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Darwin23
INFJ



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Killing People
#26580668 - 04/05/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.
Case in point, this scene from Carriers:
I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.
Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?
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CountHTML
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] 2
#26580684 - 04/05/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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What you’re talking about changes depending on context and circumstances. In situations where it is life or death, we move into lower regions of our brains and kick into survival mode. Civility is a fragile veneer cracked very easily by things ranging from hunger to politics. Much of our sense of morality in the the western world is a consequence of privilege and abundance not commonly seen in human history.
With that said, I think it is superior. We want to live in a world where confrontations like the one in that movie are not necessary. Clearly, life is better for us all with some veneer of civility and with killing placed neatly in the box of taboo.
This is why stability is important and why wealth inequality must be limited before it gets to the point of pitchforks. There are certain socially constructed norms that clearly do make human life better and the world a better place.
I know I’m kind of moving elliptically around your question like a good square westerner would but just what this brings up for me...
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Darwin23
INFJ



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Quote:
CountHTML said: What you’re talking about changes depending on context and circumstances. In situations where it is life or death, we move into lower regions of our brains and kick into survival mode. Civility is a fragile veneer cracked very easily by things ranging from hunger to politics. Much of our sense of morality in the the western world is a consequence of privilege and abundance not commonly seen in human history.
With that said, I think it is superior. We want to live in a world where confrontations like the one in that movie are not necessary. Clearly, life is better for us all with some veneer of civility and with killing placed neatly in the box of taboo.
This is why stability is important and why wealth inequality must be limited before it gets to the point of pitchforks. There are certain socially constructed norms that clearly do make human life better and the world a better place.
I know I’m kind of moving elliptically around your question like a good square westerner would but just what this brings up for me...
I suppose that makes sense. I don't mean to say that I'm just this violent beast or anything. I'm a very empathetic person and have only been physically violent once in my life, but when I imagine those scenarios, I have no qualms about killing someone who threatens our safety (even if it's down the road).
I don't know if films further the plot by leaving that primal decision-making out but I just can't relate to leaving a threat there tied up or otherwise, when I know they could be responsible for killing me or my people. They have to die.
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] 1
#26580713 - 04/05/20 10:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.
Case in point, this scene from Carriers:
I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.
Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?
Seems a lot more of an ESTP thing than INFJ to me
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CountHTML
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] 1
#26580729 - 04/05/20 10:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh no I don’t think that at all; I think subjects like this and the feelings they bring up are exciting and are the meat and potatoes of philosophy.
In a sharply zero-sum encounter where the survival of yourself or loved ones is at stake, the game certainly changes. Interestingly, I think motivations matter. It is worse if someone takes pleasure or malice in ending someone else’s life rather than holding a more respectful and somber tone.
I guess it’s just situation-specific gradations of morality, corresponding to states of mind and being related to the situations i.e. reactive primal-brain decision-making interacting with moral trade-offs making up the broader quandary. We never know how we would react in a situation until we’re placed there.
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Darwin23
INFJ



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You're right. I'm obsessed with MBTI like any other INFJ. So basically we shift into different types in special circumstances. Guess what the INFJ's aspirational type is: ESTP! It's funny, my mom will see MBTI videos and think the ESTP is describing me. In reality, a traumatic childhood and a heavy engagement of my Se has led me to acting like an ESTP often.
Nice catch, dude.
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Edited by Darwin23 (04/05/20 11:00 PM)
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Darwin23
INFJ



Registered: 10/08/10
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said:
Quote:
Darwin23 said: So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.
Case in point, this scene from Carriers:
I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.
Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?
Seems a lot more of an ESTP thing than INFJ to me 
It's interesting to note, I was literally a virgin until 26 I was so shy. I planned everything in my head and tried to control every situation and how I was perceived. After a girl I was in love for years passed me up ONLY because of my controlling nature (she had a crush on me during the time I was in love with her) something in me snapped. I began trying to jump into situations and let go of outcome. It led me to some insane situations (meeting a camgirl I met online, sneaking into a communist country that denied me entry, traveling solo through Guyana and crossing the border on foot before catching a ride to the city of Boa Vista, Brazil, heading to the center of the Amazon with $4 in my pocket, catching a ride with a stranger deeper in the Amazon to see sloths and monkeys). I've been reckless at times since then.
All I was doing was shifting into ESTP. Oh, and I'm engaged now too. It brought me many good things in life. It's interesting, ESTP's have the opposite. Their problem would be jumping into too many situations and they wish to be level-headed, measured and planning over acting. We're their aspirational type.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] 1
#26581313 - 04/06/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm all for trapping them and tying them up, and getting the fuck away. Killing makes no sense, buy duct tape not guns.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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yeah it's ok
obviously
you don't get it of higher quality from dying
"hawk, I'm dying"...
enter the void
pineapple express
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laughingdog
Stranger

