|
turbulentflow
Probably sober



Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 197
|
Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? 2
#26585353 - 04/08/20 12:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think we all know that one of the greatest debates of our time is the debate over the merits of capitalism. Its proponents point to the rapid progress of human society under its control, and claim it's a system founded on individual liberty and mutual benefit. Its detractors, however, say that it's a system that primarily serves the elites, and argue that the degree of systemic control afforded to the rich means they're permitted to continually consolidate power at the expense of the working class.
With the rise in automation and the transition of first world economies towards service and away from material production, this question is more important than ever. Will the fruits of mankind's technological advancements continually be hoarded by a class of cyberpunk elites and megacorporations, growing in power to the point where social change is completely impossible, forcing the rest of humanity to serve them forever? Will the workers unite and overthrow their buergois overlords, installing a glorious robocommunist utopia? Or, will the ongoing need for innovation and entrepreneurship prevent the entrenchment of a capitalist elite, allowing for constant class mobility despite changing times?
To clarify, by "capitalism" I mean the system wherein the economy is controlled semi-democratically through the investment of capital into ventures which provide perpetual revenue to their owners proportional to the capital they invest, not to the amount of labor they provide.
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow]
#26585578 - 04/08/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think it matters, and I reject the premise that capitalism is what gave us a bunch of good things. Same with communism.
People love to talk about how great capitalism is, but why is it that capitalism was only great after WWII? Was it maybe because of strong worker protections? Labor unions? The fact that literally every other industrial area on the planet just got bombed back to the stone age? I think it's mainly the last one.
We also routinely ignore the fact that humans have literally always progressed, until the current generation. People have, with the exception of millennials, always been able to expect to live better than their parents. The system in charge doesn't matter, the progress will happen no matter what.
People have a very narrow focus on existence. We think about the next 50-70 years, but we don't think about 200 years from now. Things will be about the same.
Humanity, much like everything else, is cyclical. We have a generation that is exploited, then we have a generation that goes to war and kills each other, and we have a generation that rebuilds. Finally, we have a generation that collects the profits at the expense of their fellow man again.
We're in a cycle of exploitation right now. Everyone that is currently working age is getting fucked. Gen X and millennials will spend their lives being exploited, and that's just how it is. Next generation is gonna be a war generation, and they'll kill each other over some ideological bullshit while swapping stories about how they're the real men, while millennials and gen X were whimpering pussies. Then they catch one to the face. Whoever comes after them, and inherits a war torn world, will likely unify against such violence and create a much more egalitarian society. And four generations from now, the people will once again value their "rugged individualism", and another generation will step up to get fucked in the ass their entire lives.
And so the cycle continues.
Edited by Kryptos (04/08/20 08:42 AM)
|
living_failure
unworthy



Registered: 06/13/19
Posts: 352
Loc: spain, madrid
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26586138 - 04/08/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said: I don't think it matters, and I reject the premise that capitalism is what gave us a bunch of good things. Same with communism.
People love to talk about how great capitalism is, but why is it that capitalism was only great after WWII? Was it maybe because of strong worker protections? Labor unions? The fact that literally every other industrial area on the planet just got bombed back to the stone age? I think it's mainly the last one.
We also routinely ignore the fact that humans have literally always progressed, until the current generation. People have, with the exception of millennials, always been able to expect to live better than their parents. The system in charge doesn't matter, the progress will happen no matter what.
People have a very narrow focus on existence. We think about the next 50-70 years, but we don't think about 200 years from now. Things will be about the same.
Humanity, much like everything else, is cyclical. We have a generation that is exploited, then we have a generation that goes to war and kills each other, and we have a generation that rebuilds. Finally, we have a generation that collects the profits at the expense of their fellow man again.
We're in a cycle of exploitation right now. Everyone that is currently working age is getting fucked. Gen X and millennials will spend their lives being exploited, and that's just how it is. Next generation is gonna be a war generation, and they'll kill each other over some ideological bullshit while swapping stories about how they're the real men, while millennials and gen X were whimpering pussies. Then they catch one to the face. Whoever comes after them, and inherits a war torn world, will likely unify against such violence and create a much more egalitarian society. And four generations from now, the people will once again value their "rugged individualism", and another generation will step up to get fucked in the ass their entire lives.
And so the cycle continues.
Since America invented the nuclear weapons we can no longer have big scale wars. Well, we can, but the damage will be at the level of planetary catastrophe.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: living_failure]
#26586194 - 04/08/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
We're gonna have a nuclear war, or at least a nuclear attack, and it will happen within our lifetimes (assuming you're under 40 and reasonably healthy). If I was a betting man, I'd actually put it in the near future. Mid 20s, early 2030s. Probably a few years after the current economic depression ends.
