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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26575301 - 04/03/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I see.  Well that sounds like quite a capacity for free will :thumbup:

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26575309 - 04/03/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Thought and the fact we are talking about this means there is free will.  People are responsible for their body, its actions, and the effects of those actions.  :shrug:




Thought suggests will, but why free will? What makes any of it different from determinism? Can you describe a scenario where free will and determinism would result in different outcomes? Or determinism + randomness?

If people are responsible, why do we say people are irresponsible? If people are sometimes responsible, are they choosing that or does it just happen?

Much less of a mind fuck to say will exists. Adding the free part just makes it seem like an oxymoron... unless we're talking about the legal definition which makes perfect sense.


--------------------
rahz

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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26575320 - 04/03/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A rock gets blown over by the wind due to its mass, positioning, velocity of wind etc.  It’s all determined in an Einsteinian frame.  It is the will of the wind and the rock etc. determining outcomes.  Man can simply elect to build a house and not get blown over by the wind.  His outcome is not determined like that of a rock.  That is free will.  I’m sure there’s a better term for it but that’s what’s popular I guess.

Responsibility is framed in a social sense.  There is an agreement involving communication where a get together will take place at 5.  Both parties agree to that contract.  One person shows up late at 6 and based on the negotiation (voluntarily) is then irresponsible.

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OnlineBrian Jones
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26575334 - 04/03/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Ok but I feel the statement “nature is violent” therefore “humans are violent because they are nature” has some holes in it of some kind. 

Humans are not like nature.  We aren’t deterministic processes, like a rock, that go through actions and effects without any personal accountability.  You don’t blame a rock for tumbling over a baby and killing it.  Man is held to a much different standard.




We should treat dingo eating babies as blameless.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OnlineBrian Jones
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26575343 - 04/03/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Scientists here in the UK seem to be still telling us that mask usage is a waste of time for the general populace but RGV's point about it primarily preventing touching the face seems like a good one. I suspect the reality is that they have not yet enough masks to reach the general public, nor the experience required to arrive at a consensus. It seems likely that they will start recommending that the general public use masks here once they attain better supplies to me.

The reason for the death rate figures being so variable seems to be primarily related to testing methodologies in different countries. Although I'm not sure that explains why the SK rate is so low. Here in Europe, Germany was the country that primarily supplied testing to other countries and so they have higher levels of testing going on there. Other countries are engaged in the process of building national supply lines from the ground up. Communication between public and government here in the UK has been very sketchy for awhile now but they appear to be improving on the matter.

There has been a lot of infighting between European member countries over this, apparently both Spain and Italy have made threats about leaving the EU over the way it has been handled. They don't feel they are getting the support they deserve as member states. I think the EU will either go the direction of closer union, the supposed end game, as a result of it, or will become more split.

Some nordic countries have chosen not to lock down to the same level as other countries. Whether this is because of slower spreading of viral infections or an economic decision that they stay the course with (the claim) time will tell. Wealthy economies are clearly scared of ceding ground to other economies in this time of lock down. Resource control springing from technological development is the primary thing that has allowed them to stay on top of other countries.




Yes, I think they originally lied to us about masks because the supply was short and they needed to prioritize. Still, a lie is a lie.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26575415 - 04/03/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
A rock gets blown over by the wind due to its mass, positioning, velocity of wind etc.  It’s all determined in an Einsteinian frame.  It is the will of the wind and the rock etc. determining outcomes.  Man can simply elect to build a house and not get blown over by the wind.  His outcome is not determined like that of a rock.  That is free will.  I’m sure there’s a better term for it but that’s what’s popular I guess.

Responsibility is framed in a social sense.  There is an agreement involving communication where a get together will take place at 5.  Both parties agree to that contract.  One person shows up late at 6 and based on the negotiation (voluntarily) is then irresponsible.




Man can elect to build a house. It seemed like the best choice. Not building the house would be the odd option. So we're prone to making shelters when they're not available and we can make them fancy. It's not that I don't think choice is involved, but if someone was offered either a 1 dollar bill or a 100 dollar bill, almost everyone would take the 100. Why? Because it seems like the best choice. Those that didn't would either be rich and think it beneath them, or humble and think it could be better used elsewhere, thinking there must be strings attached or trying to prove the have free will. In all cases everyone is making what they believe to be the best or most useful choice. The best choice is dependent on previous thoughts, one's tendencies, one's upbringing, how badly they could use it, etc.

IOW, it's determined by all the various circumstances including what's inside them. Just because we don't have the math to predict such complex things with 100% accuracy doesn't mean it's "free will". Free will doesn't explain anything. It's just a placeholder for our ignorance IMO. It provides encouragement, hope, a sense of independence, etc. and those aren't necessarily bad things. In the context of living one's life and trying to work how one feels into thoughts I'm not going to say it's bad, but in the context of a philosophical discussion should we leave stones unturned?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26575527 - 04/03/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm, I’m glad you brought up the word “choice”.  In my view that’s what free will means, it’s the availability of options/choices and hence the will is free as opposed to determined.  A rock does not have choices, it’s purely determined by physics and what have you.  People will come along and say “well, it’s not infinite free will, I’m not omnipresent with unlimited choices!”.  Well, no.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26575574 - 04/03/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You seem to have ignored the rest of my text explaining why choice may be an illusion. If it was as simple as free will = choice then the topic wouldn't be so enduring.

