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Hobbyist
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26578788 - 04/05/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you've tripped several times in the last couple weeks, it's entirely possible you've just got tolerance build up. Keep in mind, when primal was dosing daily, he was taking hundreds of grams worth for desired effects.
I believe cubes tend to dry down to 6-7% of their wet mass instead of the 10% many people think of. now 3-4 percent doesn't seem monumental, but when you consider that's 30-40% of your expected dry dose it can be significant.
I don't understand why you think thawing and re-freezing your tea would negatively affect potency.
oxygen in the air could potentially affect it, but I wouldn't expect it to have a large effect.
If you don't let the ice cubes warm up before putting them in a plastic bag and keeping them in the freezer they won't freeze together. The only reason they would is if the outside of the cube melted slightly and was wet on the outside when they were frozen together.
I don't understand why you would put ice cube trays in plastic bags...
-------------------- Everything i say is completely hypothetical...
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: Hobbyist]
#26578832 - 04/05/20 06:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes that’s a fair point. So you reckon freezing the ice cubes and THEN putting into air-tight bags? I might split the next flush 50:50, then freeze half in trays and transfer to baggies when frozen, and the other half in trays inside baggies, and see if there is any noticeable diffeeence. And I definitely want to rule out tolerance; I have been dosing at 2 week intervals very successfully for at least 6 months, but the trip from actual fresh a few weeks back was super intense, while still being gentle and forgiving. Maybe it was so intense it necessitates more than my usual 2 week gap, so anything I’ve taken since then could have been rubbish just for that reason.
I think it’s probably a combination of a few things.
Cheers for responding DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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DJ Ed
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I think it’s probably a combination of a few things;
1. Weak mushrooms (the first flush was very wet, 93.7% water content, so a 55g fresh tea I had would have equated to 3.1g dry, not the expected 5.5g dry!
2. Tolerance build up.
3. Strange recent rips;,probably 5 out of 6 I’ve freaked on cannabis after years of synergy between cannabis and mushrooms; all my trips with this Mazatapec flush have been without cannabis.
4. Not storing the ice cubes in air tight bags once frozen (going to also try bagging the trays while freezing), to rule out oxygen degrading the actives
5. I’m going to make the tea using 1:40 quantity of citric acid, instead of my usual “lemon Tek tea” of pouring a random amount of lemon juice over the mushrooms before boiling in water.
6. Thawing method: first time I let them thaw out, which was a HUGE mistake; 2nd time rather than boil them in extra water as I’d planned, I blended them in a pina colada smoothie, which was actually awesome. But I will boil in water next time just for science......
Thanks for responding DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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RichardCranium
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26578867 - 04/05/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I put the cubes in a metal measuring cup and place that in a hot water bath in a bowl. It melts very fast and seems to work pretty well. I just take that in a shot. I also don't believe there would be any difference with airtight containers or potency loss after it's all frozen. I just think that in the initial preparation the oxidation of the converted chemicals could be significant for any material not used or frozen immediately. I may also be wrong though and it could be totally due to the fast absorption of the lemon tek and the tolerance factor.
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DJ Ed
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I might also try not slicing the mushrooms up before I boil them. I’ll mash them instead once the mixture is bubbling away...
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26580196 - 04/05/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry for your loss friend. Live and learn right?
That's why they call it a "flush"
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PrimalSoup
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26580783 - 04/05/20 11:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DJ Ed said: @PrimalSoup freezes his fresh mushroom tea in a bottle; bottle has to be thawed out to pour of an individual dose. The thawing and re-freezing will have a detrimental effect on potency.
Not true, within some unknown limits it has no effect whatsoever I've ever noticed. If you thaw and refreeze in like an hour it definitely doesn't matter, although the taste starts to go from merely bad to utterly vile eventually.
Quote:
RichardCranium said: So I'm just repeating something I read in another thread, but the extraction (which is done with the water) causes rapid oxidation on the converted psilocin (converted from psilocybin by the lemon).
Nah. Neither lemon tek or acidified tea teks (see acidic tea tek) convert psilocybin to psilocin, and the actives that go into the water are undegraded, stay in the water undegraded for years if frozen. If you make tea or lemon tek fresh fruits you benefit from enhanced extraction of psilocin as well, some of which is lost to oxidation while drying. Ordinary tea works just as well provided you use about 10 times as much water to account for the lesser solubility over acidic tek. If you want to know exactly look here: Gold: The Mushroom Entheogen - The Measure of the Mushroom. That's what got me started with acidic tea in the first place. 
What lemon tek apparently does is improve the digestion in one pass of the actives because it attaches citrate compounds to them (there's some chemical name for this), which thus increases the % in the bloodstream because the digestive tract absorbs those citrated actives more easily, which makes the dosage stronger - and/or or at least come on faster and last less long - which most people find to be the same sort of thing.
There are studies demonstrating this uptake process in rats, at least, listed somewhere in the vast history of posts here. And what you find is that in both rats and humans about 50% of the actives, if not treated with citric acid, are excreted undigested. So the improvement could be as much as 2x stronger (which if memory serves is what people typically report), and that's worth looking into. 
