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InvisibleYellow Pants
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what is violence
    #26576976 - 04/04/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

A brief definition from the Merriam Webster dictionary,

“1a : the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy”

Here is my brief definition,

The initiation of the use of force without consent

Two mma fighters let’s say get into a ring and try to beat the piss out of one another.  This is extreme aggression but not violent as both fighters agree to do it.  However, if a person pulls a gun at the head of somebody off the street and commands them to get into the ring and fight the willing mma person then this by definition is violence.  The armed person is using the threat of physical harm (murder) to force the person off the street into the ring without their consent. 

Any objections to these definitions?  Is society violent ?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26577145 - 04/04/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Novelty can violate conservatism.

Novelty can therefore be considered violent.

Elton John's Levon might be considered to be an exposition of a relationship between novelty and conservatism where Jesus wants to go to Venus leaving novelty far behind because the world isn't static, the violence of novelty being the norm.

Therefore Violence is anything novel.


Edited by Buster_Brown (04/04/20 12:24 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26577287 - 04/04/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Novelty can violate conservatism.

Novelty can therefore be considered violent.

Elton John's [url=https://www.bing.com/search?q=levon elton john lyrics&qs=SS&pq=levon elton john lyric&sc=4-22&cvid=98EF658567644953A495547F3F28F00B&FORM=QBRE&sp=1&ghc=1]Levon[/url] might be considered to be an exposition of a relationship between novelty and conservatism where Jesus wants to go to Venus leaving novelty far behind because the world isn't static, the violence of novelty being the norm.

Therefore Violence is anything novel.





So deterministic nature uses force without consent and it may be violent.  I was thinking more in the realm of society and human affairs.  We all know a tornado isn’t going to ask questions.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26577335 - 04/04/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

what of the violence of volcanos and storms
there is no intent to destroy or abuse,

should it not be:" the use of physical force by a person or people so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy"

so as to provide an agent that could have intent, "so as to" implying intent and therefore agency.

or are they reserving the term so that volcanos and storms can be violent.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26577380 - 04/04/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what of the violence of volcanos and storms
there is no intent to destroy or abuse,

should it not be:" the use of physical force by a person or people so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy"

so as to provide an agent that could have intent, "so as to" implying intent and therefore agency.

or are they reserving the term so that volcanos and storms can be violent.





Hm right.  With the Webster definition that allows volcanoes and storms to be violent, puts them into the ball game.  That would be a better definition as it relates to human affairs.

Actually I would have to add to that. 

“The initiation of physical force by a person or people as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy.”

“Initiation” because self defense is a reasonable justification for the use of force.  To defend oneself with force from illegitimate force. 

I call legitimate violence “aggression”.  Separating it from illegitimate aggression, or violence.  :shrug:


Edited by Yellow Pants (04/04/20 03:00 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26577577 - 04/04/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the meditation

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:


The initiation of the use of force without consent






If I define novelty as violent, and we agree that reciprocated novelty is a mark of an acceptable violence between two people in a relationship, then violence is not a label of disparagement, and like your example the extreme aggression between two fighters is an acceptable violence between them, but remains an unacceptable violence for people who do not reciprocate in kind or do not agree to the procedure e.g. the blind agreeing to a novel procedure to receive sight.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26577618 - 04/04/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So we might agree that a raised voice in a Church service is an unacceptable novelty/violence that is not reciprocated but perhaps leaves the instigator open to reprisals that they may find unacceptable such as a baby being forcibly hushed or the unruly being forcibly evicted.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26577863 - 04/04/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Buster Brown you sound as if all novelty should be considered violent ?  I may need you to help me understand where you are coming from there.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26577874 - 04/04/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what of the violence of volcanos and storms
there is no intent to destroy or abuse,

should it not be:" the use of physical force by a person or people so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy"

so as to provide an agent that could have intent, "so as to" implying intent and therefore agency.

or are they reserving the term so that volcanos and storms can be violent.




This is going in the right direction.  Natural phenomena - storms, earthquakes, volcanos, etc, are spoken of as violent , in my eyes, only in so far as it’s poetic license.  They can have a destructive effect on living things,  but so can a car crash,  but we don’t call the car violent.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: what is violence [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26577908 - 04/04/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Violence doesn't always imply immorality though, you can call forces without agency violent I suppose but you're perhaps right that that is something different. Violence can be of virtue or vice, but it usually means agency is employed. Whether that be in defense, subjugation, punishment, revenge, cunning, or straightforward malice. I'm not sure about including defense in that on second thought.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26578610 - 04/05/20 02:28 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Buster Brown you sound as if all novelty should be considered violent ?  I may need you to help me understand where you are coming from there.




