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Thanatos10
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tyrannicalrex said: I have had the universe figured out on a dose of mushrooms, but I forget what I learned over night/after sleeping. I have to keep going back to learn, over, and over again. I'm not complaining either, lol. I'm with thanatos on this that the truth doesn't really matter as all will be revealed (or not) upon ones death bead. Then you, I, and everyone will know, but the trick is you have to "die" 1st. The cosmic joke, lol. I just have a good time, try to make people happy, and don't fuck with anyone, and be kind, giving, and thoughtful as much as possible. Enjoy life people!
I think you misunderstand what I meant by that.
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Can’t say I’ve ever felt “oneness” or had a NDE on psychedelics but I had a fleeting thought on shrooms once about how everything is a cycle I had the knowledge of it one hundred percent but the thought slipped away like when you wake up and try to remember a cool dream
NDEs are also just brain chemistry/neuroscience. People think them proof that consciousness survives death but it’s nothing like that.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
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In short I had experiences like what you are mentioning and it is hard to describe in the same way it is to describe any sensory data. But I recognized it for what it was after the fact and don’t make claims on reality based off it.
The feeling of oneness is just a feeling, it means nothing. It was the same for me with solipsism, idealism, god, the self, etc. They were all just feelings but that’s about it. I don’t write stories about them to make it more than what it is.
To put word as close as possible to what I felt it would be apathy. Sure it was “oneness” but with that came great apathy not love. If you felt love of joy then it wasn’t it, that’s still “ego” from what I’m told.
After the whole bit I had to wonder why anyone would seek such a state where they didn’t care about anyone else.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
Edited by Thanatos10 (04/10/20 10:19 AM)
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
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Probably, but I'm cool with what I know. I don't have to know details or truths to every single fucking thing that crosses my mind. I just enjoy life.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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* Wow-ie, this thing is long and hard to edit in its entirety on my iPad, please forgive any hiccups, and the fuck ups 
Than, I get where your coming from, but do you? You keep responding and refuting, but your missing the point entirely. It is for those interested, I would dare to call them Yogi’s, Yogini’s, Mystics, those who find their intellects thoroughly challenged by subsuming such a view, especially during high doses psychedelic self experimentation or advanced meditation techniques.
Now about your post about my post! Haha,
The truth of existence? A physics standpoint? I never claimed to, nor did I describe, much of anything in terms of the study physics. Or claim it had much of anything to do with it, instead the approach was simplistic and basically philosophy with a touch a medicine. Why would I explain philosophically phenomenological events in terms of a physical science,? Especially when mainly dealing with a specific known altered state induced by psychoactive hallucinogenic substances? That requires a base understanding of medicine and an introduction to the relevant SnM courses to describe. Please expound and illustrate the physical mechanisms of being aware of mind. I’ll wait for it, or for any “science” you proclaim to know how it does not work - you need to know how it works to know what doesn’t, a blanketing general statement won’t cut it for this, you may be trying to escape nihilism, but you’ve retreated into another extreme.
The proposed view here is not an objective philosophical exposition. It’s simply to illuminate us who share psychedelic experience by my own unique and personal experience. Anyways..continuing with the banter and stick. It is Experiential truth couched in a story for the sake and goodness of Myself and others. As it deals with dimensions of experience, your completely missing the boat when picking it apart like an objective philosophical and or scientific exposition , like some treaty of absolute infallibility on the nature of objective reality. That’s not what’s at play, it’s experience. Physical “points” are harped upon when needed to expedite any crucial explanations that require more understanding than is usual for a forum of this kind, and even then it is done simplistically; nothing More.
Do you see anywhere in my post where I am even subtly trying to calculate work? Am I disrupting Newton’s laws anywhere, disputing them? Am I showing an alternate way to write equations to differentiate various kinetic energy potentials in a mechanical system? How about momentum? not even remotely.
I make it plain as day, that I am referring to 2 dimensions of human experience, both being illusory in nature due to the nature of the structure and function of the makeup of the organism that they occur in and by.
Your even sorta close to my point when you say “it’s just chemical” ... “ no non duality or consciousness, just the brain”. The brain is just the brain, but it’s also the brain in a body, in population, in an environment, part of that system and up and on in complexity in scale. So while a = a in syllogistic logic, it is not just that only overall. Keep that in mind.
Your words. However, consciousness is a faculty of mind, mind is an emergent property of the brain. And, in that sense...we come full circle to this, although these things - the dualistic state of ordinary mind and its consciousness and non dual awareness and the types of consciousness it can present in. They are both Absent in reality - can’t be found - but they are perceptible via awareness of the individual.
