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OfflineGrapefruit
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Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26599970 - 04/14/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup: I can get behind that POV.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: End of Empire [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26615342 - 04/20/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The one silver lining of the coronavirus emergency is seen when we look at history, and we see that meaningful change is only ever precipitated by a major crisis. Now, that includes both positive and negative change. But the path we have been on in the U.S. has been disastrous, and getting worse all the time. This crisis is the one chance we’ll get to smarten up.

If nothing, or hardly anything, changes as a result of this, I guess you’d have to say we’re getting what we deserve, good and hard. If we institute positive changes, the doing of which is of course in doubt, we’re doing what we’re supposed to be doing. So if Americans squander this opportunity to do right by themselves, Americans are truly worthless and miserable people, it seems to me. It would be unforgivable not to change for the better as a result of this disaster.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26615444 - 04/20/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It really begs the question if this doesn’t do it then what in the hell will? 

It’s likely in all our best interest to figure this out here and now steering the shit show in a more proper direction than to sit on our ass and wait until a truly devastating cataclysmic scenario develops.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26615460 - 04/20/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I agree completely.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: End of Empire [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26615472 - 04/20/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

basic income + healthcare + air + water...

(education please...)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26615486 - 04/20/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
basic income + healthcare + air + water...

(education please...)




First shots fired


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26615591 - 04/20/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think nationalizing healthcare and establishing a progressive presence in the state with UBI, greater environmental restrictions and so on is a good thing ish.  But I don’t think it attacks the essence of the problem.  It’s basically like trying to put a bandaid on a wound that is pouring blood.  Instead the economy is systemically fucked.  Capitalism can be credited for that.  The only way to correct that fundamentally is a working class revolution.  Democratize the enterprises in the economy by valuing and forming co-ops.  Because rn it’s likely that we have economic dictatorships where the working class is essentially enslaved to the elite capitalists.  Imo this is the greater problem, not the inadequacies of the state which no doubt would be helpful if it wasn’t completely screwed.  I don’t think these 2 problems are exclusive but I give more importance to the democratizing of the economy vs. the progression of the state.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26615636 - 04/20/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

get with the times,  there won't be a working class.

that's the problem and the solution.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26615651 - 04/20/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
get with the times,  there won't be a working class.

that's the problem and the solution.




So the robots are going to come in and take over the economy completely and this won’t involve funding, maintenance etc. and people through a UBI will simply be afforded the basics of life.  Which is what exactly, food, shelter, healthcare?  Defense, courts, policing?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26615910 - 04/20/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

exactly
what should it be like to be a self respecting person 50 years from now.
could we all become students of some subjects or activities we love
maybe turn the 'workplace' into a kind of school affiliated with other schools.

still need doctors, lawyers, actors, and a score of other professions.
but we also need teachers.

what else?

I don't know what's going to happen, some people will work, it's not all robots and wont be either, but the engineering and logistics will minimize human labor which means less work with more people. 

it will be a process.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26616097 - 04/20/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well I think a robotic plumber is a ways out.  Or a robotic construction laborer.  Or any vast number of skilled labor.  I mean the changes upcoming are basically replacing the fast food cashier with automation.  And other basic administrative tasks, truck driving etc. 

I think there will very much continue to be a working class.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26616829 - 04/21/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

they wont be working if there is a recession, no new building projects, no new driving...
plumbers etc are special guilds that fix degenerating services, and they will be expensive, too expensive for the "unemployed"


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26617404 - 04/21/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, indeed.  I was picturing a scenario of a fully integrated and competent robot plumber.  One that could be programmed in various ways like with or without a sense of humor for example.  It would probably cost extra for that and wouldn’t be affordable during a downturn to say the least.  People would have to go with the straightforward just here to do a job robot plumber.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26617447 - 04/21/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yah, even when it is possible to have Data (from Star Trek TNG) fix your sink, it will be more likely to get Jason and Sons(, plumbers and pipe fitters) to come over and mess around under the counter.

the big question is how to pay the piper


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26617463 - 04/21/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

With UBI.  At least until apples begin to cost 500$ a piece and the government printed monthly check doesn’t go as far as it once did.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26617837 - 04/21/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’ll be printing apples by the time the US has UBI that covers the cost of living


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: End of Empire [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26618179 - 04/21/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRedPirateRoberts
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Registered: 04/18/20
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Re: End of Empire [Re: Rahz]
    #26618342 - 04/21/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with the US is not that it is an Empire, but that it is an Empire that continues to pretend it is just a simple old republic. If Rome was any indication, the reality is that the US is going to move into an explicitly imperial stage.

What is more likely to happen is the failure of globalization will morph into the triumph of multi-polar imperial regimes. There will likely be a conflict with Asia, like the Mithridatic wars, despite peoples trepidation and belief that an Asian war would be prosecuted similar to Vietnam, it will likely not go very well at first but will adjust. China may be a sleeping elephant, but America is a sleeping Honeybadger, and it's likely its conduct will redefine perfidy for all time.


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Everything I've said is opinion. I am not here to be right, I'm here for the shrooms.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: End of Empire [Re: RedPirateRoberts] * 1
    #26618361 - 04/21/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think the notion of Asia being a direct and serious threat to the US is overblown for the most part.  They have so much to deal with that I can’t really see them contesting us in a way that’s not trade, intelligence, accidental/natural,  or covert in nature.  The geographic location of the country on the world map is literally huge and cumbersome from the point of view of having to govern the place sufficiently and adequately, not to mention it’s surrounded by other independent actors on the world stage with their own interests, some of which are indebted to and allied with the US.

And our military bases, allied military bases, countries, shared economic investments and essential commodities.  Plus, these days are in large part defined by geopolitics and international trade.  The longer it goes on the more intertwined and messy the strings get, and suddenly what was obviously our shit and their shit begins to be harder to define, and so old lines have to be replaced and drawn with new lines..


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/21/20 05:49 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: End of Empire [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26619600 - 04/22/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I’ll be printing apples by the time the US has UBI that covers the cost of living




Not if Andrew Yang has anything to say about it.  Get you some Asian persuasion.


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