Yes, I think all novelty is violence that can be distanced from by a Conservative thru non-reciprocation. How a protected existence of non-reciprocation works within a climate of Home-Owners-Associations I haven't figured out yet.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26578913 - 04/05/20 07:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

it is like a slow consensual storm is blowing over this conversation.

an aspect of violence I think is scale of the action, i.e. where the storm is bigger than the house that it destroys, where the bullet is faster than the man can run away from it, where the fist that connects stronger and faster and so it breaks bone and tissue.

this is an unfortunate result from an irresistible and disharmonious contact between strong and weak actors.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26578948 - 04/05/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is like a slow consensual storm is blowing over this conversation.

an aspect of violence I think is scale of the action, i.e. where the storm is bigger than the house that it destroys, where the bullet is faster than the man can run away from it, where the fist that connects stronger and faster and so it breaks bone and tissue.

this is an unfortunate result from an irresistible and disharmonious contact between strong and weak actors.




You seem like the type who would support the idea of an HOA as shelter from the violence of the storm of novelty.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26579006 - 04/05/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Violent mental  masterbation ...


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26579026 - 04/05/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
  masterbation ...




Thismorning I dreamt that someone, who had recently been operated on for cancer of the mouth, was looking at a manual in an attempt to fix a wheel. I guess novelty isn't a foreign incident even to the experienced temporal mechanic.


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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26579073 - 04/05/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Regarding human violence - how about the subject of emotional violence?


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: what is violence [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26579096 - 04/05/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think that can come in the form of fascism (anger at non compliance and non conformity of thought) and also in the more immediate and natural form of wrath (anger usually directed toward poor thinking and wrong action).


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: what is violence [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26579387 - 04/05/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

.  Probably some mystical types would say that ego itself is basically violent, and it would seem some good arguments could be made to support this view.

.  Oscar Wilde said "Everything is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power."
And of course maintaining power, is a violent process.
And evolution is based on both reproduction, sexual competition, & survival of the fittest, so sex itself, is based in violence.

.  So it would seem violence and peace are in some ways a rather dualist concept, that presumes they are total opposites, rather than interdependent: like the north & south poles of a magnet.

.  We associate violence with pain and presume the opposite is pleasure or total contentment.
.  But if we take evolution to be the larger context, we see that sex is motivated by the desire for pleasure and results in battles between males, often resulting in injury or death accompanied by pain. By looking at the larger context we see the interconnectedness of the supposed total opposites.
.  If we take conditioning as the context, then again we see the connection. In this case "the 2 magnetic poles" are the "carrot & the stick".
.  And of course none of this would be the case if our nervous systems weren't "wired" to respond in this way, "from the ground up".


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Re: what is violence [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26579397 - 04/05/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Regarding suicide (self violence) - someone once said that only ego would desire to annihilate itself.

It's interesting to contemplate that suicide is an egotistical act.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: what is violence [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26579425 - 04/05/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Trouble is that we've all got the unfortunate task of coping with one. That's just the stark reality of the situation.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
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Re: what is violence [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26579439 - 04/05/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

for me, just looking in the mirror feels like violence.

my mirror has a trigger.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26579584 - 04/05/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I appreciate the responses but I do have a problem with the recurring assertion that their is emotional violence and mental violence.  I can’t see your emotion or your thought, I only see the actions you take and the effects they have.  There is probably a good reason why we only criminalize those who actually murder as opposed to those who only feel like murdering or think about murdering.

I agree that certain emotional responses and thoughts are questionable to say the least but I’m not sure we can deal with that on a social level until we define what violence is in action.  Just my two cents.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26579627 - 04/05/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

if people first can't control violence towards themselves, then how can they be expected to control violence towards others? 

violent thoughts towards oneself can certainly provoke negative physiological reactions that manifest in a very real manner.

people tend to view their environments in terms of their own behavioral potential.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26579670 - 04/05/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Don’t get me wrong, ones self is the first thing to understand and explore.  But what comes after the fact is the selfs position amongst other people.  That is society and think it’s important to at least try and establish social consensus when it comes to moral and immoral behavior.  Otherwise it’s a behavioral free for all where people are unsure about right and wrong which makes shit behavior easier to manifest.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26579762 - 04/05/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is like a slow consensual storm is blowing over this conversation.

an aspect of violence I think is scale of the action, i.e. where the storm is bigger than the house that it destroys, where the bullet is faster than the man can run away from it, where the fist that connects stronger and faster and so it breaks bone and tissue.

this is an unfortunate result from an irresistible and disharmonious contact between strong and weak actors.