The finer point, about how the brain itself cannot distinguish between unreal and real, yet this known yet unique and rare phenomena , a play of dual-non dual awareness known in mystical experience, has special experiential implications to the human being, in that it elucidates the nature of mind as illusory - like a magical illusion that by default we are under by virtue of having a body with its ensuing organ system and its particular attributes etc. while most user cannot describe the ineffable they borrow terms and phrases to do so, which when lined up with the standard written and historical context of such a borrowed word, it does not hold up. Those individuals are brave for trying, even if they come off foolish. Upon reintegration with normal Goldilocks mode, the personal ego reintegrated - or the brain in homeostasis, reinterprets and changes the immense sensory data within that altered state, even the memory of it - that seems the usual case. But it doesn’t have the be.
The unreal world and environment and playing of an illusory dream at night when you go to bed can have real, profound effects on an individuals psyche and body when both asleep and after waking up, the brain - cannot tell the difference until after the fact. During, you a real beguiled, it’s normally not tilll after you wake up that you realize your an idiot who was technically just hallucinating in your bed at night...if you have the mindfulness to even remember and realize that’s what’s happening.
Using this piece of insight to , in order to be effectively released from the conceptual cage (mental) that the brains own structure and function is genetically coded to express structurally and functionally for work in areas of, sensory stimulation filtering, discrimination, boundary, compartmentalism, a experience in its totality (not to be confused with the concept of existence) into a default network (physical) from which to naturally operate out of as the ordinary normal state we all share. The distinction between relative and absolute is a delusive function of the intellect, and in reality the two truths cannot be parted.
With the experientially based conviction that the entirety of our experience is like an apparition, or dream, magic show, etc we can begin to abandon the metastatic tendrils of belief in concrete materialism and slowly abandon the process of egoic intellectual deconstruction that has brought us to this point. The brains anatomy-structure, reflects its function to essentially to impute dualism of experience once it has sufficiently developed, and so the emergent dualism of subject and object that particularizes and concretizes specific elements of our experience can be known (through premise and theme throughout my last post combined with an actual understanding of it) as no longer valid, so like a dream upon waking, all our fictive imputations upon the openness of reality dissolve. Our opinions and preferences become a part of the universal, intersubjective, delusion and the only reality is watever lies beyond ideational concepts and constructs, and 'the interpretive and selective functions of cognitive mind. No formulation of language can do it justice after phenomena has been experienced as illusory evanescence.
Non duality is the nature of reality, and relative truth is the ignorant delusion subsumed by it. I do not expect you to understand, I don’t know your education, personal study, or much about you, but you are quick to point out errors that aren’t even there in order to confirm your own bias, my story of my personal experience in a state that is ineffable, like I said, is a story. But that does not take away from it , and it’s been the culmination of a life goal of over 15 years, excuse me if I dumb it down for you and others and borrow from various religious terminologies and their practices, while also using poetic language on an online psilocybin fungi enthusiasts forum.
But don’t claim to know, what you so obviously don’t, and then not be able to even back it with a well thought out post.
Let try ending it with a different iteration of the last post. Any pointing out of the of the nature of mind is delusory, and attempt to speak or point out the nature of reality is speculation. However, if you have experienced it for yourself, which btw it’s not a contest, but you make it clear that you haven’t, and thus - you are in the dark on that one without even being aware of it.
It’s fine that you claim to not care, or that you claim to know that which you do not. You have an answer as equally as delusive as mine but worse, because I use it all. The science, the religion, personal experience, etc. without morality, wisdom, and discernment, you might as well be quoting from Wikipedia.
*** I’ve yet to reread or edit this post’s writing to a level of satisfaction, for the time being, please over look grammatical and structural errors***
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 12:26 PM)
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HappySloth



Registered: 01/24/19
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I feel a little sad that people have forgoten oneness and now believe its just a material thing in the brain.
I feel like you've forgotten where you came from and what you are.
You were born and you will die. We are not seperate. Seperation is an illusion. Maybe it will take your "matter" being in the ground before you remember that you are one with this reality.
Can you not feel it? That you are alive, you are awareness, you are life, you are the universe, you are god, expressing itself here now, experiencing your creation.
Look into the eyes of an animal and tell me that you can't see your self looking back at you?
Edited by HappySloth (04/10/20 12:20 PM)
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Thanatos10
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Non duality is the nature of reality, and relative truth is the ignorant delusion subsumed by it. I do not expect you to understand, I don’t know your education, personal study, or much about you, but you are quick to point out errors that aren’t even there in order to confirm your own bias, my story of my personal experience in a state that is ineffable, like I said, is a story. But that does not take away from it , and it’s been the culmination of a life goal of over 15 years, excuse me if I dumb it down for you and others and borrow from various religious terminologies and their practices, while also using poetic language on an online psilocybin fungi enthusiasts forum.
