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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26573565 - 04/02/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

How much attention do you need to pay to stop your thoughts? Or even to be aware you have stopped your thoughts?

To what extent are our thoughts "us" if we cannot control them in any ultimate sense? And how many act based on what they think?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26573679 - 04/02/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

the whole notion of stopping one's thoughts is kind of absurd, which you may have been saying the same thing I am saying:
anything in mind is thought - or - mind is thoughts, and they are not other than the self.

the flow of thoughts can be hectic or smooth, and you can sort of navigate that by instinct, but you cannot control it or pretend that it is other than what it is. You can practice your style or ways of being and be more consistent about that, but to be honest, you are thought. I am thought, and I am not in control, but I see where I am, and I can be honest about it since that is easier than fighting.

each person has associations already in mind for practically any stimulus, including a predisposition to this very argument. "can a person control thought?" what follows passively or actively, sleepily or awakenedly is associative thinking, thoughts linked in series by way of similarity (resonance) and habit (repetition based reinforcement of the link).

which is oddly funny because control is therefore the notion of one thought exercising dominion over subsequent thinking, while each moment of thinking is equal to any other, neither more in control or less in control but immersed in life, sensations, feelings, attitudes, habits. those thoughts are taking a ride on the same chassis as the self, lurching reflexively from moment to moment in a stream of self.


anyway, as for coronavirus, please use a mask and keep your hands clean and do not touch your face when you are out and about, and mostly, be aware, that is why you are wearing a mask, so you don't put virus into your eye nose or mouth.

you could wear any mask - if it prevents you from touching your face. even that of a clown. however a medical mask is more fair to the people around you and provides the right idea to anyone looking at you.



--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26573702 - 04/02/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So what are you saying, that man gets a get out of jail free card because trees compete for sunlight?

You said “nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature” 

We’ve already made some progress with this.  Slavery is pretty much rejected universally as immoral for example.  And I know you referenced the desire for improvement, but you can’t really say that and also state that man is inevitably violent because of nature.




Describing human behavior without rose colored glasses isn't the same as condoning it. The desire to be more (or less) is a facet of possibility, and can have mixed results. So it's "in the mix" and is just as valid a mode of thought or being as any other. Humans certainly don't generally give out get out of jail free cards because it's pointless to blame. We impose our will on others in an attempt to restrict or modify behavior as we see fit.

Slavery is rejected for the time being because we're in a period of excess.

I remember a video where a bear was trying to help an injured baby deer. I think many higher animals are capable of compassion beyond their species. Humans are perhaps different in that some of them are able to maintain such behavior.




Exactly, free will.  We’re not merely deterministic processes like “nature”.  Therefore, removing accountability from man and placing it onto “nature” just sounds like something somebody with a violent agenda would say to further push their immoral agenda.

I do wonder about that slavery comment.  Why do you believe that?




I didn't say we got to pick our desires, so we will disagree about free will for now. And who said nature was wholly deterministic? There is a difference between accountability and blame. Since I don't believe in God, accountability means answering to and conforming to someone else's expectations. Natural law is an interesting idea and I try to adhere to it within my perception of what it is, but it's not an objective idea and accountability always includes a second party anyway.

If the world went to hell slavery would come roaring back. Do you believe it wouldn't?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26573758 - 04/02/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Still 0 cases in my team. A positive reminder when monotony starts to set in around preventive measures.

I have had to furlow many people due to reduced business. Which is tough to do.

Our CEO gave himself a 50% pay cut and VP a 30% cut which is admirable. That money is being used to support payroll for those below. This is not a government mandate. Far as I can tell it is just a human maneuver to keep people employed and at a reasonable rate.

The CEO is originally from Canada so that may help inform his humanity. The less people that are on unemployment the better tho 👍


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26573828 - 04/02/20 06:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
If the world went to hell slavery would come roaring back. Do you believe it wouldn't?





It’s certainly possible.  A lot of things are possible.  :shrug:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26573857 - 04/02/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the flow of thoughts can be hectic or smooth, and you can sort of navigate that by instinct, but you cannot control it or pretend that it is other than what it is. You can practice your style or ways of being and be more consistent about that, but to be honest, you are thought. I am thought, and I am not in control, but I see where I am, and I can be honest about it since that is easier than fighting.

each person has associations already in mind for practically any stimulus, including a predisposition to this very argument. "can a person control thought?" what follows passively or actively, sleepily or awakenedly is associative thinking, thoughts linked in series by way of similarity (resonance) and habit (repetition based reinforcement of the link).

which is oddly funny because control is therefore the notion of one thought exercising dominion over subsequent thinking, while each moment of thinking is equal to any other, neither more in control or less in control but immersed in life, sensations, feelings, attitudes, habits. those thoughts are taking a ride on the same chassis as the self, lurching reflexively from moment to moment in a stream of self.