You seem like the type who would support the idea of an HOA as shelter from the violence of the storm of novelty.



whats a hoa?
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/HOA


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26580002 - 04/05/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
whats a hoa?




Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Home-Owners-Associations




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26580179 - 04/05/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

well I was once sucked into a BIA which is a business strip association in partnership with a larger municipality. started as secretary then did president for a few years yikes. lots of side walk planning there.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26580681 - 04/05/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with the definition in the dictionary. We're predators, of course we're violent. It's written into our DNA. We watch films and shows about violence. We read stories about violence. We watch people fight in rings. We're violent and I think that it's not necessarily something we should condemn. Should we condemn the violence perpetrated by the blacks under Apartheid? Should we condemn the violence of an abused wife who snaps and murders her husband? Should we condemn the perpetrated again child molesters and torturers? I don't think so. We're violent and we should be.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: what is violence [Re: Darwin23]
    #26580748 - 04/05/20 11:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
I agree with the definition in the dictionary. We're predators, of course we're violent. It's written into our DNA. We watch films and shows about violence. We read stories about violence. We watch people fight in rings. We're violent and I think that it's not necessarily something we should condemn. Should we condemn the violence perpetrated by the blacks under Apartheid? Should we condemn the violence of an abused wife who snaps and murders her husband? Should we condemn the perpetrated again child molesters and torturers? I don't think so. We're violent and we should be.




.  Seems you have equated violence with morality, and certainly the way many live, they might agree with you--if they gave a damn about morality.

.  Buddhism on the one hand indeed does have things to say about morality, but on the other hand claims the aim of the teachings is simply to reduce, & ultimately to eliminate suffering or stress (or what has also been called: "the peace that passeth understanding").
.  Thus Buddha supposedly said: "Anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other to die", and of course anger is the e-motion that mo-tivates violence.
.  In other words, the claim is that: those who pay close attention to how they feel will discover that feelings associated with violence and anger are actually unpleasant sensations.
This is indeed a different argument than a moral one.
.  Mike Tyson's life story, seems to be a case in point, as regards this view.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26581098 - 04/06/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
well I was once sucked into a BIA ... lots of side walk planning there.




Sidewalks for strong-actors being the Dark Net I suppose; where would you fit in?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26581328 - 04/06/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I do not know anything about darknet, fired up tor once on a machine 3 years ago - only once, not looking to fit in anywhere, except maybe one day a shack on a beach in the Mediterranean.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: what is violence [Re: Darwin23]
    #26581625 - 04/06/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
I agree with the definition in the dictionary. We're predators, of course we're violent. It's written into our DNA. We watch films and shows about violence. We read stories about violence. We watch people fight in rings. We're violent and I think that it's not necessarily something we should condemn. Should we condemn the violence perpetrated by the blacks under Apartheid? Should we condemn the violence of an abused wife who snaps and murders her husband? Should we condemn the perpetrated again child molesters and torturers? I don't think so. We're violent and we should be.





You don’t entertain the idea of consent as far as what is violent and what is not?

Or the idea that in defense of violence, ones aggressive actions are just?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26584575 - 04/07/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Some people like fighting...they got no issue with each other...they just like it...no issue...violence is not always bad. I did Krav Maga for a while and got broke fingers, fat lip, bloody noses weekly. I loved it...I didn't like hurting someone, but those guys weren't hurt by my actions...same here...brothers in blood. It was a healthy empowering experience.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: what is violence [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26589676 - 04/09/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

.    Seems rather hard to answer in the case of people whose sexuality is tied to violence and sadism.
.    Such as the famous painter Francis Bacon, who liked to get beat up by his sadistic boy friend, to the point of real injuries.
.    Interestingly his paintings became worth, million of dollars ( a rough guess), because of the art market and because people interpreted them as being about the human condition and not his perversion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what is violence [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26589686 - 04/09/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

so violence is not unfortunate if sought,
therefore it is about consent as well as intent,
but also the effect of a thing at a greater scale like a violent storm.
and you may consent to storms as well -
I think my wife likes them

or maybe being locked up inside with me is driving her nuts


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26589705 - 04/09/20 08:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

One might argue that part of the violence in case of Bacon, was the brutality of his childhood that set the pattern, and that the further violence was  his inability to escape his past. In other words his inability to process his past condemned him,  to reliving it, over and over again.