Except it isn't reality is in a sense dualistic and there is a degree of separateness with everything. Relative truth isn't some ignorant delusion either since all we have is relative truth. Your state isn't ineffable is already been explained, all you have done is just ascribe more to it that it is. It does take away from it when you realize what it actually is.
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Please expound and illustrate the physical mechanisms of being aware of mind.
What you refer to as mind is really just all the brain. Thoughts, personality, the sense of oneness or separateness. Each of those is triggered by stimulation or suppression of different areas of the brain.
Like...you are trying to posit some sort of absolute that exists when all you really have is your own sensory experience of a particular point in time and trying to make claims about reality from that. It's easy to see why such an endeavor is doomed to fail. Nothing you said really breaks materialism because it can all be explained by it. Your experience can literally be reduced to brain activity and nothing more. you haven't woken from the dream you are still in it.
You say the brain fabricates duality but I think it's more likely that it recognizes duality instead. Also what's to say the brain isn't fabricating everything that you have described? I mean you keep trying to advance some notion is "beyond" the 'mind' and 'brain' when the whole basis of that experience is a product of the two and your body. Every critique against materialism can really just be lobbed back at you.
I get that such an experience is profound and intense, I do. But that doesn't mean it means anything or implies anything at all. Everything you described has a materialist cause to it so there is no reason to make it anymore than that.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Show me where, with an example, with any form of matter or anything of your choosing - show me how it evades the law of interdependent origination? Give an example of the separation you mention. Does it negate the law?
Find one thing, in the universe, that you can personally verify, that upends my proposition. I will happily admit I am wrong about Non duality being the nature of reality.
On materialism, whatever the word materialism points to in reality, material, can you tell me it’s composite. All compounded things are composed of aggregates, aggregates composed of aggregates, onwards till we can no longer measure.
Is it your leap of faith and belief that if we could use microscopy to, hypothetically for this argument, magnify infinitely, that we would come across an infinite number of smaller particles for infinity - that were novel in its structure and function, indicating newer more - or less complex particles etc?
Or is it that, if able to do so, we would eventually stop at some final materia primoris?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 12:39 PM)
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Thanatos10
Stranger



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Quote:
HappySloth said: I feel a little sad that people have forgoten oneness and now believe its just a material thing in the brain.
I feel like you've forgotten where you came from and what you are.
You were born and you will die. We are not seperate. Seperation is an illusion. Maybe it will take your "matter" being in the ground before you remember that you are one with this reality.
Can you not feel it? That you are alive, you are awareness, you are life, you are the universe, you are god, expressing itself here now, experiencing your creation.
Look into the eyes of an animal and tell me that you can't see your self looking back at you?

I think you need to remember that you are body, just like I am a body. Separation isn't an illusion it's part of reality, even quantum physics supports that.
I like that people saying "forget" implies it was known to begin with. Or maybe it was something believed at the time and then discarded with new information.
I know that I was born and will die (assuming this isn't a simulation), but I am not "one" with anything. You are mistaken to think the universe some monolithic entity when it isn't.
Am I alive? What does it mean to be "alive"? What can we call "alive" and why? I am not awareness, I am a body just like you and everyone else on here. I am not "life" though I may be alive. I am not God, that has to be the funniest and most conceited line I have ever heard. A God who made life and existence must be a sadist of some kind I'll tell you what.
When I look into the eyes of an animal I see another life form, not myself because they are not me. What happens to them doesn't happen to me. If they get hurt I feel no pain, they can be sick an I will be well.
Knowing how flawed sensory experience is I cannot put any stock in mystical experiences of oneness nor draw any conclusions from that. They say it's like waking from a dream, but if I had a dollar for every time I heard that I could pay my student loans and retire.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Show me where, with an example, with any form of matter or anything of your choosing - show me how it evades the law of interdependent origination? Give an example of the separation you mention. Does it negate the law?
Find one thing, in the universe, that you can personally verify, that upends my proposition. I will happily admit I am wrong about Non duality being the nature of reality.
Quantum physics where particles can pop in and out of existence without any relationship to each other. In fact much of quantum physics disproves nonduality and it disproves the "Singularity" hypothesis for the origin of the universe. At the macro level there is "interdependence" and causality, but at the quantum level all that breaks down.
Also interdependence isn't "oneness" since it's still a collection of individual parts, not a monolithic entity.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
Edited by Thanatos10 (04/10/20 12:38 PM)
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,562
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Any observable relationship*
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Thanatos10
Stranger



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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
#26591015 - 04/10/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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PatrickKn said: Any observable relationship*
Not necessarily, and it does in a sense debunk the "getting something from nothing" crack that most people have. But you are making an assumption there is "Something more" when we don't have evidence for that. But you are still thinking in terms of macro reality, you have to junk that when studying quantum physics (as I said causality breaks down). Conservation of energy applies in macro physics but in micro it doesn't if the changes occur in a short enough time.