:waitwtf:

I’m sorry probably getting more off topic but redgreenvines this is simply an alarming passage.

The body is not a thought I’m afraid to inform you.  Thought is a luxury (or vice).


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26573867 - 04/02/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think he's right actually and I think the view is supported both by modern methodology seekers like neurologists as well as old methodology seekers like Buddhists

The only thing I will say that differs, is that I think we may have some degree of control. That our exposure to certain ideas, concepts, and events may be purely random but they may not. And if they are not, it begs the question of cause and effect which is where I get interested personally


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26573901 - 04/02/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

As I see it everyone has their different pet theories and modalities of expression around this topic, as I see it there is only half a consensus anywhere partly just due variations in the way language is employed and expressed.

Thread has drifted seriously far from corona now.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26573915 - 04/02/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I gave my Corona update. How's everyone else doing?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26574037 - 04/02/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Binge watching Curb Your Enthusiasm and doing a few bits and bobs of gardening work. People seem to have calmed down a bit and got into the Corona routine more now. Business as usual for me in many ways as I am a solitary person.

Pretty sure no one really knows what's going on or has any solid answers. It is interesting to watch the machine attempt to figure itself out and in some ways I feel oddly grateful to have been involved in such a major event at some point in my life. Glad to be out of the real meat grinders in this world too.

Watched a bit on the news last night about how badly prisoners and wardens would be effected by the Corona virus and they were talking about case by case early release mostly. I think society is at a very critical juncture in history right about now, if something is not done soon it will definitely be too late.

Batten down the hatches. Lord Yama is on the road.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26574171 - 04/02/20 10:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

To “YellowPants”,


About nature being violent and that humans are by, being interdependent with nature, are therefore also violent.  Is true to an extent.
About your proposition that just because nature is deterministic - that it follows that humans are not, I find largely false.

The body, composed of cells, which perform cellular processes as determined by the patterns in the sequences of their nucleobases.

From that genetic directive ,  the biological systems of the world follow.  Your body - the free will you have, is very select in its options.

Obviously,  you cannot stop the directive to specific cells composing organelles from performing their function, and so forth and so on - to the cardiovascular system - you cannot stop yourself from breathing totally.  If you try to hold your breath you pass out and the operation takes up again while the part of you - you seem to be implying is yourself - shuts off temporarily .  If you take stopping breathing to the furthest extreme, you die.  The digestive system - you cannot stop eating or drinking,  not for long or you die.  You cannot turn off the sense organs without forever loosing them - the eyes will see wheather opened or closed , the nose will smell whether closed or open - it with the mouth will Continue being gates to the lungs and stomach, the ears will hear something regardless of if you plug them up or not.  The epidermis will always be responsible for the tactical sensation of contact/touch - wheather numbed or in perfect working order.

We live in a 5 fold sensory jungle of illusion, or 6 if you count mind/psyche/self or whatever you choose.  Within that limited illusion, you can choose from this or that, here or there, completely dualistic constructions from which 90% of ordinary experience is confined too.

Free will is for those organisms that have yet to reach the prescience of Laplace’s demon. 

I take away your water, and you simply halt most and then eventually, all function
Take away the oxygen out of your surrounding air, the same thing
Take away the environmental controls that are Goldilocks good for you, and you fall victim to the same fate.

All these organisms are driven - via the prime directive or superconducting principle that is antecedent to our sense of experience.  Expressed at an atomic and genetic level.

That’s why you cant choose to stop your cells from multiplying, that’s why you cant choose to not shit after you eat, its why you cant choose to not breath, its why you cant choose to stop your heart beat by will - sure you can shift circumstances and situations within the 5-6 fold sensory jungle to cause a shift in the normal pattern of things, but not forever.

That’s you you cant stop yourself from being born, from growing up, from getting sick, from dying, from dreaming, from sleeping, from being driven to mate - or at least, have relations, from being social, from needed the requisites of the body, from wanting pleasure, and averting from pain and displeasure.  It’s why a drug feeling cant last forever, its why you get hungry, its why you get full, its why, its simply why.

Free will - is not free, after the rounds and rounds of living life, it becomes diluted by conditioning, a conditioning that is for all intensive purposes driven by the incessant structuring and ever growing complexity of connections being made neuronaly and more.  This accounts for why you think what you think - none of it happens randomly.  It’s why you feel what you feel - and why the range of what you can feel and think is limited in some sense. 

