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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Enlil]
    #26580414 - 04/05/20 08:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Primaries dont mean much. Moving actual elections does. The nparties nhave their own primary process, and one is more fair than the other.
Ask Bernie


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26580463 - 04/05/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Article II?  I don't see the relevance of that.




Article II is relevant because it provides the only guidance on the topic, in Article II, section 1, clause 2:

Quote:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.




Which means that a state legislature can pass a law that says all electoral votes for this state must vote republican, and all electoral votes for the state vote republican. That's it. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, apart from the PR damage.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Primaries dont mean much. Moving actual elections does. The nparties nhave their own primary process, and one is more fair than the other.
Ask Bernie




You are 100% correct. Elections don't mean much when they can be cancelled. And the parties are well within their rights to cancel primaries, just like states are well within their rights to cancel elections.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #26580582 - 04/05/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

R.I.P.Zappa said:
Biden is most likely finished now, as in no contest, now that trump is adopting Bernie's health care plan.

Like Jimmy pointed out, "looks like the republicans listened to Bernie better than the democrats did."





Holy shit!  Watch from 9:05 - 10:25 if you want to hear it from the Trump administration itself.  :jawdrop:

Meanwhile, Democrats want to reopen the healthcare markets for people who just lost their jobs, their healthcare, and their source of income.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26580645 - 04/05/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

Which means that a state legislature can pass a law that says all electoral votes for this state must vote republican, and all electoral votes for the state vote republican. That's it. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, apart from the PR damage.





And your only source for this outlandish theory is a cursory reading of a small part of the U.S. Constitution?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
states are well within their rights to cancel elections.



Source for the notion that states can cancel federal elections?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26580652 - 04/05/20 10:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So, let's go over that in detail.

Family First act: They will reimburse your testing, not treatment, testing.

CARES act: They will give you $1200 (I think they skimmed over that bit to make it seem like a different bill), and then, as the democrats forced into the bill, they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.

What's new? This is that same corporate stimulus bill, re-spun. As well as the thing where they announced they wouldn't cover treatment.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26580662 - 04/05/20 10:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.




You think an ER is legally required to treat anyone who walks in?  That's not true.  You think that people who can't afford an ER and are treated by one get reimbursed by the government?  That's not true either.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Enlil]
    #26580663 - 04/05/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Which means that a state legislature can pass a law that says all electoral votes for this state must vote republican, and all electoral votes for the state vote republican. That's it. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, apart from the PR damage.





And your only source for this outlandish theory is a cursory reading of a small part of the U.S. Constitution?





I think I'm on the right side of Russel's teapot this time. Can you provide me an alternate reading, or relevant caselaw, which would disprove what I consider to be fairly simple language?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
states are well within their rights to cancel elections.



Source for the notion that states can cancel federal elections?





I never said a state was cancelling a federal election. I was simply saying that states are free to assign the state electoral votes as the legislature sees fit, as long as the people who are casting those votes are not current political representatives of the states.

Individual states have no obligation to let their citizens vote.

EDIT:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.




You think an ER is legally required to treat anyone who walks in?  That's not true.  You think that people who can't afford an ER and are treated by one get reimbursed by the government?  That's not true either.




If they like medicare dollars, I believe they are subject to EMTALA


Edited by Kryptos (04/05/20 10:18 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26580682 - 04/05/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, let's go over that in detail.

Family First act: They will reimburse your testing, not treatment, testing.



And also 14-day paid leave for American workers affected by the pandemic, and increased funding for food stamps.

Which is a shitload better than people got before.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
CARES act: They will give you $1200 (I think they skimmed over that bit to make it seem like a different bill), and then, as the democrats forced into the bill, they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.



First of all, as Enlil already noted, taxpayers aren't on the hook for emergency room services (the patient actually is).  And this also expands the eligibility for unemployment insurance and provides people with an additional $600 per week on top of the unemployment amount determined by each state. Gig workers and freelancers are covered by unemployment insurance for the first time.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26580693 - 04/05/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:


Individual states have no obligation to let their citizens vote.