Not ragging on you in particular, RC, you just triggered me. 
Also, well:
Quote:
especially boiling water where the oxygen is being forcibly separated from the hydrogen by the heating process.
If that were actually true we'd all be driving hydrogen powered cars by now. I fucking wish. 
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (04/06/20 12:12 AM)
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#26580829 - 04/06/20 12:03 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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No pal, I appreciate your constant help! It’s just a shame I didn’t fully listen! So I’ve got a tub of citric acid ready for the next flush, and following a previous thread I should aim for a ratio of 1:40 citric acid to final weight of boiled liquid. Straight into ice cube trays into sealed baggies. That will lock in the actives. Somewhere along the way, I started to believe that the lemon juice was converting psilocybin partially into psilocin, but never really grasped what it all meant; thank you for clarifying.
It’s not the end of the world, just really disappointing I got something so easy so wrong! Fortunately I have frozen dried stocks of B+, GT, Ecuador, and half of my last Mazatapec harvest, s some rye grain on the way from one of the Shroomery’s German sponsors 
The other shame is this lockdown, I’m at home for an extended spell, and I should be tripping regularly like a good ‘un, but I’m now having to rule out possible tolerance!!
No P.S.< thank you for explaining, once again.
❤️ DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#26580835 - 04/06/20 12:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Haha never knew that’s why it’s called a flush! Now you mention it, I have flushed a few harvests into the bin.......thank the lord for agar and LC.
Edited by DJ Ed (04/06/20 12:07 AM)
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26580841 - 04/06/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Glad you got that little joke there 
Sounds like you got that technique down. A very valuable skill in the trippin bizz
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PrimalSoup
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26580846 - 04/06/20 12:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DJ Ed said: Somewhere along the way, I started to believe that the lemon juice was converting psilocybin partially into psilocin, but never really grasped what it all meant; thank you for clarifying.
Unfortunately like some simple seeming things it's actually not. I thought it might be true but the chemical energy just isn't there and no matter how hard you search for some legit research saying it does you can't find any - just a lot of people repeating what they've read or heard - like boiling destroys actives. That last one still propagates today. 
Peace on you man, may your grows reward your expectations.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26580861 - 04/06/20 12:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I’m feeling so much happier this morning already 
One final coffee then off to thaw out a lot of ice cube trays before another day “working from home”.
I’ve always boiled the hell out of my mushrooms, and never noticed any reduction in potency 
Just re-read the citric acid post too; seems the ideal ratio is 1:50, so for my last tea made from 600g wet at about 90% water content, I would have used 12g citric acid, and about 100-200ml water (I’ll work that one out when I have another flush to process...)
Have a great day, sir DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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PrimalSoup
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26582056 - 04/06/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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1:50 is easy to figure out on the fly. Beyond that the brew just got harder to tolerate but no more potent.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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RichardCranium
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26582158 - 04/06/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks for that Primal Soup. Maybe the bioavailability change is what caused the two things to be conflated since they have effectively similar consequences. Since the conversion isn't actually happening degradation shouldn't be a worry, but out of curiosity, psilocin is much less stable and vulnerable to oxidation than psilocybin, yes?
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numnum59
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Quote:
RichardCranium said: Thanks for that Primal Soup. Maybe the bioavailability change is what caused the two things to be conflated since they have effectively similar consequences. Since the conversion isn't actually happening degradation shouldn't be a worry, but out of curiosity, psilocin is much less stable and vulnerable to oxidation than psilocybin, yes?
yes, thats why there is less psilocin in dried mushrooms. it degrades due to the drying process.
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26583320 - 04/07/20 06:30 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Real interesting article, PrimalSoup 
So the key:-
But psilocin has difficulty dissolving in water, and psilocybin is easily dissolved in water. Since psilocin is especially unstable in alkaline solution, I felt that an acidified aqueous solution would be the best to use as a solvent
Boom!
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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numnum59
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: DJ Ed]
#26637284 - 04/29/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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casting necromancy spells on this thread but i am about to try some of the shrooms cubes i made. ill report back
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: numnum59]
#26637933 - 04/30/20 12:00 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Please do pal, all mine from r=two flushes got thawed out and binned a while ago, but only because the harvests were weak; trying to save them with an alcohol extraction, but I’m dying to try the frozen cubes - got a few weeks to go yet until next flush ready......
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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Shroom_lover
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26889295 - 08/19/20 11:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you so much! I was having trouble finding a good tek.
Couple questions:
1) when to add the acid? Before or after heating?
2) in the paper you gave by gold says psylocibin turns into psylocin if heating it in acidic solution. Is it correct? If it is then the tea will be pure psylocin?
Thanks in advance!
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DJ Ed
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Re: storage of shroom tea ice cubes [Re: Shroom_lover]
#26889317 - 08/20/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Add the citric acid first. Psilocybin gets converted by the body into psilocin; I have never heard of this working the opposite way round.
Take care DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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