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duck tape the pineapples for jesus
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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I have two types of duct tape, one is much more seriously amazing, and shiny too.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26584546 - 04/07/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was in the US Army Infantry...I got training to survive at all costs...If your group is threatened then do the deal. I am not saying that our current threat warrants this...after being told not to go around the police and the firefighters in my city, I am still required to do so based on my support role even though people above me have tried to wash their hands of my fate and that of others where I work. I am not totally happy about this, but when push comes to shove others should be compassionate...if they cant then fate could take a role where random people are concerned. However, brothers and sisters, we are a long fucking way from that happening. Not seen the movie...looks good...is it or was that scene just a one off...lol.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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turbulentflow
Probably sober



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Posts: 197
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26585332 - 04/08/20 12:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't worry, nothing's wrong with you. It's totally normal to have thoughts of killing people, or feel as if you might be willing to kill someone. I'm of the opinion that all humans are capable of killing, although obviously the circumstances needed vary wildly from person to person.
I'll also say that, as our society has progressed and the presence of genuine mortal danger has become more and more rare, it's quite understandable that there's been a shift in our overall societal ethics away from viewing violence as acceptable. That doesn't change the fact that we're still human beings, though, and I think it's rather silly to compare yourself against some pure ideal of morality. That's not to say you shouldn't try to act morally, of course, but don't fret if your inner mind isn't some platonic manifestation of peace and love.
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
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laughingdog
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Quote:
turbulentflow said: Don't worry, nothing's wrong with you. It's totally normal to have thoughts of killing people, or feel as if you might be willing to kill someone. I'm of the opinion that all humans are capable of killing, although obviously the circumstances needed vary wildly from person to person.
I'll also say that, as our society has progressed and the presence of genuine mortal danger has become more and more rare, it's quite understandable that there's been a shift in our overall societal ethics away from viewing violence as acceptable. That doesn't change the fact that we're still human beings, though, and I think it's rather silly to compare yourself against some pure ideal of morality. That's not to say you shouldn't try to act morally, of course, but don't fret if your inner mind isn't some platonic manifestation of peace and love.
. Very good points IMO.
On the other hand many studies find that simply owning a gun & keeping it in your home increases ones chances of dying from that gun's use. **
. So its not just a hippy (or religious) notion that maintaining the idea that violence is often a good solution to many problems, has rather negative consequences. This may also be seen in studies of child rearing where punishment involves hitting.
. Many who have tripped, would agree, that on the contrary, dropping self protective concerns and opening to forgiveness and gratitude, (which may have happened spontaneously during the trip) are what changed their lives for the better, thereafter.
** https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-guns-in-home-increase-suicide-homicide-risk/
"Study after study seems to point to a similar conclusion: More guns mean more unnatural death. "A new survey in the Annals of Internal Medicine narrows down some of the causal relationship between guns and death by finding conclusively that having a gun in your home makes you more likely to successfully attempt suicide. The authors of the survey also found with a lesser degree of certainty that people with guns in their home are more likely to be the victims of a homicide."
and
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=death+from+Handguns%2C+in+houses+that+have+guns&t=h_&ia=web
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26586977 - 04/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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In a lawless world I'd probably opt out. I have a hard time observing the ugliness of humanity given all the buffers we have. If those buffers were gone, I really don't think I'd want to take part.
Hard to know for sure, but that's the way it feels. I'm not one for the motto "If you can't beat them, join them." I'm too stubborn for that. It may be that I could create a buffer for myself and just be a commander type but I'm really not motivated to control others for my own protection. I'm more motivated to command others so that they can better themselves and hopefully, one day, command themselves.
Hard to know what motives could be though. Like I said, just where it stands now it seems more of an opt out scenario to me.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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turbulentflow
Probably sober



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Re: Killing People [Re: Kickle]
#26587050 - 04/08/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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We do live in a lawless world. Humans are naturally disposed to forming societies, it's how we survive. Even if anarchy were to reign for a brief time, I'm confident that people would reform into a relatively stable society sooner or later.
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
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Kickle
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I guess? Looking at where we've been in the past when things go south doesn't look great IMO. The societies are cruel to those who differ and the leaders are typically quite ruthless*. Exceptions exist but those individuals are usually put to death after a time in such societies. So that's what informs my views. What informs yours?
* I think this is the right move given human interaction in certain times. Just not times I want to be around for
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laughingdog
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Quote:
turbulentflow said: We do live in a lawless world. Humans are naturally disposed to forming societies, it's how we survive. Even if anarchy were to reign for a brief time, I'm confident that people would reform into a relatively stable society sooner or later.
"We do live in a lawless world." Actually it varies a lot from place to place,& time to time.
"would reform into a relatively stable society " actually there have always been many societies and they tend to war with each other -- so in a sense whatever stability they have is precarious. Also the amount of crime & how it is dealt with varies. At present the USA has the most folks in prison per capita, of any nation. Really a great stable democracy happening here.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/
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laughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: Kickle]
#26587408 - 04/08/20 09:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: In a lawless world I'd probably opt out. I have a hard time observing the ugliness of humanity given all the buffers we have. If those buffers were gone, I really don't think I'd want to take part.
My feeling as well. Not just the lack of law, but also, poverty, disease, war, and horrible customs -- render living in much of world hellish.
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turbulentflow
Probably sober