I'm not sure if you're trolling, but states absolutely do have the obligation to let citizen's vote.  For starters, the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments create such an obligation.  Statutory obligations also exist including the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

As far as whether a state legislature can choose the electors, sure...they can under federal law, but every state has specific rules about that, usually in the state constitutions.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Enlil]
    #26581051 - 04/06/20 05:32 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, let's go over that in detail.

Family First act: They will reimburse your testing, not treatment, testing.



And also 14-day paid leave for American workers affected by the pandemic, and increased funding for food stamps.

Which is a shitload better than people got before.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
CARES act: They will give you $1200 (I think they skimmed over that bit to make it seem like a different bill), and then, as the democrats forced into the bill, they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.



First of all, as Enlil already noted, taxpayers aren't on the hook for emergency room services (the patient actually is).  And this also expands the eligibility for unemployment insurance and provides people with an additional $600 per week on top of the unemployment amount determined by each state. Gig workers and freelancers are covered by unemployment insurance for the first time.




So I take it you are now completely in favor of Pelosi's corporate bailout? Because this is literally the same exact bills.

An enlil has yet to explain how the taxpayer doesn't end up paying for a poor uninsured person that goes to the ER, receives legally mandated treatment, and cannot afford to pay. Blood from a stone.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:


Individual states have no obligation to let their citizens vote.



I'm not sure if you're trolling, but states absolutely do have the obligation to let citizen's vote.  For starters, the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments create such an obligation.  Statutory obligations also exist including the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

As far as whether a state legislature can choose the electors, sure...they can under federal law, but every state has specific rules about that, usually in the state constitutions.




I see nothing in the 15th, 19th, 24th, or 26th amendments, nor the VRA, that guarantees the right to vote for president. Simply that the right to vote cannot be based on, in order, race, gender, payment, age, or race again. Can you show me where any of those guarantees that state electors must be chosen by popular vote?

So...yeah, the state legislature needs to pass a law/amend the state constitution to assign electors to the republican candidate. Which can be done with either a republican state legislature/governor, or a supermajority in the state legislature. Which is an accurate political description of I wanna say 26 states, controlling a total electoral count of 219.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26581339 - 04/06/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So I take it you are now completely in favor of Pelosi's corporate bailout? Because this is literally the same exact bills.



No, why would you think that?  I've already said many times I think it is a massive gift to corporations.  I was very specifically talking about the Family First act provisions that you didn't mention, and the parts of the CARES act provisions that goes to Main St.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26582232 - 04/06/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So I take it you are now completely in favor of Pelosi's corporate bailout? Because this is literally the same exact bills.



No, why would you think that?  I've already said many times I think it is a massive gift to corporations.  I was very specifically talking about the Family First act provisions that you didn't mention, and the parts of the CARES act provisions that goes to Main St.




Because you're currently supporting it. Again, why do these already have the president's signature? BECAUSE THIS IS THE STIMULUS BILL.

The provisions that you support are the ones that were added in after Pelosi delayed the bill to force McConnell to add them. Used to be the bill was only a cash payment (for CARES), and only covered Coronavirus testing with zero leave (for FFRCA).

How Jimmy Dore made you think the republicans did any of this is beyond me. I never thought you'd be so thoroughly bamboozled.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26582747 - 04/06/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So I take it you are now completely in favor of Pelosi's corporate bailout? Because this is literally the same exact bills.



No, why would you think that?  I've already said many times I think it is a massive gift to corporations.  I was very specifically talking about the Family First act provisions that you didn't mention, and the parts of the CARES act provisions that goes to Main St.



Because you're currently supporting it.



No.  I only support the parts I mentioned.  I'll say it yet again, overall the bill is a massive giveaway to corporations.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The provisions that you support are the ones that were added in after Pelosi delayed the bill to force McConnell to add them.