Most likely something of this sort goes on with many neuroses, and even with in more ordinary cases of internal conflict.

Sorry she's going nuts.


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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26596877 - 04/12/20 10:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Probably the the latter....I unfortunately don't have the luxury of being locked up. As essential to emergency response I go out and do my deal regardless.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: what is violence [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #26597478 - 04/13/20 09:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

hue, thank you for being in the world and doing what you do do.
I may not have said it before, but I mean it.


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Offlinemalfenderson
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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26599190 - 04/13/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

"Turning first, therefore, to force, we must see what force is. It is
an attack by some overpowering agency which cannot be resisted."

"Et ideo de vi imprimis videndum quid sit vis. Et sciendum quod vis est maioris rei impetus cui resisti non potest." (Bracton's Laws and Customs of England, http://amesfoundation.law.harvard.edu/Bracton/Unframed/Latin/v3/20.htm)

This is a sort of classical view, but now we'd say that whether or not it is resisted is a function of, nothing is really resisted, when you take a step, your foot moves down, but the earth moves up ever so imperceptibly, if we trust the calculations, it's just that it moves almost nothing compared with your foot moving down.

But the question most people are interested in is what is just force or unjust force, and many conflate the questions, e.g. violence is "unjust force" and just force is "self defense" or "law enforcement" or whatever, but law means the same as right, at least classically, so "right enforcement" would mean "just violence," which doesn't settle the question of what is right force and what is wrong force.


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Re: what is violence [Re: malfenderson]
    #26599734 - 04/14/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I am more concerned with what is right attitude than right force.


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Re: what is violence [Re: malfenderson]
    #26599800 - 04/14/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

malfenderson said:
But the question most people are interested in is what is just force or unjust force, and many conflate the questions, e.g. violence is "unjust force" and just force is "self defense" or "law enforcement" or whatever, but law means the same as right, at least classically, so "right enforcement" would mean "just violence," which doesn't settle the question of what is right force and what is wrong force.





Property rights.  Which begs the question what are property rights and how do we determine them socially?


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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26600645 - 04/14/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

by violently defending them?


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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26600772 - 04/14/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
by violently defending them?




But what is violence dammit!  Whether you are defending them violently or justly depends on what violence is.

:zomgwtf:


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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26600917 - 04/14/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

and what is justice?
are these both matters of perspective?
if so what is the smallest particle of perspective, or is perspective a field and not a particle.


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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26603313 - 04/15/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and what is justice?
are these both matters of perspective?
if so what is the smallest particle of perspective, or is perspective a field and not a particle.




Moral relativism.  The idea that there are no moral absolutes and all cultures even down to all individuals figure out their own moral standards.  Similar to a sort of wild Wild West free for all.

In the absence of social moral standards you will likely get a violent and oppressive group or person, like the church of old or the modern state, to “control” the society.  It is a theory that I’ve seen floated around anyhow.


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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26603460 - 04/15/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

my way or the bullies, eh


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Re: what is violence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26603492 - 04/15/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Says the moral relativist.  Let’s at least call it what it is.  :goodmorning:


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OfflineRedPirateRoberts
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Re: what is violence [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26618429 - 04/21/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why would you need to redefine violence, except for the purpose of personal ideology? Seems rather Orwellian to me, an attempt to control language to be right by default?

Words don't have singular definitions, that's inorganic thinking. Words exist on a practical continuum to communicate ideas. The ideoform precedes the word.

A great example is the word slut. It used to mean one thing, and then it was "taken back." Now everyone uses Thot to mean more or less the same thing that slut used to mean (though not rigidly, words are fuzzy little things). You can shift definitions and take back words all you want, society will just invent new ones, or repurpose old ones.

Violence is not unidefinitional, sometimes it means brutality, sometimes ferocity, sometimes savagery, sometimes force or vehemence. It's a constellation, a continuum.

I see this kind of thing all the time in Conlangs, people get exercised on the ambiguity of language, try to invent a logical, rational, fixed unidefinitional language, and what they get is an inexpressive, obtuse and mechanical language that no one wants to use.