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Quote:
laughingdog said: "We do live in a lawless world." Actually it varies a lot from place to place,& time to time.
"would reform into a relatively stable society " actually there have always been many societies and they tend to war with each other -- so in a sense whatever stability they have is precarious. Also the amount of crime & how it is dealt with varies. At present the USA has the most folks in prison per capita, of any nation. Really a great stable democracy happening here.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/
To clarify, when I said "we do live in a lawless world," I meant it as a rather tongue-in-cheek way of saying that there's no external force that causes our society to have laws and order. The existence of our current society is living proof that humans tend to create laws and societies for themselves.
I'm not saying our society is perfect, mind you. But I think we're certainly a far cry from everyone murdering each other at random. Obviously societies can become more or less stable over time, but even in times of apparent chaos, there is usually still a certain semblance of law and order (though it may not be one that's particularly fair).
For instance, look at the existence of gangs and criminal syndicates, many of which serve as a de-facto police force in their neighborhoods. Even people that operate entirely outside the written law of the land are perfectly capable of developing a code of conduct and enforcing it. (I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)
-------------------- "We cannot command nature except by obeying her."
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laughingdog
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Quote:
turbulentflow said: ...(I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)
Agreed. Don't fuck with Mexican drug lords.
Another consideration is that murder is illegal unless you are a soldier. And torture is illegal, but the CIA can outsource it to other countries. and of course, if you don't fall into a convenient category, you may end up with no rights, in guantanamo bay, for the rest of your life. Then there are the illegal, experiments performed on US citizens by the CIA. I'm sure others can think of other such examples.
The USA is a democracy in name only. The size of the military budget in the USA, has for many years shown the true priorities of the nation. Also there are more prisoners per capita in the US than any other country. And a poor infant mortality rate for one of the richest countries.
White citizens of the US are generally blinded, as to what a nasty country it is. The hippies who 'got it' in the 60s were pretty much crushed fairly quickly. We can see how blind most of the citizens are, by how excited folks get about the meaningless politics of the 2 party system.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
turbulentflow said: ...(I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)
Agreed. Don't fuck with Mexican drug lords.
Another consideration is that murder is illegal unless you are a soldier. And torture is illegal, but the CIA can outsource it to other countries. and of course, if you don't fall into a convenient category, you may end up with no rights, in guantanamo bay, for the rest of your life. Then there are the illegal, experiments performed on US citizens by the CIA. I'm sure others can think of other such examples.
The USA is a democracy in name only. The size of the military budget in the USA, has for many years shown the true priorities of the nation. Also there are more prisoners per capita in the US than any other country. And a poor infant mortality rate for one of the richest countries.
White citizens of the US are generally blinded, as to what a nasty country it is. The hippies who 'got it' in the 60s were pretty much crushed fairly quickly. We can see how blind most of the citizens are, by how excited folks get about the meaningless politics of the 2 party system.
Interesting thing...I was in the military...combat soldier. I learned this: The military is a relatively benign organization. They like to organize shit...but most soldiers do not want to kill other people. I did not want to shoot at or be shot at others...when I joined I was acting out my aggression, but the military did advise me on what war meant. The best soldiers and leaders in the military want peace. General Mad Dog Mattis...a recent secretary of defense said the easiest way to not have war is not have enemies. The military is at the disposal of civilians...read politicians. They are the ones that send people to their deaths. We need the ability to defend but killing people for their resources is the work of civilian politicians...the very people not likely to be impacted negatively. I am a hard core liberal yet at one point I thought I best served my fellow humans by being a combat Infantryman.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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WASTE