Try and think something no one ever has, try to feel something no one ever has, etc.  Evolution is different however -the sum of the changes that worked over time on a level of alleles and smaller .

Free will as You call it -
It can be fought for, it can be retaken, its how we glimpse the truth of what we call ourselves, wheather on the level of body, or the mechanics of the mind and its states of consciousness etc.   

I am not positing nature over nurture or vice versa. I’m not even compelled by that construct besides its evidently useful application in the view of relativity/ordinary world and life.  It’s dualistic, so its by default, limited in its application as far as it being totally true.  We love psychedelics, and dreaming and altered states and religio-scie/quan-mysticism for the contrasting views to the norms of what we already have.  By the law of the unity of opposites we can know something from either side of a things spectrum, ordinary mundane things can be known in an unordinary state and vice versa -  they both show each other in a new light , thus helping complement each other and themselves. However,

But what more can you do than reflect like a mirror to what already was is or will be, to know the true nature of the phenomena, far apart from deluded views.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/03/20 05:03 AM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26574538 - 04/03/20 04:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I said that? Don't tend to think the will is free but only partially so. You are going to be fighting a lot of directives unless you fall into lock step with self, it's really impossible to say how much influence an individual can have on the process of self seeking. I myself can only have sympathy with his clear lack of power over the greater forces in the world. He fights a losing battle (if he fights).

There have been so many threads about free will though. At least attempt to link your theory to the subject matter.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit] * 1
    #26574876 - 04/03/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure what to think about the CDCs original recommendation that masks "aren't helpful". It's gone 180 degrees and masks are being recommended. They're even being enforced in Texas from what I understand. And a study taking place in Germany in a hard hit town is indicating survivability on surfaces is low. They were unable to find any trace of the virus in one household, on fur, couch, doorknobs, etc. This contradicts other studies that suggest the virus survives up to 21 days on surfaces.

And while this coronavirus is novel in it's action, it's still a coronavirus. It probably still has the same shape, size, molecular density as other corona viruses which should be well understood. So why there has been the confusion about it's airborne potential I'm not sure. If masks were in short supply (which they were/are) the responsible thing to do would have been to be honest and distribute information on how to make masks.

I spoke with my PA friend again. According to him there are CV19 specific tests but the vast majority of testing has been for general coronavirus markers. This may or may not explain why some people experience no symptoms, and it's impossible to say how many of the positive test results are for CV19 as opposed to other coronaviruses.

It just seems like a clusterfuck, well beyond the error of not stocking enough masks for an epidemic.

Anyway, in other news, I'm starting to see people wearing masks now. I went to an old commercial job site and found a handful of nearly new masks in the attic there. I handed out a few and kept a couple for myself. Streets here in NC are notably lighter on traffic since the lockdown started last Monday. It's quiet at night. I'm beginning to read about food shortages in other parts of the country. I'm reading that they could become common everywhere. Then I read the opposite, that the US will have plenty of food. There doesn't seem to be any reliable information.

One paper I read states that the death rate in several areas is .66% which would line up with SKs death rate. Then I see 10% in Italy. I've seen reports where they're listing deaths as coronavirus, regardless of the actual cause of death, because they need to "inflate the numbers". Once again, contradictory information.

At any rate, it's beginning to look like the cure will be worse than the disease. In hindsight, the retired and those with compromised immune systems should have been quarantined earlier and the young should have continued to work. Along with the widespread use of masks I believe this would have flattened the curve without devastating the economy. The absence of a few billion dollars in masks has resulted in the loss of trillions. Doh.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26574912 - 04/03/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think he's right actually and I think the view is supported both by modern methodology seekers like neurologists as well as old methodology seekers like Buddhists

The only thing I will say that differs, is that I think we may have some degree of control. That our exposure to certain ideas, concepts, and events may be purely random but they may not. And if they are not, it begs the question of cause and effect which is where I get interested personally




if you care about something, you move towards it, you immerse in it, your habits conform to it.
if you care about something else, you move towards that/or build it, you immerse and change.  That is the control, interest and conforming or harmonizing to the nature of the thing you are interested in.

Other types of control are mostly about posturing, defensive limiting, social aggrandizement, politics etc. all really reflexive.

With Coronavirus, we need to conform to these 3 things:
1) social distancing (prevents aerosol viral transfer),
2) mask usage (which PRIMARILY prevents touching the face),
3) good hand washing, and awareness of what you touch (because 99.9% coronavirus is picked up on surfaces you touch). 

be interested in that stuff, and get in step with it.
that the key stuff to understand.


