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OfflineLitto
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Patlal]
    #26553749 - 03/23/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone suffers from the same affliction..

Being alive.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Litto]
    #26553783 - 03/23/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I still that if we let the old and vulneable die, we would be better off.

No quarintine. no toilet paper shortage, no reduction in human pollution...

We could still be polluting and overpopulating th earth right now...

What a waste.....


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #26553809 - 03/23/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
I still that if we let the old and vulneable die, we would be better off.

No quarintine. no toilet paper shortage, no reduction in human pollution...

We could still be polluting and overpopulating th earth right now...

What a waste.....




what is the definition of vulnerability tho?
is it letting children die in the classroom because to hell with concerns for peanut allergies?
is it promoting an attitude of harassing people with clinical depression rather than attempting to mitigate suicide?

do we still make wheelchair ramps
or do we expect everyone to haul themselves up the stairs


do we expend resources on prosthetics that allow the otherwise vulnerable to function in society
potentially outperforming privileged slum lords not experiencing hardship


where does assisting with vulnerability help society and where does it harm it(if indeed it does)


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Tantrika] * 4
    #26553823 - 03/23/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think Patlal is trying to play the Ari Shaffir role only somehow he's managing to be even dumber and even less funny.

:shrug2:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: feevers] * 1
    #26553838 - 03/23/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

In older more traditional societies children who were born with disabilities that would stop them at least being able to support themselves were euthanized at birth. Older people who could no longer contribute in any way would choose to die, the time was right for them.

Now humanitarian groups happily see 3 or 4 able bodied people working full time to support one disabled person, who never achieves a good quality of life or happy outcome. Aged people are refused the dignified death they wish and are forced to suffer to the bitter end.

This is just another example of where the world has truly gone mad.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Northerner] * 5
    #26553864 - 03/23/20 07:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
...
Now humanitarian groups happily see 3 or 4 able bodied people working full time to support one disabled person, who never achieves a good quality of life or happy outcome. Aged people are refused the dignified death they wish and are forced to suffer to the bitter end.
...




My country has physician assisted suicide, so there is that
but until recently my mother worked in a government-funded care home for people with severe disabilities
and one of them was a man with schizophrenia so severe he could not keep track of what day it was or shop, cook, or handle medications for himself
who gave my mother her brightest point of the week every Sunday because he was so excited to go to church and speak with members of the congregation

another 80+ year old woman could not dress herself or wipe after the bathroom
and could not be in stores unattended because she stole, of all things, stickers (like peeling price tags off racks)
but who loved to go for drives and get ice cream from McDonald's

full round-the-clock staff to give these people some small quality of life
but by doing so also brightens the lives of workers and people in the community
because the super vulnerable are also frequently super nice -- because niceness is exploitability, and exploitability is vulnerability


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Tantrika]
    #26553892 - 03/23/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Your sweet moment anecdotes don't change my mind about the topic. Both my parents worked in disabilities and I've seen the waste and horror of what it is.

When my grandfather's Parkinson's got so bad that he had lost balance and was pretty much sentenced to a life in bed, having his ass wiped by carers, having everything brought to him, he ate a strip of sleeping pills and washed it down with whiskey. I can totally understand that. He was a good man and my respect in him was only furthered.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Northerner]
    #26553896 - 03/23/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Your sweet moment anecdotes don't change my mind about the topic. Both my parents worked in disabilities and I've seen the waste and horror of what it is.

When my grandfather's Parkinson's got so bad that he had lost balance and was pretty much sentenced to a life in bed, having his ass wiped by carers, having everything brought to him, he ate a strip of sleeping pills and washed it down with whiskey. I can totally understand that. He was a good man and my respect in him was only furthered.




I get that.  Is it not selfish of us to rob the elderly of their dignity?  He ended things on his terms.


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Offlinewatermelon mon
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26553898 - 03/23/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I love and admire the elderly.

Noticed that, a lot of people who weren't born here.

