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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26547131 - 03/20/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

No one knows who exactly wrote the gospels....there is no definitive proof. There are discrepancies in the gospels, and that is a point of contention, not of agreement that because there are some discrepancies the gospels must be right. What kind of logic is that?

Anytime someone has used the scripture to question you, you give another way that scripture could be interpreted. But who are you to interpret what has been re-worded multiple times.

Have you studied the original copy of the gospels? Because being re-written and translated could cause some huge leaps in interpretation.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26547232 - 03/20/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Influence said:
There are discrepancies in the gospels, and that is a point of contention,




Not just that there are discrepancies, but the extremely specific way that they fill in gaps across multiple gospels. 

For example: (I gave others in the thread with specific verses)  in one gospel we are privy to the private conversations of the ruler Herod, with no expalanation, and in another gospel we have no mention of Herod's conversation, yet a casual comment in totally different context mentions that one of Jesus' follower's husbands was a servant for Herod (and thus could have overheard private conversations in his inner chambers)

obviously if it were just a few instances of that kind of "undesigned coincidence" across the gospels, you could chalk it up to happenstance, but there are lots of them all over the gospel narrative. 

And it's precisely the signature we find in truthful testimony given from mulitple witnesses.  one witness will casually mention many details, without necessarily giving an explanation for them... and a different witness will likewise end up explaining the other witness's details without mentioning the details themselves.

It's not the easiest thing to wrap your head around at first glane (read it over a few times), but once you really think about it, the fact of it is staring you right in the face.  And that's the same forensic pattern we find among the 4 gospels... throughout the entire account of the ministry of Jesus, miracles and all. 


Quote:

The Influence said:
not of agreement that because there are some discrepancies the gospels must be right. What kind of logic is that?





the particular style of discrepancies that I described, yes.  I think it is sound logic.

On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26547779 - 03/20/20 10:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:

On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26548189 - 03/21/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Edit: Unhelpful comments.


Edited by Shr00mEater (03/21/20 11:55 AM)


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26548207 - 03/21/20 06:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Edit: more unhelpful comments.


Edited by Shr00mEater (03/21/20 11:56 AM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] * 1
    #26549372 - 03/21/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26553938 - 03/23/20 08:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.



You keep using the discrepancies as your point of truth. If the infallible god you speak of had so many miracles and was as powerful as you believe i think there might be a little more similarity in the stories. But thats not the case and no one knows for sure who the authors were or how long after these supposed miracles happened thatt these stories were written.

You have shown 0 proof and if shroomeater isnt a puppet account of yours he just keeps saying you won the case now lets get on to more serious topics.

But you havent proven a single thing, if anything you reaffirmed my disbelief. When you can go beyond an "ancient alien" what if response ill respond again...but you have no proof, if there was such proof the whole world would be christian


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26554097 - 03/23/20 09:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Influence said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.



You keep using the discrepancies as your point of truth. If the infallible god you speak of had so many miracles and was as powerful as you believe i think there might be a little more similarity in the stories. But thats not the case and no one knows for sure who the authors were or how long after these supposed miracles happened thatt these stories were written.

You have shown 0 proof and if shroomeater isnt a puppet account of yours he just keeps saying you won the case now lets get on to more serious topics.

But you havent proven a single thing, if anything you reaffirmed my disbelief. When you can go beyond an "ancient alien" what if response ill respond again...but you have no proof, if there was such proof the whole world would be christian




He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] * 1
    #26554448 - 03/24/20 05:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.




It has to be clear by now that I'm not just talking about discrepancies in general.  Of course that would be unimpressive.

Here are direct links again with the examples.  When you are willing to engage with the argument let me know.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26556276 - 03/25/20 01:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

Babylon said:
He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.




It has to be clear by now that I'm not just talking about discrepancies in general.  Of course that would be unimpressive.

Here are direct links again with the examples.  When you are willing to engage with the argument let me know.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173





Yep.  I read that.  Side by side comparisons with verified eye witness testimony and aknowledged myth, to show that they actually line up with the one and not the other would be more convincing than the approach you are using.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26556397 - 03/25/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The Influence, you said my name...

So, I guess we are friends again?

Check your pms :smile:




Edit: If the influence isn’t Babylons puppet, he just keeps misunderstanding basic argumentation and is unable to move on to serious stuff.



Edited by Shr00mEater (03/25/20 06:42 AM)


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26556426 - 03/25/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Could you give an example of a side by side?

Like of a different mythological work compared to the Bible? I think that might be helpful in showing that the possibility of the NT being a myth is still on the table. Do you have something in mind that shows a similar pattern as saved7 is claiming?

Or, do you mean like comparing a witness statement to the bible( which saved7 claims has been done). Got me thinking now.... I am probably going to read a few mythological works to see if I can recognize similarities. Do you have a suggestion on good myths that aren’t as popular? 

I also think we should clarify the term “myth”, I think saved7 is considering a myth as purely fictional, or at least not based in true events, and it seems you are using a different definition.

Also, just thought of this, is it common for myths to name real places and people, even within 60 years of the event? Or how long does a myth take to develop?

You have given me a lot to look into, definitely sparked an interest in taking mythology more seriously.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26556601 - 03/25/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Anyone who read ASOIAF knows it’s easy to make similar but not identical “eyewitnesses” testimony of fictional events. Martin’s writing style actually fits all of those criteria perfectly. Doesn’t mean he proved dragons are real...

No one in their right mind thinks OP’s argument proves anything.

He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT :lol:


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26556647 - 03/25/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think it being written a certain way does say SOMETHING about it.

