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OfflineDarwin23
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Killing People
    #26580668 - 04/05/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.

Case in point, this scene from Carriers:


I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.

Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] * 2
    #26580684 - 04/05/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

What you’re talking about changes depending on context and circumstances. In situations where it is life or death, we move into lower regions of our brains and kick into survival mode. Civility is a fragile veneer cracked very easily by things ranging from hunger to politics. Much of our sense of morality in the the western world is a consequence of privilege and abundance not commonly seen in human history.

With that said, I think it is superior. We want to live in a world where confrontations like the one in that movie are not necessary. Clearly, life is better for us all with some veneer of civility and with killing placed neatly in the box of taboo.

This is why stability is important and why wealth inequality must be limited before it gets to the point of pitchforks. There are certain socially constructed norms that clearly do make human life better and the world a better place.

I know I’m kind of moving elliptically around your question like a good square westerner would but just what this brings up for me...


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Killing People [Re: CountHTML]
    #26580702 - 04/05/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:
What you’re talking about changes depending on context and circumstances. In situations where it is life or death, we move into lower regions of our brains and kick into survival mode. Civility is a fragile veneer cracked very easily by things ranging from hunger to politics. Much of our sense of morality in the the western world is a consequence of privilege and abundance not commonly seen in human history.

With that said, I think it is superior. We want to live in a world where confrontations like the one in that movie are not necessary. Clearly, life is better for us all with some veneer of civility and with killing placed neatly in the box of taboo.

This is why stability is important and why wealth inequality must be limited before it gets to the point of pitchforks. There are certain socially constructed norms that clearly do make human life better and the world a better place.

I know I’m kind of moving elliptically around your question like a good square westerner would but just what this brings up for me...




I suppose that makes sense. I don't mean to say that I'm just this violent beast or anything. I'm a very empathetic person and have only been physically violent once in my life, but when I imagine those scenarios, I have no qualms about killing someone who threatens our safety (even if it's down the road).

I don't know if films further the plot by leaving that primal decision-making out but I just can't relate to leaving a threat there tied up or otherwise, when I know they could be responsible for killing me or my people. They have to die.


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] * 1
    #26580713 - 04/05/20 10:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.

Case in point, this scene from Carriers:


I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.

Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?




Seems a lot more of an ESTP thing than INFJ to me :shrug:


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] * 1
    #26580729 - 04/05/20 10:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Oh no I don’t think that at all; I think subjects like this and the feelings they bring up are exciting and are the meat and potatoes of philosophy.

In a sharply zero-sum encounter where the survival of yourself or loved ones is at stake, the game certainly changes. Interestingly, I think motivations matter. It is worse if someone takes pleasure or malice in ending someone else’s life rather than holding a more respectful and somber tone.

I guess it’s just situation-specific gradations of morality, corresponding to states of mind and being related to the situations i.e. reactive primal-brain decision-making interacting with moral trade-offs making up the broader quandary. We never know how we would react in a situation until we’re placed there.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Killing People [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26580730 - 04/05/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You're right. I'm obsessed with MBTI like any other INFJ. So basically we shift into different types in special circumstances. Guess what the INFJ's aspirational type is: ESTP! It's funny, my mom will see MBTI videos and think the ESTP is describing me. In reality, a traumatic childhood and a heavy engagement of my Se has led me to acting like an ESTP often.

Nice catch, dude.


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Edited by Darwin23 (04/05/20 11:00 PM)


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Killing People [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26580739 - 04/05/20 11:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
Quote:

Darwin23 said:
So I've been watching a lot of media lately (as I'm sure everyone has) and I've noticed this theme of "I don't want to kill people unless they're literally about to kill me." I really can't relate to this feeling at all. With laws/rules removed, I feel like I'd be willing to pull the trigger anytime anyone would potentially threaten the safety of me or my people OR anyone who will not give us what we need to survive.

Case in point, this scene from Carriers:


I feel zero relation to the younger brother and I would feel zero guilt in the older brother's shoes. They had gas, we would die if we don't have gas, I had to kill them.

