was mentioned before it was something known then why would my age matter?

Even non-dual is pitting it against what it isn't (assuming it is an actual thing).

As for #2 I asked people who spent their lives studying the subject and I'm merely telling you what they have said. I ask the experts.

What you posit isn't "it" from other accounts I have heard. There is no joy or love or anything "human". Not that I believe it but their accounts don't match your's so someone is doing something wrong. But then again that's what happens when all you have for your claim is an anecdote.


--------------------
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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26591131 - 04/10/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Right Pat, Correct, I think we just had a mix up there.

No Thanatos ,  reality itself just as it is, it’s nature is non dual.  Non duality is not in opposition to anything, that’s it nature, it’s open like the sky.,  there is nothing that it’s interdependent with, it’s an all encompassing nature, hence the term, hence why it’s beyond distinction of “pitted against” or not pitted against,  even my attempt to convey it falls short.  Look at the cosmos via the sky from your computer,  and tell me if it is pitted against something.  Although our brains may make pitted arguments about the sky , is it really so? How do you divide it in half?

A child can ask a parent something of which it cannot understand, and the parrot back what was said, without understanding any of how why it is correct, true, or right.

And age is relevant because according to long term medical studies that are credible, our brains don’t fully mature and develope until 25-30,  with an margin of error of 5-7.  Margin may be slightly off in that I reviewed that material years ago.  And I asked because it makes a difference in understanding in general, in discernment, in experience, in life,  that’s why.  So I was checking.

The US isn’t keen on respecting their elders as a whole (generalization), but there is wisdom in it.


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 01:57 PM)


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OfflineHappySloth
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26591156 - 04/10/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I know that I was born and will die (assuming this isn't a simulation), but I am not "one" with anything.




Do you not breath in the oxygen that plants excrete in order to survive?

Where did you even come from if you are not connected to anything else?

How are you even alive if you are not one with nature?  Do you not breath?


This is almost hilarious to me to see people in such denial, such belief in the illusion of seperation.  :lol:


Maya is good.


Please stop breathing and tell me you are not one with anything :lol:


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: HappySloth]
    #26591174 - 04/10/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HappySloth said:
Quote:

I know that I was born and will die (assuming this isn't a simulation), but I am not "one" with anything.




Do you not breath in the oxygen that plants excrete in order to survive?

Where did you even come from if you are not connected to anything else?

How are you even alive if you are not one with nature?  Do you not breath?


This is almost hilarious to me to see people in such denial, such belief in the illusion of seperation.  :lol:


Maya is good.


Please stop breathing and tell me you are not one with anything :lol:




It seems you don't understand what is meant by separateness. I am not "one with nature".


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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* Does God exist? A Poll.
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Anonymous 4,705 38 02/24/05 06:28 AM
by DeadPhan
* I want your opinions/I'm ranting about 50cent, OEV's and religions... thenewuser 1,580 9 04/17/05 07:28 PM
by KingOftheThing
* Gonna buy a truck. Got any opinions? *update...decision made*
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ToTheSummit 2,555 36 03/06/05 12:13 PM
by ToTheSummit
* 11 per cent of the British believed Hitler did not exist
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Annom 5,601 34 04/04/22 07:14 PM
by Amanita86
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by niteowl
* Your opinion please. i_rage_against 733 11 04/19/05 02:21 AM
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* Opinions needed !!!!
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JettaJay 2,120 28 12/29/04 10:52 PM
by Supernova

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