It’s obviously not meant to be taken as a fictional work.

So, is it a con? Again..... I dunno if that fits either.

This myth angle Babylon is bringing up seems interesting and reasonable to me. I can imagine a story being told of part truth, part teaching or moral advice and then purposely being romanticized for the sake of a community. Is this something like what you mean, Babylon?

The dating of the texts still makes me wonder about how a myth is first created. I am totally ignorant of anything outside the basic Greek myths or other popularized myths.

Feldman, out of curiosity, why would it matter to you if an apostle did, in fact, follow a guy named Jesus around and then wrote it down? Do you believe every person who claims they saw something or wrote it down in a book? I am dumbfounded and curious why everyone is so resistant to the actual argument being made. There seems to be either a severe tendency for deflection from the topic from the opposing side. Bringing in all sorts of other things about Christianity..... but hardly ever directly confronting the evidence being presented with evidence to the contrary.

To me, it is nothing to accept that contemporaries wrote about Jesus. It makes as much sense as anything else we believe about ancient documents. Most of what we know from ancient history isn’t firsthand accounts. Why would we care if this was or wasn’t? Would it be more or less authoritative if it was a supposed eyewitness, Herodotus might be a good example of what I am getting at. 

To me, wether they were made up, or eyewitnesses doesn’t seem to affect my view of any of the miraculous claims. Is there something I am missing where my consent on his points is giving up more ground than I intend?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26557302 - 03/25/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I disputed the only argument you’ve made so far, after promising proof.

You “gave up” the entire premise of the argument in the end there. You said “it doesn’t matter” whether or not the thing you’re arguing for is true or not...and that finding out it’s not wouldn’t effect how you view the miracles...


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26557373 - 03/25/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don’t remember promising proof. Evidence maybe?

I also don’t mind giving up the premise. I’m not vested in the outcome of the argument. I like both sides. It’s an interesting subject. I’m not arguing “for” a particular interpretation of the gospels. I am arguing that it seems more likely that the gospels were written by contemporaries, and that OP presented his case in a reasonable format, and also pointing out the conflicts in the oppositions that have been raised.

Since we are off topic anyway, as has been much of the counterpoints: How are you assuming I see miracles? :smile:

I think, when we talk about miracles portrayed in the Bible, or of any kind, textual criticism and philosophical arguments won’t quite cut it for me. I am more scientific minded when it comes to something that should be testable and verifiable to us. I would need a demonstration of supernatural power, and even that I would like to criticize. I think the typical line is that; miracles were for that time and not ours. If God wanted to do a miracle today, he could, but he only chose to do them at certain times as signs. And, if miracles happened all the time, they wouldn’t be miracles. :grin:

That’s why I say I don’t think it matters if they were eyewitnesses, and why the myth angle as I am starting to see it looks appealing. Even if they were eyewitnesses, I think there could be elements that were purposely mythologized. Think of parables: a lot of them are made up stories, metaphors, describing a kind of value. If Jesus himself fictionalized the “true”  ideas he was trying to convey, why wouldn’t the disciples follow suit when writing their accounts?

I still wonder why they would write negative stuff about themselves tho.

Peter doesn’t come out looking too good. Maybe the other disciples didn’t like him and were just trying to make him look bad?



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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26558466 - 03/26/20 06:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT :lol:




What's interesting is we rational modern people have designed an entire system of forensic 'truth-seeking' (e.g. homocide detective work) around just those "certain ways" that testimony is provided.  There are specific signatures in multi-witness testimony that point to either fraud and collusion or honest trustworthiness.  It is a science. (though surely an imperfect one)

It seems like you want to pretend this line of reasoning doesn't exist, because the closer we look at the gospels under that forensic lens, the more they are shown to provide that certain signature. 

In short, if the gospels were embellished myths, it is extremely difficult to explain why they have this pattern of undesigned, casual coincidences and confirmations of each other. (a pattern we typically only find among honest witnesses, recalling actual events to the best of their ability)

One way to avoid dealing with this evidence, which I see posters now doing, is to move the discussion away from specificity and back into a generalities (e.g. "Discprepancies *in general* don't prove anything!")

To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26558496 - 03/26/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

A conclusion can not be based on itself.

You need to back up the Bible with something other than itself if you want to examine it’s authenticity.

Just like anything else in life...


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26558500 - 03/26/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Like I said, there is an IDENTICAL pattern of “undersigned, casual coincidences” in George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” series. Every chapter is written from a different perspective and their accounts vary JUST LIKE the different books of the Bible.

But guess what? They weren’t the authors.

Btw, it’s a much better read than the Bible. You should give it a go.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26559092 - 03/26/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Like I said, there is an IDENTICAL pattern of “undersigned, casual coincidences” in George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” series. Every chapter is written from a different perspective and their accounts vary JUST LIKE the different books of the Bible.





Just curious, can you give a specific example?

And do you think it is likely that different gospel authors in the 1st century (with time of their writing separated by up to decades) colluded to produce interconnected works of fiction like that? 

I'd like to expound further on just how casual/subtle these coincidences are.  (just look at the examples I've already provided).
They don't serve to advance any kind of narrative. Readers wouldn't even notice them unless they were painstakingly searching and comparing all four gospels.  The point being, from a collusion/fraud outlook, it is quite mysterious what the function of such subtle coincidences would be... unless they were simply just the natural and expected result of truthful multi-witness testimonies.

Also note, the gospel authors not only had to confirm each other, but also had to be accurate with a myriad of geographical and historical details specific to that time and place. (no wikipedia for research)


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