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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Scepticism of collectivism? 2
#26560400 - 03/27/20 02:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about communism here. So let's leave that off the table.
I am bored here sat at home without much to do so unfortunately I've been submitting myself to the news lately.
The news here is going on and on about humanity and support for one another. Everyone is getting very gushy and blabbing a lot about coming together and so on. Last night there was a collective celebration for NHS workers.
I don't know whether I am just cold or what but it all looks like a lot of fear to me. I'm not quite sure what's going on here but I am interested to figure it out. I think maybe people have a very poor ability to regulate their emotions and all of this gushing about emotionally coming together is really coming from a place of fear.
I tend to think that everything is one interconnected system, including nature, the virus, humanity, everything, you could say that a cord of love runs through it all, but I don't see any need for talking about humanity in all these gushy terms. It seems unbalanced to me. I get the feeling that people are trying to force themselves to feel a certain way a lot of the time too but it's somewhat unreal.
Let me be clear that I do believe in people coming together to do things but I think about it in more of a pragmatic way. The same way nature creates, it's not selfish or selfless it just does it's function and otherwise keeps silent. The language field humans use seems very clouded by fear. I notice this all the time including when people are talking about friendship and so on, on a more individual level. I am sceptical, it seems like desire for attachments fueled by fear. A need to force things into being a certain way.
What do you guys think about it? What exactly is going on here? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit] 2
#26560498 - 03/27/20 04:30 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think humanity is much different than nature. Other animals are selfish and fearful within their capacity.
What's going on is the capacity for selfishness and the intelligence to use fear in a way other animals can't.
Our intelligence and keen observations create lofty ideas, but at the end of the day we're ruled by our emotions, same as the rest of nature which is neither good or bad.
Yet, being intelligent and introspective we are conscious that we don't measure up to our ideas and judge ourselves for it.
All the tools that make humans "better" than nature also bring out the "worst" of nature.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Rahz] 1
#26560514 - 03/27/20 04:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is always the ability to overcome oneself in at least a few ways though no? So can you just sit at that point and be okay with it?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit]
#26560563 - 03/27/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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hi Grapefruit,
nature is able to take care of itself. everything being of this interconnected system, and humans having an inborn desire to belong, and to be accepted by others, humans will always be driven to be a part of something greater than themselves. coexisting, here, in this state, things take care of themselves.
the natural interconnected system has been idealized, degraded and deconstructed by modern culture. in it's place we make new codes/molds/systems to obey so that we may belong.
now being a part of something greater, is to be a part of something has been artificially created, celebrated, and worshiped. these molds are unequipped to accomplish what the natural interconnected system can.
the virus is part of something greater.
a species divided against itself will not stand.
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Shr00mEater
Strange


Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Socially, I think it makes sense.
A dreaded, invisible and dangerous enemy is skulking around in the jungle at the edges of our encampment. The tribal leaders call everyone to rally in the middle of the village and stay out of the forest. The people gain a sense of relief by trusting the leaders and the larger group to deal with this enemy, as opposed to individuals trying to defeat it on their own.
The emotional gushiness you mention is a non-physical way to demonstrate this type of group cohesiveness. If a nurse was a warrior who had gone out to slay the enemy, we would sing his praises too. I think it is a natural response. However, I do agree to your point that it is stemming from fear.
People do strange things when they are afraid.
Look at us all stepping back behind the tape line on the floor. 
After the cashier has fondled your snacks and you have used the credit card machine and touched the door handle on the way in and out.... and she probably hands you the receipt physically anyway....
Does anyone really think tape on the floor is doing anything except for abating the populations anxiety?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit]
#26560612 - 03/27/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
There is always the ability to overcome oneself in at least a few ways though no? So can you just sit at that point and be okay with it?
Not being okay is the problem, and what should be done or not done about it isn't generally clear when in the "jungle". As well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Of course, doing nothing can't be the only answer, but when it comes to making things worse doing nothing would generally be a better option than whatever action was taken. Hindsight is 20/20.
And sure, never perfect but progress gets made. That progress we try to express and share, but ultimately the bodies get old and die and are replaced with new bodies to learn the same lessons.