I mean granted when I say they pop in and out very quickly but it's still fascinating. It's weird how what applies in one "World" doesn't in the "other".
EDIT: Also I know people might try to worm in quantum fields to appeal to a sense of oneness but it actually doesn't imply that. I asked several experts in the field and they all came back with the same answer "no" and that it's a misunderstanding of quantum physics (to be honest the whole field suffers from being misunderstood by the public).
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
Edited by Thanatos10 (04/10/20 12:50 PM)
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,562
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#26591016 - 04/10/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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That something doesn't have an observable relationship does not imply that it has a relationship we can't see, merely that we cannot observe a relationship. To say that there is no relationship at all is more of an assumption.
Not arguing against anything you're saying really though otherwise.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
#26591017 - 04/10/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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yesss....
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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]
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Show me where, with an example, with any form of matter or anything of your choosing - show me how it evades the law of interdependent origination? Give an example of the separation you mention. Does it negate the law?
Find one thing, in the universe, that you can personally verify, that upends my proposition. I will happily admit I am wrong about Non duality being the nature of reality.
Quantum physics where particles can pop in and out of existence without any relationship to each other. In fact much of quantum physics disproves nonduality and it disproves the "Singularity" hypothesis for the origin of the universe. At the macro level there is "interdependence" and causality, but at the quantum level all that breaks down.
Also interdependence isn't "oneness" since it's still a collection of individual parts, not a monolithic entity.
The “singularity”.. who is taking about that as an origin of the universe? And what do you know of the macrocosm or microcosm besides what you have glimpsed from a secondary source? Quantum theory, is not proven, he’ll it’s had little chance to be disprove because so far the majority of its work is in theoretical practice for when an established (meaning , it has worked thus far in our limited capacity- but than it stops working- the equations that is) theory’s’ primary working equations can no longer work within an acceptable parameter in terms of real life applications in regards to its precision and accuracy in real applications.
What you speak of, is no more than make believe , but you don’t even realize it. It would be one thing if you had a degree in quantum mechanics and could say anything other than “ according to quantum physics a particle can ...get this... pop in...and pop out of existence”
You don’t know what particle they’re referring to, nor do you know how or which mathematical equations are being used to measure what you term “pop” - “in” or “out” of “existence”.
Also, tell me how you used quantum physics to figure out via the scientific method, with empirical data to back up your claim, and some colleagues with the academic phds to reproduce the experiment and got similar results, - that interdependent origination breaks down at the microcosmic level?
Because apparently if that’s what you found out and know, and not just believe, than thermodynamics is royally fucked big time.
Ps. What am I positing that is more ? Interdependent origination holds with general relativity, and with Newton’s laws... maybe I’m just stupid because I didn’t graduate with a degree in quantum mechanics
Enlighten me,
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 12:57 PM)
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Shenmue
Dark Lord of the Sith
Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 2,514
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#26591033 - 04/10/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.
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Thanatos10
Stranger



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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: PatrickKn]
#26591036 - 04/10/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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PatrickKn said: That something doesn't have an observable relationship does not imply that it has a relationship we can't see, merely that we cannot observe a relationship. To say that there is no relationship at all is more of an assumption.
Not arguing against anything you're saying really though otherwise.
I mean I have to grant that. True it could be something that we can't see, but it could also be nothing (which would be far weirder to me really).
I'm just kind of sensitive to "god of the gaps" type arguments where my ignorance is someone else's proof. "I don't know" just means "I don't know", doesn't make your answer anymore correct.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
Stranger



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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Shenmue]
#26591039 - 04/10/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Shenmue said: Intelligent people usually end up realizing that life is completely meaningless. It's kind of a side effect and curse of knowing to much. Unfortunately stupid people need religion to get by in life. The average person can't handle too much reality.
That's a common trap actually. The "curse of intellect" is usually just something people say to justify their misery. I mean sure life is meaningless but why point that out and why tell others about it?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Patrick, the point is that something unobservable would have to have no relationship to anything at all. If you can find an observable or can exemplify an unobserved composite thing that has on relationship to anything in the cosmos, my hats off to you. If you cannot see why you cant, your both in need of help.
Current established scientific practice and theory shows, that is impossible.
I’m not positing religion, nor superstition, nor out of this world fringe philosophy, or against actual science.
So were are you guys pulling this shit out of?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/10/20 01:05 PM)
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Shenmue
Dark Lord of the Sith
Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 2,514
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Shenmue]
#26591047 - 04/10/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Whats your opinion? [Re: Shenmue]
#26591051 - 04/10/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I just want to know how you will bypass hundreds of years of men smarter than us all, and the scientific practices, theories, and laws they helped develop along the way. Bio, Chem, Physics. That’s what I know, I’ll stick to what I know.
And that wraps it up for here today.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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