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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26595937 - 04/12/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.
Case in point, this scene from Carriers:
I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.
Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?
It's hard to imagine how one would act in such a high intensity situation, but I believe that most placed in that sort of situation most people would kill to protect their loved one without a second thought. To me your mentality appears more consistent than my own. Given the trolly thought experiment, I'd redirect a train to kill 10 strangers rather than one of my family members, but the idea of killing a human is pretty repulsive to me. So its hard for me to imagine how I'd actually act in that situation
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laughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: WASTE]
#26597814 - 04/13/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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. Seems how people react to killing (other folks), is just another instance of the freewill debate. The fact is most people do what they are comfortable with, most of the time. And this depends on habit, and habit depends on what one does day to day to survive, and that depends on one's physical environment, and one's social environment.
. Its all interconnected and has little to do with some theoretical absolute morality.
. Its different for gangbangers and Arabs. Gangbangers shoot people from cars and Arabs behead people on the internet, and stone unfaithful wives. Nothing to do with "what's right" although each group thinks it does, but everything to do with surrounding social culture & habit and peer pressure. . Seems its the same for many of our other behaviors.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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I think it's more than just habit in some instances, for instance if somebody kills your child and you have the means to kill them in revenge and don't it is likely and act of cowardice and an obstruction of inner feeling and desire on your part, whether you are a gangbanger or an arab. Culture could inform the decision not to kill as much as it could the decision to kill.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's more than just habit in some instances, for instance if somebody kills your child and you have the means to kill them in revenge and don't it is likely and act of cowardice and an obstruction of inner feeling and desire on your part, whether you are a gangbanger or an arab. Culture could inform the decision not to kill as much as it could the decision to kill.
. Makes no sense to me, seems you are simply defining vengeance as a legitimate emotion and forgiveness as an illegitimate emotion, ( or an emotion only possible from suppression or cowardice and not from an open heart - unfortunately a rather common view) - and that you then go on to confusing this notion, with an example I used.
. Seems you also make the assumption HERE that expressing & acting on emotion, is superior to reason. Whereas when discussing vaccinations, in the other thread you take the opposite position.
. Emotion and habit are certainly both motivators, on this we both seem to agree. And some may have a habit of repressing emotions (possibly introverts & some other types) and others of expressing them ( extroverts & 'drama queens & some other types).
. The OP seemed to think there were moral answers that could guide people on the issue of whether or not to kill others, & when & why & so on. And that some sort of justification for a person's views on this was necessary. Of course much thought has been given to this subject by many (certainly thousands of folks & maybe millions over thousands of years). . My post was meant to point out that in reality, much of what happens in the world, "so to speak" : "side steps" all such concerns. Wether more habit or emotion is involved, may vary from case to case, but I suspect much of our behavior is based less on conscious choice than we like to imagine. . Therefore I don't think theoretical discussions of ideal & absolute morality are either necessary or useful. And it would seem those who trust themselves generally have a similar view. I imagine those who go to theological seminary schools are those who are filled with self doubt.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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I'm not sure what you're referring to in the other thread so you'll have to be more specific if you would like a response toward that. I think perhaps I expressed myself a little clumsily and largely I don't find myself at variance with what you say here. I just thought your example was a little one sided as following cultural inputs over trusting yourself could just as eaily lead to non violent behaviour as violent behaviour IMO. I don't see violence as always being a moral or karmic negative, it seems likely to me that sometimes it would the most natural expression of life and principle a person could make in a situation. However I don't mean to insinuate that forgiveness or reason should be thrown out in all cases, and violence itself might well not require that.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: ... and largely I don't find myself at variance with what you say here.....
Likewise
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26601589 - 04/14/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is a difference between killing somoneone and murdering someone.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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gangbangers and arabs!
please excuse me for not watching videos, but this type of generalization and labelling seems a bit off.
"arabs" includes a huge group of people that are not murderers, while "gangbangers" seems to include all the slap happy thugs including Trump, so this reduces to the politics of racism.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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I guess you must never have watched The Wire. Gangbangers are far more badass than Trump.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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true, shaky cam got me turned off
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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why not educate the next generation
there is a lot of ruining
we should make educating the next generation a bigger thing
educating them in bhante gunaratana
mindfulness in plain english
rgv posts
take the truth of them
and the most important points
and go systematically at work
what do we want?
we want meditation
and prioritizing self improvement and things like that
spirituallity
innocence
not muder
moderation
innocence
we should have very smart people some of the top folks sages to
say what is the disease
what does it come from
some of it comes from greed and desire and hatred
educate and shape the disease out and the solution in
harmony
spirituality
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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i'm no guru, though I appreciate the good hearted comment ^.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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idea for society?
and mental health institutions
and politics
and school yay (stay in school!)
get phd
will you be a professor?
one of the finest things here
there is truth about how good doing are
prayers
count high
10 points
meditation 20 points
someone high in the hierarchy
a team of the smartest sages or politicians
should make a list
of what is best to do
then public it (worlding it he)
so schools and institutions could use it
when meditaition is that good and it prevents murder around you
etc.
because you work on yourself and get better influence
etc.
it should be clear and objective as a list what is best
what scores the highest
when painting makes you have it better so fast it should be done and we should start early
same with meditation so we can attain liberation quickly
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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it's moment to moment, so points wont count - but keep up the good work.
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