Being able to sit and be okay with it would be a good start. I don't think most people can manage that. It is asking a lot, after all. Other animals do what they feel to do within their capacity. They just don't have the power to screw things up like us.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: hi Grapefruit,
nature is able to take care of itself. everything being of this interconnected system, and humans having an inborn desire to belong, and to be accepted by others, humans will always be driven to be a part of something greater than themselves. coexisting, here, in this state, things take care of themselves.
the natural interconnected system has been idealized, degraded and deconstructed by modern culture. in it's place we make new codes/molds/systems to obey so that we may belong.
now being a part of something greater, is to be a part of something has been artificially created, celebrated, and worshiped. these molds are unequipped to accomplish what the natural interconnected system can.
the virus is part of something greater.
a species divided against itself will not stand.
Now this I really dig, what a great response.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26560619 - 03/27/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know about that shroomeater, practicality and mitigation of suffering seem important no?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Rahz]
#26560637 - 03/27/20 07:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like that, you're right that it is asking a lot of people to do just about anything other than what that heady mix of culture and biology has successfully or unsucessfully trained or driven them to do. That includes relaxation.
Very few break free of what they are stuck in and overcome themselves. They are the lucky ones I guess, or perhaps you deserve it, I'm never quite sure, it's probably a mixture. There are so many different methods to do so and so many different paths in life we are presented with that it can become extraordinarily paralyzing.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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CountHTML
Stranger


Registered: 06/24/18
Posts: 557
Loc: Maine
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26560993 - 03/27/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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People in America struggle with anything even approaching collectivism. Their staunch individualism is admirable, though stubborn in its most unexamined expression. In terms of utility, there comes a point where both individualism and collectivism hit their respective dead ends, because both of them are incomplete.
Even the most ostensibly individualistic states—Texas, Arizona, etc—are the most draconian when it comes to controlling how individuals steward the contents of their own consciousness. These are unexamined inconsistencies in worldview. Most people, even beyond the topic of individualism, are merely cognizant of the ostensible.
America would benefit from a softening of individualism and more care for the public good. A society predicated in stepping on one another is not sustainable. This virus has revealed what happens in an ostensibly first-world country that does not prioritize or provide healthcare to all of its citizens. The rabid corporatism and sheer profit-driven model collapses under the weight of a virus. This pandemic has highlighted weaknesses in the social structures of each country it has afflicted.
Collectivism smashes the arts and the artist. Then again, I don’t think John Wayne would be much of a fan of the arts. Still, while more traditionally minded people in individualistic societies tend to view the artist with disdain for not following norms, all the while appreciating their work, the artist is granted freedoms that may not have in collectivist societies. Perhaps this is an unexamined assertion on my part.
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: CountHTML]
#26561065 - 03/27/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So how is greater care for the public good to be realized? Through statism, perhaps Green Party politics, or individual revelation perhaps in a libertarian perspective ? Can the United States even coordinate such a change ?
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CountHTML
Stranger


Registered: 06/24/18
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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That’s the question. I think change in mindset is necessary, prerequisite before tangible change is even possible. At this point most Americans do not think it is possible and much of our sense-making is locked in old models (e.g. factory model, extractive models of continued economic growth) that no longer apply. The current populist wave seems fueled by a nostalgia for this period. Interestingly, populism seems to be the closest we get to collectivism or I guess quasi / pseudo collectivism because reactionary xenophobia seems to be a feature.
I’m worried about a statist overcorrection as the next few generations come to prominence and power. Big questions and this is not an area I spend much time thinking about, but probably should.
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: CountHTML]
#26561351 - 03/27/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I’m not sure what you mean by old modals but I would say that I think right wing statist populism is fueled by a sort of nostalgia “maga” whereas the populism of the left is for a newer brighter future “Bernie bro’s”.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26561470 - 03/27/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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left to nature alone at its pace, alone, we would still be in caves - We are accelerators and facilitators to what is natural, and we do that best when we understand nature, in this case: Human nature and the nature of viral infection and pandemics.
many of those humans in charge really should be in caves, it more suits the greedy bully mentality with which they govern.
test kits and ventilators as well as treatments and vaccines are part of what is needed, and it is in our nature to produce them distribute them and use them. It is also in our nature to profiteer at every opportunity. This does not always pan out. Gambling and gossip also are part of our nature.
Interesting times.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
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Fuck communism
Jk 
All this highlights that humans have gone astray for a while. The world hasn't suddenly gone crazy -- it's just suddenly apparent. It's been very much awful for a while.