Machine guns gave us the War to end all Wars, and we would never again allow for that sort of mass slaughter to occur. Until WWII, 30 years later.
Nuclear weapons will be used, for the same reason that machine guns were used again and again. They are effective. The only thing that stopped us before was (a) lack of good targets and (b) living memory of the fearsome destruction caused by even a relatively low yield nuke.
(a) I expect that a war will break out between the US and China in the near future as China continues to pull ahead worldwide, and the US will rely on our best diplomatic tools: the Marines. This will give us a good juicy target.
(b) of the people that know the destruction caused by nuclear weapons, there are maybe a dozen still alive. Everything else is second or thirdhand knowledge. At some point, somebody is gonna wanna see it for themselves. Sorta like how trumpy dropped a MOAB just to be able to say he dropped the biggest bomb.
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,361
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 32 minutes, 11 seconds
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26586220 - 04/08/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think we can win a war with China without destroying the earth. I also question whether either country can afford to sever it's economic ties with the other. I think we will just go on fighting proxy wars.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26586229 - 04/08/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It's an unstable equilibrium.
We've been at equilibrium for a while, but China is now starting to pull ahead. At the same time, the US is falling behind. At a certain point (accelerated by trade disruptions, since it decouples the economies), it will be a net benefit to cease economic ties for one side, which will significantly hurt the other side.
The mindset of American exceptionalism means that Americans will likely react violently when confronted by the fact that they've lost to China, and a a leader like diaper donnie would 100% rather end all life on Earth than accept defeat graciously.
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos]
#26586285 - 04/08/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm gonna go with no.
If we define capitalism as the ownership of and authority over business by financial investors rather than the workers, then what incentive do investors have to keep on labor when automation comes in? Machines don't strike, ask for medical leave without penalty of being fired, or better healthcare options. Besides the "Goodwill of Man" argument (which I don't think holds much merit) I don't think there is any real incentive. Therefore it stands that when automation comes in-> workers go out -> wealth and power becomes more stratified ->we pave a smooth path for brutal neo-feudalism or a fascist regime (and yes, I mean a fascist regime where the rule of an elite class is upheld at the expense of an underclass's lives/freedom, save necessary labor.
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
|
Using your definition, the US is already a fascist regime.
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26586444 - 04/08/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah good point Kryptos.
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,270
Last seen: 9 hours, 29 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow] 1
#26586531 - 04/08/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The age of automation happened well before modern regulated capitalism became a thing.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
|
Frank Zappotecorum
Smooth-Brained Mycophagist



Registered: 01/01/17
Posts: 138
Loc: Scamdinavia
Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: christopera]
#26586609 - 04/08/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think the age of automation stopped, also what do you mean by modern regulated capitalism? To be clear I do think there are better protections for workers than in the industrial revolution (there were better protections for the environment too before our idiot-in-chief and his cronies suspended them)
-------------------- What are all these leaves doing in my mouth? I ain't got a lot but peep my Trade list
|
turbulentflow
Probably sober



Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 197
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26586981 - 04/08/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said: I don't think it matters, and I reject the premise that capitalism is what gave us a bunch of good things. Same with communism.
People love to talk about how great capitalism is, but why is it that capitalism was only great after WWII? Was it maybe because of strong worker protections? Labor unions? The fact that literally every other industrial area on the planet just got bombed back to the stone age? I think it's mainly the last one.
We also routinely ignore the fact that humans have literally always progressed, until the current generation. People have, with the exception of millennials, always been able to expect to live better than their parents. The system in charge doesn't matter, the progress will happen no matter what.
Totally agree. I tried to be neutral in my original post, but I think it's rather silly to credit capitalism for industrialization. Socialist countries were able to industrialize just as easily as capitalist ones, and I 100% agree that the main reason the US was so successful was that they were the only country to come out of WWII without being bombed to shit.
Quote:
Kryptos said: People have a very narrow focus on existence. We think about the next 50-70 years, but we don't think about 200 years from now. Things will be about the same.
Humanity, much like everything else, is cyclical. We have a generation that is exploited, then we have a generation that goes to war and kills each other, and we have a generation that rebuilds. Finally, we have a generation that collects the profits at the expense of their fellow man again.
We're in a cycle of exploitation right now. Everyone that is currently working age is getting fucked. Gen X and millennials will spend their lives being exploited, and that's just how it is. Next generation is gonna be a war generation, and they'll kill each other over some ideological bullshit while swapping stories about how they're the real men, while millennials and gen X were whimpering pussies. Then they catch one to the face. Whoever comes after them, and inherits a war torn world, will likely unify against such violence and create a much more egalitarian society. And four generations from now, the people will once again value their "rugged individualism", and another generation will step up to get fucked in the ass their entire lives.