They make sure to show them the respect they deserve.


--------------------
    :dazedandconfused:


Edited by watermelon mon (03/23/20 08:11 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #26553922 - 03/23/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Your sweet moment anecdotes don't change my mind about the topic. Both my parents worked in disabilities and I've seen the waste and horror of what it is.

When my grandfather's Parkinson's got so bad that he had lost balance and was pretty much sentenced to a life in bed, having his ass wiped by carers, having everything brought to him, he ate a strip of sleeping pills and washed it down with whiskey. I can totally understand that. He was a good man and my respect in him was only furthered.




Your anecdote doesn't invalidate the reality that the system has mostly positive effects

tho totally recognize and respect that Australia has a whole culture of people taking their own lives in the face of doctors not being allowed


but that does not make it wrong for some people to choose to live through adversity
or for society to facillitate assistance for those who do not have the mental capacity to make such a choice
rather than leaving them to be chewed up and thrown in the gutter inflating homelessness stats

must admit to being a big Cradle of Filth fan tho

Suicide is a tried and tested formula for release


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #26553924 - 03/23/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
In older more traditional societies children who were born with disabilities that would stop them at least being able to support themselves were euthanized at birth. Older people who could no longer contribute in any way would choose to die, the time was right for them.

Now humanitarian groups happily see 3 or 4 able bodied people working full time to support one disabled person, who never achieves a good quality of life or happy outcome. Aged people are refused the dignified death they wish and are forced to suffer to the bitter end.

This is just another example of where the world has truly gone mad.




Working rehab, some of the most happy, genuine, and good-hearted people I've met had some of the most severe and "hopeless" disabilities or conditions, they would've been killed long ago in those societies. The ones that wish they were dead or had never been born are extreme outliers, though I do agree 100% in physician assisted suicide.... that's just a whole different story than the OP's idea to more or less sacrifice the vulnerable for the sake of our own convenience.

There's plenty of internal value to be found both in suffering and in helping those who are suffering. I liked Ram Dass' quote after he had his stroke and wound up in chronic pain and completely dependent, don't remember it exactly but basically about how it was forced Buddhism, if he struggled with it his life would be hell, only choice was to let it all go, accept the help of others and loss of dignity, and meditate with the time that was left here. Misery is a lot more subjective than we realize, and it can go in both directions


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Offlinesusurrador
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Registered: 03/31/19
Posts: 1,446
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: ichugwindex] * 4
    #26554338 - 03/24/20 02:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ichugwindex said:
Quote:

stubb said:
We do let them die, that's what hospice is for.  But if the old and vulnerable go infirm and die all at once, we're all gonna have a bad time. Like, a really bad time, man.



How? Without the VERY few outliers that someone posted earlier a HUGE portion of the wealth is hoarded by the "at risk" age group. Plus on top of that god/the earth/ etc actually chose this to happen for our benefit. We will all be fine because the universe transferred that selfish old wealth to us.

Those selfish few locked us into this capitalist system and they are about to be buried underneath the weight of their own selfishness and greed along with their entire generation. A win/win

Innocent elderly will die but the universe doesnt give a fuck. This is the closest thing I have seen to justice in my lifetime




I wasn't going to post in this stupid thread, but I want to make clear that wealth is created. The people with dickloads of money know this and it is the secret to accumulating said dickloads of money.

The idea that you have less money because wealthy people horde it is asinine and is the limiting belief that will keep you from creating wealth of your own so long as you continue to misunderstand the basic principles of money.

Capitalism is opportunity. That's it. If you don't make something of it it is your own damn fault.

And you take care of people until there's nothing more you can do because we all came into this world helpless and will all leave helpless. It's a duty that comes with participating in these lives.

If someone didn't take care of your helpless ass as a baby you'd be long dead.

You can't repay the years you were watched over to the people who watched you so you pay it forward where and when you can. That includes taking care of the helpless on the other end of the age spectrum and everyone in between.