How many millionaires do we have, and how many homeless?
All this is less than what it would be like to have someone bulldose your home, with you in it, but humans did this for a long time with no regard...
I'm talking about birds and all others.
We haven't really given a damn if we destroy the rest of the world, but the fact is we are the world. By killing the other life, it's us.
The illusion of humans being separate from life on earth is not tenable.
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AZZI
Stranger

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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: AZZI]
#26561814 - 03/27/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here's the problem with pointing fingers though. It all comes back. "If you point a finger te others are pointing at you."
All extremes should be cut back on.
This is I think what is going on, too much mega-enforced communal thinking.
My town is kind of ideal in some ways for this..
Emptied out half the town is students.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26562244 - 03/27/20 10:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I'm not talking about communism here. So let's leave that off the table.
I am bored here sat at home without much to do so unfortunately I've been submitting myself to the news lately.
The news here is going on and on about humanity and support for one another. Everyone is getting very gushy and blabbing a lot about coming together and so on. Last night there was a collective celebration for NHS workers.
I don't know whether I am just cold or what but it all looks like a lot of fear to me. I'm not quite sure what's going on here but I am interested to figure it out. I think maybe people have a very poor ability to regulate their emotions and all of this gushing about emotionally coming together is really coming from a place of fear.
I tend to think that everything is one interconnected system, including nature, the virus, humanity, everything, you could say that a cord of love runs through it all, but I don't see any need for talking about humanity in all these gushy terms. It seems unbalanced to me. I get the feeling that people are trying to force themselves to feel a certain way a lot of the time too but it's somewhat unreal.
Let me be clear that I do believe in people coming together to do things but I think about it in more of a pragmatic way. The same way nature creates, it's not selfish or selfless it just does it's function and otherwise keeps silent. The language field humans use seems very clouded by fear. I notice this all the time including when people are talking about friendship and so on, on a more individual level. I am sceptical, it seems like desire for attachments fueled by fear. A need to force things into being a certain way.
What do you guys think about it? What exactly is going on here? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
Part of the reaction may be that: We are all rather more greedy, selfish, and self preoccupied, than we would like others to realize. (which probably explains the frequency of dreams of being naked in public) *
So when we are all exposed, we over correct, and like a Sunday preacher spout all sorts of ideals. And this crisis exposes, the selfishness, lack of foresight, & so on of not just our leaders & governments, but also of our own indolent, superficial, and petty lifestyles. So I see it as something a little more complex than just fear of the virus or death or poverty. By the way where you do see "Everyone ... getting very gushy and blabbing"?
It turns out people can unite in some, emergencies -- for a while anyway -- so its not all bad.
* https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2413510/Being-caught-naked-common-dream-Half-night-terrors-public-humiliation.html
Edited by laughingdog (03/27/20 11:57 PM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26562774 - 03/28/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah it was just watching the news that morning I think that I was a little put off by some of it. Many of the ways people have been responding have made a lot of sense to me.
In any case I am impressed by near all of the all of the responses in this thread. Very good thinking you guys have going on.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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Re: Scepticism of collectivism? [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26562907 - 03/28/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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i wonder at 'the end' of all this virus shenanigans, will humans accept the consequences as having been unavoidable?
what new values are being inserted as the old physicality is ushered out?
no one controls nature, and so many have lost their reverence for life, because they see themselves as the controller of it.
how willing are humans to give up their physical security and comfort? those who cling tightly to their Disney-world, will become a more effective servant to it.
are humans being fused to the satanic collectivist system against their will?
can people even tell their own dick from their ass anymore?
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Overpopulation is a huge problem and I'm not really sure where it stems from. That's one factor. The second is people have forgotten that they are caretakers of the land in a very real way as we have been divorced from it by destroying the environment with on mass agriculture.
No one knows how to work the land anymore and would rather let the machines handle it. The land has become an alien to us and nobody really gives a fuck about reintegration with it. Spread it with poison en mass and get the crops going faster. Another miracle of science.
It's all just nonsense eco tourism and flashy documentaries and "Oooh isn't nature marvelous". We have forgotten that we are slaves to nature just as much as any other animal. Somebody needs to come along and remind us of our place on earth. I don't know who as I am much too broken as a person to do it and I suspect so are most others.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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