And so the cycle continues.
Well, I certainly agree that humans will remain human, bringing along with them all the usual baggage that comes along with that, but I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of history as a series of cycles of exploitation, conflict, and regrowth. I think that you can definitely say that the past 200 or so years have followed that pattern pretty well, but I think that's largely a coincidence. I don't think war necessarily causes economic growth, and I don't think economic growth and exploitation are mutually exclusive.
True, war has often been a driving force for technological development, and the genesis of most of the world's largest empires. However, I think the explosion of knowledge and cultural development we saw post-WWII had more to do with the fact that WWII occurred smack dab in the middle of the industrial revolution. Sure, the war doubtlessly had a massive impact on shaping the societies that formed but I don't think it was at all necessary for the subsequent period of massive growth. Maybe it was necessary in order for the US to so starkly overtake Britain as a world power, but I think human progress would have marched on either way. I mean look at the pre-war period, which was also an era of unprecedented economic and technological development. It seems to me like the war was more an interruption to ongoing development than anything else.
Now, granted, the pre-war period was also a period of massive exploitation, but I'd argue that this exploitation was largely as a result of the massive growth happening at the time, and not, as you postulate, due to a sort of stagnation occurring as a result of previous economic success. Technology drastically changed the methods of production, and for the first time in recent history, we reached a point of societal complexity where agrarian self-subsistence was no longer truly an option for most people, opening the doors to much more severe and systemic forms of exploitation that required the creation of new workers rights movements to combat.
That's a big part of why I asked the question of capitalism in the age of automation in the first place. I think that the rate of technological progress has absolutely exploded in the past few centuries, while our cultural progress has somewhat struggled to keep up. That's also why I'm not a Marxist, for the record, I think Marxist dialectics have already become outdated due to technological development (Engels himself was quoted towards the end of his life as saying he believed technological developments had made the type of revolution he and Marx dreamed of unfeasible, though he was referring more to military technology than the technology of production as I am). But technology has rapidly changed how we produce goods (and, even what those goods are!) and with these massive changes comes a massive potential for exploitation, a potential I personally believe our society is unequipped to handle.
As for how to better structure our society, I must confess I'm rather at a loss...
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
|
Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow] 1
#26587280 - 04/08/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Anarcho-socialism man. 
You shed the detached owning class and the absurdity of the state.
|
christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,270
Last seen: 9 hours, 29 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26587447 - 04/08/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Every single time one of these threads pops up the obvious reality is that OP has no fucking clue how long things have been automated. None.
America (the United States not the continent) would not be what it is today without automation. Well, automation and slavery, but a large part of the industrialized world held slaves at the same time... so... The rest of the world getting bombed out of existence (as Kryptos mentions) is the second reason capitalism marched on, albeit in a regulated fashion (thanks socialism).
I program machines daily. The very machines I program run on the same fucking code that was invented in the 50's at MIT, that very same code base machines parts for rockets, satellites, toaster ovens, you name it. It 3d prints, it runs regular printers, and at its core it's so painfully simple a cat could learn it. If you think there are great advances in automation in these areas you are full of shit. Nothing has changed in 40 years except for the type of jobs surrounding these fields. Those who can program make more than ever, the rest fall behind. But this isn't an automation problem, it's an education problem. Machine programmers are in demand, and instead of trying to be machines, humans could be telling machines what to do. It works much better that way.
For the record, machine automated machines have existed since the late 1800's. The first computer numerical controlled machine was built in 1952. The microprocessor has helped, but machine automated machines have no processor, and many of them continue to run 24/7 today.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
Edited by christopera (04/08/20 09:53 PM)
|
turbulentflow
Probably sober



Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 197
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: christopera] 1
#26587568 - 04/08/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think you realize how short a century really is when we're talking about cultural development. There are registered voters alive today who are old enough remember the invention of the first CNC. Also, with advances in machine learning and artificial intelligence, it seems quite possible that machines will soon be able to program themselves. I also have programming experience, including experience with machine learning specifically, so I'm intimately aware that the human element is still crucial. However, I think you're far too quick to discount the unique situation we find ourselves in with respect to automation.
Yes, automation has been a pressing issue since the dawn of the industrial revolution, but we're reaching a level of technological achievement such that we may no longer require human labor to sustain the material necessities of life. And I think it's certainly worth asking what will happen to humanity after that point.
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
|
turbulentflow
Probably sober



Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 197
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26587572 - 04/08/20 10:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Anarcho-socialism man. 
You shed the detached owning class and the absurdity of the state.
How would that work? I'll admit I haven't really had the chance to read any anarchist theory, but it seems to me that given the intricate and interconnected nature of our modern economy, a functional socialist economy would require quite an extensive bureaucracy, which seems rather contradictory to the notion of anarchy.