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26574932 - 04/03/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1) social distancing (prevents aerosol viral transfer),
2) mask usage (which PRIMARILY prevents touching the face),
3) good hand washing, and awareness of what you touch (because 99.9% coronavirus is picked up on surfaces you touch).




99.9%? You seem very sure.

Coronaviruses in general are contracted through the air and have low surface survivability. Whether this coronavirus is novel in those respects I'm not sure. Why are you?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26575004 - 04/03/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The head doctor of one of the most prestigious NYC khospitals declares that in this video


He manages teams that work with the most serious cases of covid, and they only use n-95 when actually adjusting tubing into the pharynx or nose which can cause an aerosol incident.


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26575055 - 04/03/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting. It contradicts the CDCs current advice but thanks for posting it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #26575140 - 04/03/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Scientists here in the UK seem to be still telling us that mask usage is a waste of time for the general populace but RGV's point about it primarily preventing touching the face seems like a good one. I suspect the reality is that they have not yet enough masks to reach the general public, nor the experience required to arrive at a consensus. It seems likely that they will start recommending that the general public use masks here once they attain better supplies to me.

The reason for the death rate figures being so variable seems to be primarily related to testing methodologies in different countries. Although I'm not sure that explains why the SK rate is so low. Here in Europe, Germany was the country that primarily supplied testing to other countries and so they have higher levels of testing going on there. Other countries are engaged in the process of building national supply lines from the ground up. Communication between public and government here in the UK has been very sketchy for awhile now but they appear to be improving on the matter.

There has been a lot of infighting between European member countries over this, apparently both Spain and Italy have made threats about leaving the EU over the way it has been handled. They don't feel they are getting the support they deserve as member states. I think the EU will either go the direction of closer union, the supposed end game, as a result of it, or will become more split.

Some nordic countries have chosen not to lock down to the same level as other countries. Whether this is because of slower spreading of viral infections or an economic decision that they stay the course with (the claim) time will tell. Wealthy economies are clearly scared of ceding ground to other economies in this time of lock down. Resource control springing from technological development is the primary thing that has allowed them to stay on top of other countries.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26575178 - 04/03/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I think he's right actually and I think the view is supported both by modern methodology seekers like neurologists as well as old methodology seekers like Buddhists

The only thing I will say that differs, is that I think we may have some degree of control. That our exposure to certain ideas, concepts, and events may be purely random but they may not. And if they are not, it begs the question of cause and effect which is where I get interested personally




if you care about something, you move towards it, you immerse in it, your habits conform to it.
if you care about something else, you move towards that/or build it, you immerse and change.  That is the control, interest and conforming or harmonizing to the nature of the thing you are interested in.

Other types of control are mostly about posturing, defensive limiting, social aggrandizement, politics etc. all really reflexive.







What is this "it" you say.  "It" is the environment, the world, and the body.  You move yourself towards it.  These are metaphors describing a direct experience which is very much not the metaphor.  I use logic, imagination to further interact with the world.  Meaning my body and the sensible environment.  Thought and the fact we are talking about this means there is free will.  People are responsible for their body, its actions, and the effects of those actions.  :shrug:


Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
To “YellowPants”,


About nature being violent and that humans are by, being interdependent with nature, are therefore also violent.  Is true to an extent.
About your proposition that just because nature is deterministic - that it follows that humans are not, I find largely false.

The body, composed of cells, which perform cellular processes as determined by the patterns in the sequences of their nucleobases.
.





No, I said man isn't merely a deterministic process.  Therefore, to state nature is deterministic/violent and that is why man is violent isn't necessarily true.  I didn't use the word "necessarily" before, perhaps that is the source of confusion. 

There will always be a battle on this subject between those who side with determinism and those who side with freedom.  But the fact that we are typing on computers talking about this suggests that "the point" of this experience is to explore freedom.  Why is man more evolved than other species, because he was a determinist ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26575256 - 04/03/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

"what is it that you move towards?", you ask me.

it is any thing, activity, physical resource, method, attitude, technique, person, etc. (that is why I used the general term "it".)

your interest in "it" determines if you are attracted enough to approach.

approaching is not just by your feet taking steps or your mouse moving on a table, but often it is your whole being adjusting to the position, shape, mood, rhythm, color and movement, of the "it" towards which you are joining.

that is the control that we have. and we can further develop our interest in whatever "it" we care about in order to more completely take it on.

even with all our preicise muscular control, which we can practice to improve, and our precise diction, which we can practice to improve, our real control is limited to a kind of tropism towards what we care about, and anything else that looks so well controlled is a matter of practice.


--------------------
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