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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26580814 - 04/05/20 11:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

.  Among the wild cards is the fact that the viruses seem to come out of the horrible conditions in factory farms, and thus as of now it is reasonable to expect more, highly infectious and possibly virulent viruses to emerge.
.  Apparently it is not just "bush meat" as in the case of Aids, that is a source for dangerous, mutations of viruses.
.  The data for this is explained here:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention/?fbclid=IwAR2DI7w9-kteU0RH9jixl7rLUwxgscg4B5AQm9FponpsazQCD3ZuGE6hL-4

.  We can expect that the economic situation, will worsen as you point out.

.  and since my post about covid-19 & nuclear submarines, it has appeared in regard to an aircraft carrier: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=aircraft+carrier%2C+covid-19&t=h_&ia=news

.    As many nations have nuclear weapons, and some others also have submarines with nuclear missiles at sea, that must come into port at some time, we have a potentially unstable situation after they go back out to sea, if security isn't total and testing is not 100% accurate and through, while in port. Submarines of course make distancing impossible and recirculate air constantly, making them even more deadly than cruise ships.

.    Indeed as you say, try as we may, we seem to have entered an era when the surprises ( & the unimaginable) are likely to be even greater than computers, the internet, iphone, & CRISPR (who's effects still haven't really been felt).
.  Who knows if the Chinese, who punished the one Doctor who used CRISPR, on a human just did so, to hide what they are doing in secret labs. Seems entirely possible, considering the actions of many governments in relation to both chemical, bio-weapons, & now drones, & shortly more robotic weapons.
.  It all seems more & more dystopian whatever the definition.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26581262 - 04/06/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, it's a very complex and not at all pretty picture. And that complexity makes the whole subject of practical "solutions" rather meaningless. Indeed, even if someone could see the future, no one would listen to him.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26581284 - 04/06/20 09:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I am going to differ.  Leftism will not prevail in the United States.  Unlike Europe who tends to be more authoritarian but more serious and less corrupt about their statism, I just don’t see the US going this direction.  This is the dawn of the libertarian. 

I do agree that a select business elite may concentrate more wealth and influence but at least they won’t have the state on their side.  This combined with advancements in AI is reason for optimism.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26581323 - 04/06/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

@laughing dog,

some assumptions about AI are incorrect.
a disembodied AI you say would have no emotions:
the AI actually has a body which is the computer and the network it is embedded in as well as all the sensors and motors or drones that are connected.
It definitely would have residual body based impressions and memories and would, just as we do, need to deal with emotions, which are strong autonomic adjustments to situations that have memories with difficult body feelings.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26581346 - 04/06/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I am going to differ.  Leftism will not prevail in the United States.  Unlike Europe who tends to be more authoritarian but more serious and less corrupt about their statism, I just don’t see the US going this direction.  This is the dawn of the libertarian. 

I do agree that a select business elite may concentrate more wealth and influence but at least they won’t have the state on their side.  This combined with advancements in AI is reason for optimism.





I wouldn't call a socialist autocracy "leftism." The type of arrangement I am guessing might happen has never existed before. Either the system pays people to remain alive, or millions and billions of people starve to death. That's a totally new social hierarchy, not leftism.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26581608 - 04/06/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I am going to differ.  Leftism will not prevail in the United States.  Unlike Europe who tends to be more authoritarian but more serious and less corrupt about their statism, I just don’t see the US going this direction.  This is the dawn of the libertarian. 

I do agree that a select business elite may concentrate more wealth and influence but at least they won’t have the state on their side.  This combined with advancements in AI is reason for optimism.





I wouldn't call a socialist autocracy "leftism." The type of arrangement I am guessing might happen has never existed before. Either the system pays people to remain alive, or millions and billions of people starve to death. That's a totally new social hierarchy, not leftism.





I’m pretty sure social statism is the definition of leftism.  Unless I am confused?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26581628 - 04/06/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
@laughing dog,

some assumptions about AI are incorrect.
a disembodied AI you say would have no emotions:
the AI actually has a body which is the computer and the network it is embedded in as well as all the sensors and motors or drones that are connected.
It definitely would have residual body based impressions and memories and would, just as we do, need to deal with emotions, which are strong autonomic adjustments to situations that have memories with difficult body feelings.