Do people relate more to the Chris Pine character as well, or is there something just wrong with me?




Seems a lot more of an ESTP thing than INFJ to me :shrug:




It's interesting to note, I was literally a virgin until 26 I was so shy. I planned everything in my head and tried to control every situation and how I was perceived. After a girl I was in love for years passed me up ONLY because of my controlling nature (she had a crush on me during the time I was in love with her) something in me snapped. I began trying to jump into situations and let go of outcome. It led me to some insane situations (meeting a camgirl I met online, sneaking into a communist country that denied me entry, traveling solo through Guyana and crossing the border on foot before catching a ride to the city of Boa Vista, Brazil, heading to the center of the Amazon with $4 in my pocket, catching a ride with a stranger deeper in the Amazon to see sloths and monkeys). I've been reckless at times since then.

All I was doing was shifting into ESTP. Oh, and I'm engaged now too. It brought me many good things in life. It's interesting, ESTP's have the opposite. Their problem would be jumping into too many situations and they wish to be level-headed, measured and planning over acting. We're their aspirational type.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23] * 1
    #26581313 - 04/06/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm all for trapping them and tying them up, and getting the fuck away.
Killing makes no sense, buy duct tape not guns.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Killing People [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26581423 - 04/06/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yeah it's ok

obviously

you don't get it of higher quality from dying

"hawk, I'm dying"...

enter the void

pineapple express


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26581643 - 04/06/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

duck tape the pineapples for jesus


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Killing People [Re: laughingdog]
    #26581770 - 04/06/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I have two types of duct tape, one is much more seriously amazing, and shiny too.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
    #26584546 - 04/07/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I was in the US Army Infantry...I got training to survive at all costs...If your group is threatened then do the deal. I am not saying that our current threat warrants this...after being told not to go around the police and the firefighters in my city, I am still required to do so based on my support role even though people above me have tried to wash their hands of my fate and that of others where I work. I am not totally happy about this, but when push comes to shove others should be compassionate...if they cant then fate could take a role where random people are concerned. However, brothers and sisters, we are a long fucking way from that happening. Not seen the movie...looks good...is it or was that scene just a one off...lol.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleturbulentflow
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
    #26585332 - 04/08/20 12:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Don't worry, nothing's wrong with you. It's totally normal to have thoughts of killing people, or feel as if you might be willing to kill someone. I'm of the opinion that all humans are capable of killing, although obviously the circumstances needed vary wildly from person to person.

I'll also say that, as our society has progressed and the presence of genuine mortal danger has become more and more rare, it's quite understandable that there's been a shift in our overall societal ethics away from viewing violence as acceptable. That doesn't change the fact that we're still human beings, though, and I think it's rather silly to compare yourself against some pure ideal of morality. That's not to say you shouldn't try to act morally, of course, but don't fret if your inner mind isn't some platonic manifestation of peace and love.


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26586524 - 04/08/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

turbulentflow said:
Don't worry, nothing's wrong with you. It's totally normal to have thoughts of killing people, or feel as if you might be willing to kill someone. I'm of the opinion that all humans are capable of killing, although obviously the circumstances needed vary wildly from person to person.

I'll also say that, as our society has progressed and the presence of genuine mortal danger has become more and more rare, it's quite understandable that there's been a shift in our overall societal ethics away from viewing violence as acceptable. That doesn't change the fact that we're still human beings, though, and I think it's rather silly to compare yourself against some pure ideal of morality. That's not to say you shouldn't try to act morally, of course, but don't fret if your inner mind isn't some platonic manifestation of peace and love.




.    Very good points IMO.

On the other hand many studies find that simply owning a gun & keeping it in your home increases ones chances of dying from that gun's use. **

.  So its not just a hippy (or religious) notion that maintaining the idea that violence is often a good solution to many problems, has rather negative consequences. This may also be seen in studies of child rearing where punishment involves hitting.

.  Many who have tripped, would agree, that on the contrary, dropping self protective concerns and opening to forgiveness and gratitude, (which may have happened spontaneously during the trip) are what changed their lives for the better, thereafter.

