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OfflineJohn in WI
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how does Trich get in to bulk?
    #26590884 - 04/10/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I've been struggling with contamination problems since fall. This last grow was a severe dissappointment. I pulled every stop in terms of only using the very best grain jars, testing the grain on agar to make sure it was not .
contaminated.  washing down the shoeboxes with bleach and alcohol. 

I pasturized the bulk substrate (coir/verm with a bit of bat guano and coffee grounds, and straw).  The bulk, I put into oven bags at a little over field capacity, and placed in the oven for 2.5 hours.  I measured the interior temperature with a meat thermometer.  It should have had at least 1.5hr at over 150.

I'm truly at a loss what happened here.  I suspect it is the substrate that, for whatever reason, didn't pasturize properly.

After reading several posts on here, I see that some people oven pasturize for 4, 5, even 6 hours.  I was under the impression that more was actually not better.  That 170F for a prolonged period, would indeed sterilize the bulk, not just pasturize it.

I got some advice from a more experienced grower that I should ditch the additives, and go back to coir/verm, and leave it at that. Still, this is annoying.  Commercial growers use all kinds of agricultural waste with success.

Anyway, the trich is either coming in from the bulk itself (ie, in the straw, coir, verm, or guano), or it's floating in from the air.

I'm working in a space that has never had mycology going on there.  No pets, clean place. I took every precaution I can think of.

I'm annoyed, and I need to figure it out.  Where would I start?  Double the pasturization time from 2 to 4 hours maybe? 

Thanks for any ideas. This has been a drag. Everythin goes smoothly, the shits the bed in the very last step....


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: John in WI] * 1
    #26590912 - 04/10/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, use coir/verm and you don't need to pasteurize it at all. Those additives mostly just increase the contamination risk. I don't want to discourage you from experimenting, but it's best to get some growths under your hands first before doing that, otherwise you don't even have a sample to compare your experiments to.

Coir/verm are tried and true methods. People are pushing insane amounts on those forums using straight coir or coir/verm. If additives were really that valuable, they would probably switch to that.


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OfflineSockadin
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: poisoned]
    #26591029 - 04/10/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Your bat guano needs to be sterilized. And why the fuck are you using bat guano? Covid19 man!


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Offlinemetaphoric
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26591054 - 04/10/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In my experience and also from what I've read, if you are triching out before first flush its because of dirty spawn.

How do you inoculate your jars?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: metaphoric]
    #26591110 - 04/10/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

metaphoric said:
In my experience and also from what I've read, if you are triching out before first flush its because of dirty spawn.

How do you inoculate your jars?




That’s a pretty good assessment for coir/verm but coffee grounds in particular are a magnet for contamination, straw has to be done just so, and I don’t know much about bat guano but any poo needs careful attention.

Trich does float around most places and gets mixed in when you spawn and it either gets a hold or it doesn’t depending on several factors


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Offlinemetaphoric
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26591293 - 04/10/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah good points. I'd be interested in seeing this guy do a grow with the same spawn in just coir/verm. If you do try that John please be sure to post results here!


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:mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:
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:mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: metaphoric]
    #26591366 - 04/10/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for all the thoughts, guys. 


After my contam problems started, I carefully re-transfered the starting agar cultures 2 more times.  I think inoculated pint jars of grain with agar. Then g2g this to 1qt and 2qt jars.

I used a mixed grain substrate.  I used oats, using the Oats tek.  As it was cooling, I prepared popcorn, using the popcorn tek.  Then just mixed them (roughly 50-50) with a bit of gypsum added to ensure it was hydrated, but without standing water anywhere. 

It was all carried out in a SAB.  I did it correctly--with a cotton sheet in the bottom that I moistened with 10% bleach. Misting the air inside with bleach, then lysol.  Flaming the scalpel in a butane torch to glowing....

I think the cultures are fine.  I shake the grain masters, then let them recover 1 more day. Just to make sure their is nothing nasty hiding in them.  The agar cultures look good, the pints were PCed 75 minutes at 15psi.

As I mentioned--I was successful at least a dozen times before.  I'm no "expert", but I'm not a newb either.  Chemist by training (PhD), I have attention to detail, and an understanding of how this is supposed to ideally work.

Anyway, I have some other grain jars going right now. They are looking good, and colonizing quickly.  It's a drag, but none of the stores are open locally, so I will have to shop online for coir and verm. 

I think it's a good suggestion. Remove all the variables I can, strip it down to the most basic and foolproof.  Then maybe in the future step it back up.

I just don't think it's the grain spawn itself.  Because if it was (and I've seen this before), it would be dramatic.  You see this kind of granular material in the jar. Then, within a day the white turns to green...  I do shake the jars at about 30%. If it was inoculated with Trich, and I shook it, the entire jar would go to shit very quickly.  I've never had a "little bit" of trich. I have it, or I don't have it.

Anyway, I think you guys make some good point. I'll strip it down. Ultimately, the fungi is extracting nutrients mostly from the grain, not the bulk substrate anyway.

It seems like a good plan--remove the variables. and if that doesn't work, hang it up I think. 

