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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
turbulentflow said: ...(I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)
Agreed. Don't fuck with Mexican drug lords.
Another consideration is that murder is illegal unless you are a soldier. And torture is illegal, but the CIA can outsource it to other countries. and of course, if you don't fall into a convenient category, you may end up with no rights, in guantanamo bay, for the rest of your life. Then there are the illegal, experiments performed on US citizens by the CIA. I'm sure others can think of other such examples.
The USA is a democracy in name only. The size of the military budget in the USA, has for many years shown the true priorities of the nation. Also there are more prisoners per capita in the US than any other country. And a poor infant mortality rate for one of the richest countries.
White citizens of the US are generally blinded, as to what a nasty country it is. The hippies who 'got it' in the 60s were pretty much crushed fairly quickly. We can see how blind most of the citizens are, by how excited folks get about the meaningless politics of the 2 party system.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
turbulentflow said: ...(I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)
Agreed. Don't fuck with Mexican drug lords.
Another consideration is that murder is illegal unless you are a soldier. And torture is illegal, but the CIA can outsource it to other countries. and of course, if you don't fall into a convenient category, you may end up with no rights, in guantanamo bay, for the rest of your life. Then there are the illegal, experiments performed on US citizens by the CIA. I'm sure others can think of other such examples.
The USA is a democracy in name only. The size of the military budget in the USA, has for many years shown the true priorities of the nation. Also there are more prisoners per capita in the US than any other country. And a poor infant mortality rate for one of the richest countries.
White citizens of the US are generally blinded, as to what a nasty country it is. The hippies who 'got it' in the 60s were pretty much crushed fairly quickly. We can see how blind most of the citizens are, by how excited folks get about the meaningless politics of the 2 party system.
Interesting thing...I was in the military...combat soldier. I learned this: The military is a relatively benign organization. They like to organize shit...but most soldiers do not want to kill other people. I did not want to shoot at or be shot at others...when I joined I was acting out my aggression, but the military did advise me on what war meant. The best soldiers and leaders in the military want peace. General Mad Dog Mattis...a recent secretary of defense said the easiest way to not have war is not have enemies. The military is at the disposal of civilians...read politicians. They are the ones that send people to their deaths. We need the ability to defend but killing people for their resources is the work of civilian politicians...the very people not likely to be impacted negatively. I am a hard core liberal yet at one point I thought I best served my fellow humans by being a combat Infantryman.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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WASTE

Registered: 12/15/19
Posts: 114
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 days, 10 hours
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26595937 - 04/12/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.
Case in point, this scene from Carriers:
I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.
Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?
It's hard to imagine how one would act in such a high intensity situation, but I believe that most placed in that sort of situation most people would kill to protect their loved one without a second thought. To me your mentality appears more consistent than my own. Given the trolly thought experiment, I'd redirect a train to kill 10 strangers rather than one of my family members, but the idea of killing a human is pretty repulsive to me. So its hard for me to imagine how I'd actually act in that situation
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Killing People [Re: WASTE]
#26597814 - 04/13/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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. Seems how people react to killing (other folks), is just another instance of the freewill debate. The fact is most people do what they are comfortable with, most of the time. And this depends on habit, and habit depends on what one does day to day to survive, and that depends on one's physical environment, and one's social environment.
. Its all interconnected and has little to do with some theoretical absolute morality.
. Its different for gangbangers and Arabs. Gangbangers shoot people from cars and Arabs behead people on the internet, and stone unfaithful wives. Nothing to do with "what's right" although each group thinks it does, but everything to do with surrounding social culture & habit and peer pressure. . Seems its the same for many of our other behaviors.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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I think it's more than just habit in some instances, for instance if somebody kills your child and you have the means to kill them in revenge and don't it is likely and act of cowardice and an obstruction of inner feeling and desire on your part, whether you are a gangbanger or an arab. Culture could inform the decision not to kill as much as it could the decision to kill.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's more than just habit in some instances, for instance if somebody kills your child and you have the means to kill them in revenge and don't it is likely and act of cowardice and an obstruction of inner feeling and desire on your part, whether you are a gangbanger or an arab. Culture could inform the decision not to kill as much as it could the decision to kill.