I doubt it.
It may make for good fiction however.
As in the case of Hal in the movie: "2001 space odyssey".


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26581635 - 04/06/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Either the system pays people to remain alive, or millions and billions of people starve to death. That's a totally new social hierarchy, not leftism.




This raises the question, how do the elites control those smart people they still need to invent new computers and design more GMO food crops, etc. Such folks may not be so easy to fool & control - especially when they are smarter - than the hedonist elites - I think this may have happened in history before - that the ruling class becomes weak.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26581758 - 04/06/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That is a very good question. It seems that technological innovation is done by a very tiny percentage of the population. So how do they fit in? I guess they might be some sort of ancillary part of the elite class. Certainly, they will be making more money than the average citizen. Who knows, it's a great question.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26581764 - 04/06/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I’m pretty sure social statism is the definition of leftism.  Unless I am confused?




You may be right, but I'm not very concerned about how we label it. What I describe would be nothing like any socialist system that has ever existed.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26581775 - 04/06/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

i think that humans are prone to use their knowledge in such a compartmentalized and specialized fashion, that it's probably hard to see the trees through the forest.

i wonder if the only way that people might heed a warning from the future, is it it came directly from themselves. 

if people could see the future, would they even listen to themselves?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26581824 - 04/06/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
if people could see the future, would they even listen to themselves?




Considering cigarette smoking & climate change, and a host of other such very obviously self sabotaging behaviors, the answer is: No.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26581838 - 04/06/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Shit's addictive. Difficult thing to do to move in another direction. Especially when you're already down in the hole. Most people can't even see the potential of man, which is probably a blessing.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26581910 - 04/06/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

may be people are trying to kill their future selves, so they don't have to listen to themselves anymore!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26581920 - 04/06/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

already enough noise in their heads from various current selves.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26581932 - 04/06/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah eventually it becomes a matter of anything to kill the noise, briefly or permanently. So you end up reaching for all the wrong solutions even though you know deep down it's killing every part of you.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26581947 - 04/06/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

sounds very dystopian.

may be people need new problems so they stop getting wrong solutions.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26583913 - 04/07/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I’m pretty sure social statism is the definition of leftism.  Unless I am confused?




You may be right, but I'm not very concerned about how we label it. What I describe would be nothing like any socialist system that has ever existed.





Ok.  Well it seems to me you are most suspicious about an elitist big business class that would most likely lead to a dystopia.  But I think the state is to be feared most.  The state concocts the massive military with an ever growing weapons technology, the state has the privileged power of controlling the society at their mercy.  I struggle to think a big business functioning to meet a demand would be responsible for a dystopia.  Instead massive nuclear war, state surveillance, and god knows what else could trigger a dystopian like scenario especially if the state is open for corruption which we already know is the case in the US.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26584188 - 04/07/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Well I imagine that if society evolves in the way I suppose it might, the state apparatus and the economic elite would probably merge into each other. It would likely just be one ruling class. But if you imagine a different scenario I'd be interested in your sharing.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A dystopian future? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26584269 - 04/07/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

.    As we already know, between the power of corporations, lobbyists, and the jobs retired politicians get, and their stock trading perks, and the cost of running in an election and so on... the line between politics, big business, and the very rich is totally blurred in the USA. And we also know this is true of the "justice" system.
The USA has not resembled a democracy, probably loosely speaking,  since about 1945, or around the end of WWll, when Eisenhower warned of the "military industrial complex", a term he coined.

.    Now with facial recognition systems, the NSA's new server farm, and more location tracking due to the virus
https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-location-tracking-apps-could-145401184.html
and decreased time to process anyone's DNA, & more dependence on the internet, (to name just some of the factors at play) privacy will perhaps become, limited, sort of like sex, to the bedroom. .    Out side of closed doors, 'Big brother' in some shape or form, will have even more control....than just collecting taxes, with the threat of prison if they aren't paid.


Edited by laughingdog (04/07/20 03:12 PM)


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