The beauty and power of poetry, or a stirring speech, or a poignant ballad all rely on the ambiguity of the language, and the multi-definitional nature of words. That's how you can find words that mean and rhyme how you want them to mean and rhyme.

Not all of the problems we are trying to solve as a species are rational. Some are beautiful, and sterile precision is violence to beauty.

With that being said, if you have some kind of argument to make, you can freeze the definition, like saying: let violence = ..., which exists for the presentation of some analytical idea or narrative or some such.

Is society violent? Of course. Nature is red in tooth and claw, humans and society are outgrowths of nature. Is that such a bad thing? Tiger, tiger, burning bright, in the forest of the night, what immortal hand or eye, could frame thy fearful symmetry.

This is quite a bit like asking "is water wet?" There is no society in all of recorded history that wasn't founded on violence, and that didn't employ varying levels of violence internally and externally. There is also no "lower" order system in existence that is not violent in one way or another. All social animals, all social insects, even bacteria, even fungi are violent. Your immune system is violent to intruders. Violence is, and always has been, the de facto way to get anything done.

The only way that a person, or ideology, can claim to be "non-violent" is by redefining violence away from their objective, but that definition is purely local.

Violence is a word that can be moved about, it can mean physical, emotional, financial, legal, sexual and so on. We can denude it of ambiguity for utility, but there will always be some group, somewhere, that takes the inverse position.

Defining violence as being something done without consent just seems so much progressive "consent injection." It's the new buzzword. It's a kind of gray, Pratchetian Auditor practice of making everything utterly joyless and anodyne. The danger of any such practice is that ultimately it leads to the fetishisation of the inverse, and ultimately cynicalisation soon follows.

I think your use of the MMA example, what equates to proto-gladitorialism, is a perfect example of adjusting definitions to facilitate fetichisation of violence. One needs to redefine violence purely to alleviate pseudo-moral guilt at being thrilled and aroused by the portrayal of "violence." What in previous generations would have been castigated as the brute portrayal of crass savagery, is now a family entertainment opportunity. So what if we add death into the mix, I mean, after all, they consent?

It won't be too long before we cart out prisoners, I mean, after all they "consent" by virtue of having committed crimes? Right? Amiright? Before you claim this is a slippery slope fallacy, let's table the conversation for 20 years and see.

The minute you start drawing lines in the sand, you're tacitly agreeing that lines can be drawn. The rest is time. The line you draw today, will be moved tomorrow, inching ever closer and will bring about the exact inversion of your intent.

Such is the arc of the moral universe, it bends not towards justice, but depravity.

This is just a coup d'oeuil opinion. I don't suggest that I am right, in fact, I am probably totally wrong about everything I just said. Please don't take this as me trying to put words in OP's mouth, I am not suggesting OP suggested anything, what precedes is just where my mind went thinking about the question, and trying to put it into context to have some meaning based on my personal perspectives. Your miles to kilometers may vary. Void where prohibited by law. My opinions have been known to cause dryness, soreness, halitosis, psoriasis and death. Please read responsibly.


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Re: what is violence [Re: RedPirateRoberts]
    #26618951 - 04/21/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Whew, long post. Us guys on the internet have low attention spans you know. Have a little mercy! Maybe condense it to the most salient points if you plan on sticking around. It also makes it a little easier for some back and forth if posters don't feel like they have to respond to a mountain every time.

Or just do you but you might not get as much feedback. :lol:


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Re: what is violence [Re: RedPirateRoberts]
    #26619293 - 04/22/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedPirateRoberts said:


Is society violent? Of course. Nature is red in tooth and claw, humans and society are outgrowths of nature. Is that such a bad thing?




Public humiliation is evidently the recourse of choice in a system where contempt and sadism is natural, and evidently God likes to kill things. Lucky for us Jesus gave us the option  of resolving difficulties in a manner we don't mind being used against us, and what is more humiliating than death of the intellect?


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Re: what is violence [Re: RedPirateRoberts]
    #26619312 - 04/22/20 05:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It is compelling and poetically expressed,
I think I know what you mean, but to say "There is no society in all of recorded history that wasn't founded on violence..."
then you may need to explain several words.
are you actually talking about anthropological evidence of social groups or any social group with a common interest?

the definition of words helps clarify your position in respect of records as well as speculations, but by all means, mean what you say and say what you mean the way you see fit.


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