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kitten6
hiker


Registered: 05/13/19
Posts: 96
Loc: UK 0161
Last seen: 19 days, 4 hours
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are fires aware 1
#26555367 - 03/24/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So, i light a fire, light a zigorette or whatever.
When it is on fire, is it alive, is it sentient, when you look into it, does it look back a you?
It's alive i think. What do you think?
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evlyshrooms
willi weilii



Registered: 08/08/19
Posts: 2,275
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6]
#26555438 - 03/24/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I vote no
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6]
#26555470 - 03/24/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if by alive, you mean vibrating, then yes. but if you mean conscious, then no.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6] 1
#26555546 - 03/24/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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When you light a fire, it is not conscious of your presence, and it cannot "see." But I feel that everything in nature is imbued with a sense of objective being, so that it is also incorrect to say it is utterly dead and without feature. Another poster mentioned "vibration." If you want to think of the fire as having a vibration that in some proto-sense represents slight feeling, in a real but abstract way, then I think that might be reasonably accurate.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
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if you are stoned enough the gaze makes it alive
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kitten6
hiker


Registered: 05/13/19
Posts: 96
Loc: UK 0161
Last seen: 19 days, 4 hours
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but how can you prove that it isn't conscious. Not just noise.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6] 1
#26556389 - 03/25/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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some things are over before you can set up your test equipment, and what test equipment do you have for consciousness anyway? even a conversation does not prove you were not talking with yourself.
the shape of the fuel, the breezes in the air, these are what make the flames dance in my opinion. but watching them is worth doing for hours if you can. this shapes your consciousness - and that is the artful life.
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Shr00mEater
Strange


Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6]
#26556452 - 03/25/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kitten6 said: but how can you prove that it isn't conscious. Not just noise.
How can you prove I don’t have 6 arms and two heads?
Ideally, you should show some positive evidence for your hypothesis. Is there any reason to think fire might be conscious?
You mentioned a fire “looking back at you”, how is a fire able to see? Or, the idea that it is a vibration, do all things with vibration possess consciousness, or only some things?
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Ovoidhunter
Buttery Crescent



Registered: 09/17/16
Posts: 2,016
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6]
#26556457 - 03/25/20 07:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kitten6 said: So, i light a fire, light a zigorette or whatever.
When it is on fire, is it alive, is it sentient, when you look into it, does it look back a you?
It's alive i think. What do you think?
Yeah the fires in Australia was like "time to kill" "burn the innocent" "especially the koalas!". So it was.
Those fires were dicks man.
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Shr00mEater
Strange


Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Quote:
Ovoidhunter said:
Quote:
kitten6 said: So, i light a fire, light a zigorette or whatever.
When it is on fire, is it alive, is it sentient, when you look into it, does it look back a you?
It's alive i think. What do you think?
Yeah the fires in Australia was like "time to kill" "burn the innocent" "especially the koalas!". So it was.
Those fires were dicks man.
Nah, fires aren’t assholes. They are simply going about their business following their instincts. Fires were evolved/created to destroy and consume physical materials. It’s how they survive, feed and reproduce. Fires don’t pick and choose who or what they burn up, they have an amoral consciousness and will burn up anything they can. They are also not aware of how dickish they seem to us.
It’s like a cougar attacking and killing an antelope. The cougar doesn’t hate the antelope, but he sure as hell is going to tear that antelope into pieces and eat him.
Koalas are nasty little things in the wild anyway. Fuck them. The fire was doing gods work IMO.
Plug me in for team “fire is awesome”
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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Re: are fires aware [Re: kitten6]
#26556683 - 03/25/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kitten6 said: but how can you prove that it isn't conscious. Not just noise.
Well I'm saying it does have a proto-consciousness. But not at all in the way an organism does.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
Posts: 239
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said:
Quote:
kitten6 said: but how can you prove that it isn't conscious. Not just noise.
How can you prove I don’t have 6 arms and two heads?
Ideally, you should show some positive evidence for your hypothesis. Is there any reason to think fire might be conscious?
You mentioned a fire “looking back at you”, how is a fire able to see? Or, the idea that it is a vibration, do all things with vibration possess consciousness, or only some things?
Yeah, he can't prove it but that's ok. Many reasons to think it is alive or could be alive.
"Do photons have awareness" is a interesting side thread, pretty heavy on the science.
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
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Re: are fires aware [Re: AZZI] 1
#26556757 - 03/25/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Kitten,
For interest, at least three belief systems I thought of immediately would support your idea.
Shamanism says that all things are alive. Check out the 5 Stones of Shamanism.
Japanese or Shinto state that all things, animate and inanimate, have soul.
Which is why for them, blending of biological and synthetic life is more natural blend... Since all have a soul, machines and such are more worthy of care, and treatment with love and such.
Lastly SacCidAnanda is a term for Creator/Creation in Hinduism, Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.
But, all things are created by consciousness in this view.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: are fires aware [Re: AZZI]
#26556769 - 03/25/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, your aware of fire, not the other way around. Look at the aggregates of Fire, no sentience arising from the heap of them.
At least, that would be the biochemical view of it. Within that view (field of study of science) it is not placed in any domain of life, hence it is not alive as defined by the broad definition or strict definition of life.
Does the appearance of aliveness, ie. Movement, flexibility, growth, response to the environment, , things that fire can do, mean that its alive, or just seems so? It is not composed of cells, which is the very definition most widely accepted as being the minimum requirement for a living thing. No cell or cells in fire itself.
Applying another view, of say tengerism (what you call shamanism) or huichol views, I guess in an artistic-poetic way you can define it as
Animate. But that’s not the same as alive.
Also, if something is not defined as alive, doesn’t mean it’s dead in westernism ( which is a sketchy deinfition itself) , instead it’s inanimate.
On the subatomic level, things appear appear animate, same for the quantum, but it is beyond the word living, and not the same as it.
That’s not a good thing or bad thing, just In accordance with things as best we know, as we can tell right now.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (03/25/20 10:29 AM)
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
Posts: 239
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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It's only Westernism that says everything is dead.
Pretty much every other culture says the opposite.
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Shr00mEater
Strange


Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: are fires aware [Re: AZZI]
#26557030 - 03/25/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hm. I don’t think western science is saying “everything is dead”.
Only the things that don’t possess certain qualities recognized as “aliveness” would be considered “not living”. Also, “not living” is not the same as “dead”. Dead would indicate the subject was previously alive.
Pretty much every culture could be wrong? How could we know?
Another interesting thought as far as word usage goes. In language, We do say the fire is dying right before we feed it. We will casually say a fire jumps and dances. We recognize it needs to breathe, if it is smothered it will die. Maybe we can bring it back to life with some dry tinder.
Wether fire has consciousness or not, it appears that our linguistic conventions do highlight the similarity it shares in our minds with other living things.
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,884
Last seen: 2 days, 15 hours
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My candle told me this thread is really insightful
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
Posts: 239
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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ROFL LLLLLLLLLLLLLL HA.
Sketchy? Illgell you what's Extremely fuckin' sketchy.
Post in a line then change it.
(Not talking about you of course ShroomE.)
Anyway Sun Up.
I wasn't arguing just sharing some facts.
Wezternizm says all is dead. Sup Nietzsche.
Here's a tangent for ya.
Zarathustra said - don't ask me to remember the reason for my opinions!
It's enough to remember the opinions.
Said that in aphorisms.
Anyway -- relation to a memory of mine..
End of tangent 
Anyway
It was about - negative view and I'll will....
25 years ago or so (give or take)
I realized a smart clue about that.
Yeah clues. 
Don't be annoyed
It takes a lot to leave clues
Shroomy knows what I'm sayin' 
Nah I ain't ramblin'.
Down and out -- Alan Watts said -- don't and at last out, as he put it, into divinity. Or out of the labyrynth.
Or up and out - back out of the rabbit hole.
(Yeah I was watchin' Matrix for a hot second)
Only belittle clues if you worship the Unholy anti-God called persuasion.
And yes I know, now I've rambled.
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
Posts: 239
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: are fires aware [Re: Kickle]
#26557217 - 03/25/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: My candle told me this thread is really insightful
Hella nice bro. I saw yo posts in the atomic awareness tread. Photon awareness.
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
Posts: 239
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: are fires aware [Re: AZZI]
#26557233 - 03/25/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Anyway, to be blunt and witty, and true, Life and death are one. Two sides of one coin.
So what is that coin? Life and death.
There is a beautiful conversation between Anubis, and a person he did a beautiful, horrible trick to, about this.
He asks him about life and death, as a conversation starter, and explains that aren't two things, but only One, And goes on to explain about the Worlds of Life, guided by Thoth, and the worlds of death, led by him.
And of course he's all lying, but it's a beautiful piece of philosophy j in the midst of all this.
Set, in the midst of all this, is his - temporarily - personal servant, having been given a grafted body of sustounding proportions, and of course, taken of all memory.
In the book, Creatures.
Loved your post Shroom, I'm just biding time while walking in the World of Life.
Sunny and flowery
Love, Azzi
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