A computer can be programmed to make comparisons and choices based on predetermined parameters.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26575720 - 04/03/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think the dingo eating babies are what started this whole corona thing, but the world was maybe ripe, and things cascaded from there.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26575740 - 04/03/20 06:06 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I led a team of marines on a mission to infiltrate and exterminate a clan of dingo eating babies back in the 60’s,
Fierce lot of creatures, I’m the only one who made it out alive.  The things I saw.  :itseveryone:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26576096 - 04/03/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
You seem to have ignored the rest of my text explaining why choice may be an illusion. If it was as simple as free will = choice then the topic wouldn't be so enduring.

A computer can be programmed to make comparisons and choices based on predetermined parameters.




Well I’m afraid anybody can pick a horse in the race and cheer for it.  :shrug:

Which again clarifies the reality of choice and free will.  It sounds like your intellectualizing reality using hindsight to justify determinism, kind of like a self proclaimed psychic that tells you your past after you disclose it.  I’m sorry but that’s just what I’m seeing here.

Edited by Yellow Pants (04/03/20 08:32 PM)

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26576158 - 04/03/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The choice tree is not a real entity.  It’s a hyper dimensional probability state where a previous decision status then uses will to determine an outcome based on that hyper dimensional choice tree.  A new reality is then established and so on.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26576340 - 04/03/20 10:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well I’m afraid anybody can pick a horse in the race and cheer for it.  :shrug:

Which again clarifies the reality of choice and free will.  It sounds like your intellectualizing reality using hindsight to justify determinism, kind of like a self proclaimed psychic that tells you your past after you disclose it.  I’m sorry but that’s just what I’m seeing here.




I suspect the world is both deterministic and random so it's can't be determined like a psychic. Things can be spoken of in likelihoods. Just because something might happen doesn't mean it will.


--------------------
rahz

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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26576908 - 04/04/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well I’m afraid anybody can pick a horse in the race and cheer for it.  :shrug:

Which again clarifies the reality of choice and free will.  It sounds like your intellectualizing reality using hindsight to justify determinism, kind of like a self proclaimed psychic that tells you your past after you disclose it.  I’m sorry but that’s just what I’m seeing here.




I suspect the world is both deterministic and random so it's can't be determined like a psychic. Things can be spoken of in likelihoods. Just because something might happen doesn't mean it will.




:cookiemonster:

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26576993 - 04/04/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well I’m afraid anybody can pick a horse in the race and cheer for it.  :shrug:

Which again clarifies the reality of choice and free will.  It sounds like your intellectualizing reality using hindsight to justify determinism, kind of like a self proclaimed psychic that tells you your past after you disclose it.  I’m sorry but that’s just what I’m seeing here.




I suspect the world is both deterministic and random so it's can't be determined like a psychic. Things can be spoken of in likelihoods. Just because something might happen doesn't mean it will.




:cookiemonster:




I'm not sure how to interpret the cookiemonster reply.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26577258 - 04/04/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm not sure how to interpret the cookiemonster reply.




:lol: well if you don’t want to acknowledge that man has a menu of options that he can use his will to make a choice and instead focus on the deterministic aspect of nature then idk where that leaves us.  Randomness is hidden determinism as you already know.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26577463 - 04/04/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"If you don't acknowledge that I am correct then I am out." - :lol:

Rahz is openly engaging with your points, it seems a little more disrespectful from your side.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26577669 - 04/04/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm not sure how to interpret the cookiemonster reply.




:lol: well if you don’t want to acknowledge that man has a menu of options that he can use his will to make a choice and instead focus on the deterministic aspect of nature then idk where that leaves us.  Randomness is hidden determinism as you already know.




I did acknowledge there are options and choices. You used the word will rather than "free will". Sure, we use our will to make choices.

One might suggest that taking a deeper look will reveal other perceptions rather than the one that's straight forward. The basic stance is "free will", "I want to do this because I choose to want to do this" and that's it, without taking a deeper look at the conditions that give rise to a particular choice.

Randomness is hidden determinism as I already know? If you want to assume things that's fine but don't tell me what I already know. To me the mystery is in the complexity and the randomness. If none of that is mysterious one might be in a better position to wax philosophical on the "facts" of free will, rather than suppose or suspect.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26577813 - 04/04/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:goodmorning:

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26577969 - 04/04/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Well, the question is not whether humans can do something rocks can't do, but what is the difference between will and free will. Once one gets to that it becomes a more complex topic with various ethical and psychological considerations. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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