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
|
Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow]
#26588632 - 04/09/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
turbulentflow said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Anarcho-socialism man. 
You shed the detached owning class and the absurdity of the state.
How would that work? I'll admit I haven't really had the chance to read any anarchist theory, but it seems to me that given the intricate and interconnected nature of our modern economy, a functional socialist economy would require quite an extensive bureaucracy, which seems rather contradictory to the notion of anarchy.
Tbh, idk. Nevertheless I would think the intricate and growing interconnected nature of the economy would make an excessive and extensive bureaucracy less and less relevant. Maybe that’s just optimism.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: turbulentflow]
#26589203 - 04/09/20 04:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
turbulentflow said: Well, I certainly agree that humans will remain human, bringing along with them all the usual baggage that comes along with that, but I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of history as a series of cycles of exploitation, conflict, and regrowth. I think that you can definitely say that the past 200 or so years have followed that pattern pretty well, but I think that's largely a coincidence. I don't think war necessarily causes economic growth, and I don't think economic growth and exploitation are mutually exclusive.
True, war has often been a driving force for technological development, and the genesis of most of the world's largest empires. However, I think the explosion of knowledge and cultural development we saw post-WWII had more to do with the fact that WWII occurred smack dab in the middle of the industrial revolution. Sure, the war doubtlessly had a massive impact on shaping the societies that formed but I don't think it was at all necessary for the subsequent period of massive growth. Maybe it was necessary in order for the US to so starkly overtake Britain as a world power, but I think human progress would have marched on either way. I mean look at the pre-war period, which was also an era of unprecedented economic and technological development. It seems to me like the war was more an interruption to ongoing development than anything else.
Now, granted, the pre-war period was also a period of massive exploitation, but I'd argue that this exploitation was largely as a result of the massive growth happening at the time, and not, as you postulate, due to a sort of stagnation occurring as a result of previous economic success. Technology drastically changed the methods of production, and for the first time in recent history, we reached a point of societal complexity where agrarian self-subsistence was no longer truly an option for most people, opening the doors to much more severe and systemic forms of exploitation that required the creation of new workers rights movements to combat.
That's a big part of why I asked the question of capitalism in the age of automation in the first place. I think that the rate of technological progress has absolutely exploded in the past few centuries, while our cultural progress has somewhat struggled to keep up. That's also why I'm not a Marxist, for the record, I think Marxist dialectics have already become outdated due to technological development (Engels himself was quoted towards the end of his life as saying he believed technological developments had made the type of revolution he and Marx dreamed of unfeasible, though he was referring more to military technology than the technology of production as I am). But technology has rapidly changed how we produce goods (and, even what those goods are!) and with these massive changes comes a massive potential for exploitation, a potential I personally believe our society is unequipped to handle.
As for how to better structure our society, I must confess I'm rather at a loss...
War necessarily gives economic growth to one group at the direct expense of another group. Used to be, you stabbed someone and stole their shit. Now, you sell a guy a sword and tell them to stab someone.
Technology develops largely independently, because there are only so many people effectively capable of advancing technology at any given time. The amount of funding/societal support matters, but those people are largely like pilots: they don't give a fuck about the money, they just want to fly a plane.
Exploitation is like cancer on an economy. It's caused by a failure of normal regulatory processes, it pops up anywhere in hundreds of different forms, and each one has to be treated differently. Further, the only effective treatment is to cut it out. Sometimes, that's not possible without killing the patient, and that's how you get the Philippines.
These are all individual forces of human life. They intersect, they interact, but they all stand alone. None causes the other, they are all members of the same pantheon.
War lives in a cycle of human lifespan: it sounds great on paper, it's the hell on earth in real life, and it takes a generation to forget.
Technology will always march forward, though it speeds up sometimes.
Exploitation pops up and claims the weakest link.
As far as structuring society, well, Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,472
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 16 hours, 34 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: Kryptos] 2
#26590224 - 04/10/20 05:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Capitalism is an economic system in which the vast majority of people sell their labor in order to afford goods and services.
The “age of automation” implies that a plurality of these people would no longer be able to sell their labor, and as such would not be able to afford goods and services.
OP thinks this is ideal?
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,322
Last seen: 6 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Is Capitalism Good in the Age of Automation? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26590256 - 04/10/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Every economic system people sell their labor.
Capitalism has just figured out a way to make regular people try to fuck each other over in the process.
Hell, just look at the 5g conspiracies. There are people that are happily fucking up internet infrastructure because YouTube told them to. Comcast is probably jizzing themselves thinking about how much money they can save by leaving in place some of the worst internet in the world.
|
|