**
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-guns-in-home-increase-suicide-homicide-risk/

"Study after study seems to point to a similar conclusion: More guns mean more unnatural death.
"A new survey in the Annals of Internal Medicine narrows down some of the causal relationship between guns and death by finding conclusively that having a gun in your home makes you more likely to successfully attempt suicide. The authors of the survey also found with a lesser degree of certainty that people with guns in their home are more likely to be the victims of a homicide."

and

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=death+from+Handguns%2C+in+houses+that+have+guns&t=h_&ia=web


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Killing People [Re: Darwin23]
    #26586977 - 04/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In a lawless world I'd probably opt out. I have a hard time observing the ugliness of humanity given all the buffers we have. If those buffers were gone, I really don't think I'd want to take part.

Hard to know for sure, but that's the way it feels. I'm not one for the motto "If you can't beat them, join them." I'm too stubborn for that. It may be that I could create a buffer for myself and just be a commander type but I'm really not motivated to control others for my own protection. I'm more motivated to command others so that they can better themselves and hopefully, one day, command themselves.

Hard to know what motives could be though. Like I said, just where it stands now it seems more of an opt out scenario to me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleturbulentflow
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Re: Killing People [Re: Kickle]
    #26587050 - 04/08/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We do live in a lawless world. Humans are naturally disposed to forming societies, it's how we survive. Even if anarchy were to reign for a brief time, I'm confident that people would reform into a relatively stable society sooner or later.


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"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Killing People [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26587144 - 04/08/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I guess? Looking at where we've been in the past when things go south doesn't look great IMO. The societies are cruel to those who differ and the leaders are typically quite ruthless*. Exceptions exist but those individuals are usually put to death after a time in such societies. So that's what informs my views. What informs yours?

* I think this is the right move given human interaction in certain times. Just not times I want to be around for


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26587394 - 04/08/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

turbulentflow said:
We do live in a lawless world. Humans are naturally disposed to forming societies, it's how we survive. Even if anarchy were to reign for a brief time, I'm confident that people would reform into a relatively stable society sooner or later.




"We do live in a lawless world." Actually it varies a lot from place to place,& time to time.

"would reform into a relatively stable society " actually there have always been many societies and they tend to war with each other -- so in a sense whatever stability they have is precarious. Also the amount of crime & how it is dealt with varies. At present the USA has the most folks in prison per capita, of any nation. Really a great stable democracy happening here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Killing People [Re: Kickle]
    #26587408 - 04/08/20 09:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
In a lawless world I'd probably opt out. I have a hard time observing the ugliness of humanity given all the buffers we have. If those buffers were gone, I really don't think I'd want to take part.




My feeling as well. Not just the lack of law, but also, poverty, disease, war, and horrible customs -- render living in much of world hellish.


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Invisibleturbulentflow
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Re: Killing People [Re: laughingdog]
    #26587596 - 04/08/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
"We do live in a lawless world." Actually it varies a lot from place to place,& time to time.

"would reform into a relatively stable society " actually there have always been many societies and they tend to war with each other -- so in a sense whatever stability they have is precarious. Also the amount of crime & how it is dealt with varies. At present the USA has the most folks in prison per capita, of any nation. Really a great stable democracy happening here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/




To clarify, when I said "we do live in a lawless world," I meant it as a rather tongue-in-cheek way of saying that there's no external force that causes our society to have laws and order. The existence of our current society is living proof that humans tend to create laws and societies for themselves.

I'm not saying our society is perfect, mind you. But I think we're certainly a far cry from everyone murdering each other at random. Obviously societies can become more or less stable over time, but even in times of apparent chaos, there is usually still a certain semblance of law and order (though it may not be one that's particularly fair).

For instance, look at the existence of gangs and criminal syndicates, many of which serve as a de-facto police force in their neighborhoods. Even people that operate entirely outside the written law of the land are perfectly capable of developing a code of conduct and enforcing it. (I'd much rather steal my neighbor's flatscreen than a gram of coke from El Chapo)


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."


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