What a pain!  Last year, I was using all forms of recycled material to success.  Including bedding from a dairy farm (cow poop and straw), mixed with a bit of coir and verm...  With proper pasturization, I can't imagine why this isn't working.  But it's not. The shit is coming from someplace, it isn't getting their by magic. 

anyway, live and learn. I'll strip it back down, and re-read the coir/verm teks and just go from there.  I lost something along the way.


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Offlinemetaphoric
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: John in WI]
    #26591601 - 04/10/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It sounds like you do a lot of g2g. How often do you start from clean masters? I ran into a problem a while back where I g2g'd a bacterial jar and it messed a lot of shit up for me.


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:mushroom:                  :mushroom2:                :mushroom:
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:mushroom:      :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:      :mushroom:
:mushroom::cookiemonster: BEHOLD :elmo::mushroom:
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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: metaphoric]
    #26591888 - 04/10/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I only go 1 generation g2g.  I've been knocking up 1pt jars with agar wedges, then using that to inoculate larger jars.    It seemed like a safe bet--if something goes south, you're only out 1pint.

Also, they are easier to handle in my SAB. 

The hope was, I would harvest some shrooms, print them, and start over again on agar.  This is my 4th generation from spores, I think. I'm hoping over time I can really zoom in on genetics that are ideal for my particular methods. Not unlike my working on heirloom/landrace vegetables.  I have heard you can run into problems with bacteria, and also senecence if you g2g over and over again. Just like transfering on agar over and over... 

I think I'm going to follow the sage advice, and step back and try with just plain coir/verm. Maybe a bit of calcium carbonate, lime, and gypsum, but nothing organic in there (manure, straw, etc).  Really focus on doing the tubs in a clean place--a freshly cleaned bathroom.  Lysol the shit out of the air, even wear a Tyvek painter's suit.  I just need to break this streak.  Driving me nuts!!


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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: John in WI] * 1
    #26591988 - 04/10/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Please keep this thread updated with your next grow!!

Also, just curious why you go from spores instead of just cloning tissue from your favorite fruits of you're interested in narrowing genetics?


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:mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:
:mushroom:                  :mushroom2:                :mushroom:
:mushroom:            :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:            :mushroom:
:mushroom:      :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:      :mushroom:
:mushroom::cookiemonster: BEHOLD :elmo::mushroom:
:mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: metaphoric]
    #26592606 - 04/11/20 02:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I have those cultures too. 
I was growing years back in grad school. When I closed up, to move to NY, I printed a bunch of caps to have a supply for when I got back to it.  5 years later, my (poorly stored) spore prints needed to be resurrected.  I germinated a lot of agar plates, did a few transfers, selected the rhizomorphic bits...

After my first successful grow, I cloned some of the best early fruits of the 3 strains I was working with.  I then made a spore print of the 3 on top of each other. 

I'm very interested in "landrace" breeds.  The breeds of plants, animals, etc that come as the result of sort of haphazard breeding.  Taking very diffent, totally unrelated individuals and crossing them, to try and produce unique and well suited individuals. 

I realize for production growing, this is the longest, slowest possible way.  Back in grad school, I would LC clones, and go for maximum speed and harvest.  Today as an old man, I'm intrested in the craft itself.  I haven't had a successful grow in months--but it really doesn't matter, I have plenty from the last one to keep me going for many more months! 

anyway, in order to produce a landrace, or even ultimately a new strain of some kind, it requires producing crosses, selecting, producing more crosses, selecting...  It's just a little pet hobby/project.  Which on agar is easy, but without fruiting, you don't really know if the resulting strains are shit, acceptable, or amazing.  Until it runs it's course, you just can't know that.

I need to get this contam issue under control so I can proceed with that.

But yes, for any sort of production, that's the way to do it (IMO).  That, or clone--->agar---->grain---->g2g     

I'll have to check my notes, but I actually think these cultures came from extracting bits of grain and putting them on agar and reselecting


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: John in WI]
    #26592679 - 04/11/20 04:03 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For what you're wanting to do, you should probably go

clone->agar->grain->spore->agar->grain->clone


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: how does Trich get in to bulk? [Re: poisoned]
    #26604810 - 04/16/20 04:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes--in my effort to make sure i was using clean cultures, I've done numerous a2a transfers.  My project started just about a year ago, and I can't imagine in that time it's become senescent?  But still--ideally, I would like to get some successful grows, this time make good, VERY CLEAN prints, and carefully store them as insurance against this kind of thing. Then probably start from zero again. Spores on agar, sector them out, etc.  Nice, clean, fresh genetics to work with.

First things first--have to get some fruits before Mean Green shows up. 

I ordered more coir from Chewy.com, I have a big industrial sized sack of verm.  I'm going back to the most basic approach, a basic coir/verm mix, with some gypsum, lime, and calcium carbonate.  That should work--the coir is already resistant, and with a bit of a basic pH, it should be even more so.

I'll get this figured out. I think I was altering too many variables at once.  It's time to back up, re-do what already has demonstrated to work, and go from there.  I appreciate the thoughts, I will document it, and share for other people in the same boat. FIghting these damn contamination problems...


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