Let's be clear about what I said I support.  I said "Democrats want to reopen the healthcare markets for people who just lost their jobs, their healthcare, and their source of income".  Instead people got free testing, 14-days of paid leave, and reimbursement to hospitals for treating uninsured coronavirus patients (this was also 9:45-10:20 of the piece of the video I suggested to watch), a good deal for people who would have struggled to buy insurance.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Used to be the bill was only a cash payment (for CARES), and only covered Coronavirus testing with zero leave (for FFRCA).

How Jimmy Dore made you think the republicans did any of this is beyond me. I never thought you'd be so thoroughly bamboozled.



The articles I read say it was Trump who pushed reimbursement to hospitals for treating uninsured coronavirus patients (see the WSJ link I just posted in the last sentence).  Jimmy didn't talk about paid leave.  I mentioned it because you didn't.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26582893 - 04/06/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Used to be the bill was only a cash payment (for CARES), and only covered Coronavirus testing with zero leave (for FFRCA).

How Jimmy Dore made you think the republicans did any of this is beyond me. I never thought you'd be so thoroughly bamboozled.



The articles I read say it was Trump who pushed reimbursement to hospitals for treating uninsured coronavirus patients (see the WSJ link I just posted in the last sentence).  Jimmy didn't talk about paid leave.  I mentioned it because you didn't.




This leads to a similar problem to the thing with poor people going to the ER on the taxpayer's dime I mentioned before.

The $100B dollars that was allocated to helping hospitals was allocated before treatment became free for the uninsured. Trump opened up treatment for uninsured people (after a few days of bipartisan backlash), but there was no additional funding allocated. Which means that while treatment for the uninsured is free, (yay), the money for their treatment is coming out of the money hospitals would have spent on supplies otherwise.

His solution wasn't "yeah, let's do this as well", it was "Hey, congratulations, your job duties have expanded! No raise."


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Kryptos]
    #26582973 - 04/06/20 10:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The $100B dollars that was allocated to helping hospitals was allocated before treatment became free for the uninsured.



The $100B was allocated to hospitals?  If true, I see your point, but is it true?  :shrug:


--------------------
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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26582987 - 04/06/20 11:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-policy-watch/a-look-at-the-100-billion-for-hospitals-in-the-cares-act/

I think this predates the announcement.

Basically, the hospitals got a bit of a slush fund, that should be distributed by Sec. HHS. Then the requirements to pay for testing were added to the slush fund.

Interestingly, it appears that the 500B bailout for main street will be audited rigorously by a specially formed team, to ensure that no money is wasted.

The other 1.4T does not appear to have any auditing requirements, with donnie famously saying "I'll be the audit for that".


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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26584352 - 04/07/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes yes, write him in... write him in..


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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Enlil]
    #26584359 - 04/07/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
they will also reimburse a portion of treatment for uninsured people. Which is already what happens when someone with no money walks into an ER: they're legally required to be treated, at taxpayer expense.




You think an ER is legally required to treat anyone who walks in?  That's not true.  You think that people who can't afford an ER and are treated by one get reimbursed by the government?  That's not true either.



The ER cant turn a patient away if uninsured.  So patients with major problems dont bring ID and falsify their names to get the help they need.  If a guy comes in bleeding, he sill get help.  He wont pay a dime. 
Now if were talking cancer treatment then no, they wont be helped in the ER.  The er cant fix that anyway.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: meltdowner] * 4
    #26584387 - 04/07/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You're wrong.  Emergency rooms all across the country turn people away every day.  And people who can't pay and are treated by an ER end up owing a lot of money, which harms those people because it ruins their credit.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: If Biden Wins the primary, I am abstaining from the general [Re: Enlil]
    #26584487 - 04/07/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're wrong.  Emergency rooms all across the country turn people away every day.  And people who can't pay and are treated by an ER end up owing a lot of money, which harms those people because it ruins their credit.




Meltdowner and his scenario might be wrong, but you still have yet to address mine:

ERs are legally required to stabilize you, and you cannot get blood from a stone, so the hypothetical homeless who has no credit or assets to speak of will get free treatment after a hobo fight.


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