. Makes no sense to me, seems you are simply defining vengeance as a legitimate emotion and forgiveness as an illegitimate emotion, ( or an emotion only possible from suppression or cowardice and not from an open heart - unfortunately a rather common view) - and that you then go on to confusing this notion, with an example I used.
. Seems you also make the assumption HERE that expressing & acting on emotion, is superior to reason. Whereas when discussing vaccinations, in the other thread you take the opposite position.
. Emotion and habit are certainly both motivators, on this we both seem to agree. And some may have a habit of repressing emotions (possibly introverts & some other types) and others of expressing them ( extroverts & 'drama queens & some other types).
. The OP seemed to think there were moral answers that could guide people on the issue of whether or not to kill others, & when & why & so on. And that some sort of justification for a person's views on this was necessary. Of course much thought has been given to this subject by many (certainly thousands of folks & maybe millions over thousands of years). . My post was meant to point out that in reality, much of what happens in the world, "so to speak" : "side steps" all such concerns. Wether more habit or emotion is involved, may vary from case to case, but I suspect much of our behavior is based less on conscious choice than we like to imagine. . Therefore I don't think theoretical discussions of ideal & absolute morality are either necessary or useful. And it would seem those who trust themselves generally have a similar view. I imagine those who go to theological seminary schools are those who are filled with self doubt.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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I'm not sure what you're referring to in the other thread so you'll have to be more specific if you would like a response toward that. I think perhaps I expressed myself a little clumsily and largely I don't find myself at variance with what you say here. I just thought your example was a little one sided as following cultural inputs over trusting yourself could just as eaily lead to non violent behaviour as violent behaviour IMO. I don't see violence as always being a moral or karmic negative, it seems likely to me that sometimes it would the most natural expression of life and principle a person could make in a situation. However I don't mean to insinuate that forgiveness or reason should be thrown out in all cases, and violence itself might well not require that.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: ... and largely I don't find myself at variance with what you say here.....
Likewise
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 28 minutes
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
#26601589 - 04/14/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is a difference between killing somoneone and murdering someone.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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gangbangers and arabs!
please excuse me for not watching videos, but this type of generalization and labelling seems a bit off.
"arabs" includes a huge group of people that are not murderers, while "gangbangers" seems to include all the slap happy thugs including Trump, so this reduces to the politics of racism.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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I guess you must never have watched The Wire. Gangbangers are far more badass than Trump.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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true, shaky cam got me turned off
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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why not educate the next generation
there is a lot of ruining
we should make educating the next generation a bigger thing
educating them in bhante gunaratana
mindfulness in plain english
rgv posts
take the truth of them
and the most important points
and go systematically at work
what do we want?
we want meditation
and prioritizing self improvement and things like that
spirituallity
innocence
not muder
moderation
innocence
we should have very smart people some of the top folks sages to
say what is the disease
what does it come from
some of it comes from greed and desire and hatred
educate and shape the disease out and the solution in
harmony
spirituality
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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i'm no guru, though I appreciate the good hearted comment ^.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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idea for society?
and mental health institutions
and politics
and school yay (stay in school!)
get phd
will you be a professor?
one of the finest things here
there is truth about how good doing are
prayers
count high
10 points
meditation 20 points
someone high in the hierarchy
a team of the smartest sages or politicians
should make a list
of what is best to do
then public it (worlding it he)
so schools and institutions could use it
when meditaition is that good and it prevents murder around you
etc.
because you work on yourself and get better influence
etc.
it should be clear and objective as a list what is best
what scores the highest
when painting makes you have it better so fast it should be done and we should start early
same with meditation so we can attain liberation quickly
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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it's moment to moment, so points wont count - but keep up the good work.
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