Little selfish boy brains grow up. Fill the shoes of manhood and put as many people and responsibilities on your shoulders as you can possibly bear.

And fucking bear it.

You'll find you get more satisfaction out of life, get more respect from people, and can look yourself in the eye instead of bitching how a broken system and the people that came before you ruined the world and your chances of success and happiness.

Tuff love. Take care of people because life is hard enough as it is and we're all in this together.

:cockafuck:


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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OfflineBooShow
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Registered: 03/05/20
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26554353 - 03/24/20 02:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Quote:

ichugwindex said:
Quote:

stubb said:
We do let them die, that's what hospice is for.  But if the old and vulnerable go infirm and die all at once, we're all gonna have a bad time. Like, a really bad time, man.



How? Without the VERY few outliers that someone posted earlier a HUGE portion of the wealth is hoarded by the "at risk" age group. Plus on top of that god/the earth/ etc actually chose this to happen for our benefit. We will all be fine because the universe transferred that selfish old wealth to us.

Those selfish few locked us into this capitalist system and they are about to be buried underneath the weight of their own selfishness and greed along with their entire generation. A win/win

Innocent elderly will die but the universe doesnt give a fuck. This is the closest thing I have seen to justice in my lifetime




I wasn't going to post in this stupid thread, but I want to make clear that wealth is created. The people with dickloads of money know this and it is the secret to accumulating said dickloads of money.

The idea that you have less money because wealthy people horde it is asinine and is the limiting belief that will keep you from creating wealth of your own so long as you continue to misunderstand the basic principles of money.

Capitalism is opportunity. That's it. If you don't make something of it it is your own damn fault.

And you take care of people until there's nothing more you can do because we all came into this world helpless and will all leave helpless. It's a duty that comes with participating in these lives.

If someone didn't take care of your helpless ass as a baby you'd be long dead.

You can't repay the years you were watched over to the people who watched you so you pay it forward where and when you can. That includes taking care of the helpless on the other end of the age spectrum and everyone in between.

Little selfish boy brains grow up. Fill the shoes of manhood and put as many people and responsibilities on your shoulders as you can possibly bear.

And fucking bear it.

You'll find you get more satisfaction out of life, get more respect from people, and can look yourself in the eye instead of bitching how a broken system and the people that came before you ruined the world and your chances of success and happiness.

Tuff love. Take care of people because life is hard enough as it is and we're all in this together.

:cockafuck:



:justastonishing:


--------------------
You are what is. That's all.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Northerner] * 4
    #26554636 - 03/24/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I also agree with self assisted "suicide". I also believe the trisomy 21 test was invented (discovered/ordained by god in man's minds or whatever the fuck anyone wants to call it) for a reason (and regular abortion). There should not be ONE down syndrome baby on the planet, but there are people that can not afford health care, so there will be some. I also know for me that quality of life is more important than quantity of life. When the time comes that I am no longer able to perform ADL's, then I'll check out. I'm sure it will be more accepted by then (hopefully) and more facilities for that will be open. Of course I say that now, I'll see when I get there.

@ Patlal: As far as letting the virus just take people, no, I don't believe that should be. It will get who it gets and we should try and save the people we can.



To the people who are doing the care of elderly, down syndrome people, and ones who can not take care of themselves, you have my upmost respect. That is a job that is very demanding, but I can see what you might get from it. Money can NEVER buy that. It takes a VERY strong person to do those things.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26554669 - 03/24/20 08:23 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I feel any person with a substantial death wish should have access to a pill with lets say a milligram of carfentanil.

But you can't do what the Nazis did and "get rid of" people you consider a burden whi in themselves would have sufficient quality of life.

America has no physician assisted suicide but then again they do have this:





If you want this to happen to your watermelon, you passed the Darwin test and are good to go.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Asante]
    #26554680 - 03/24/20 08:30 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

It shows 9 states here are ok with it.

nine US states
(CNN) Physician-assisted suicide is legal in nine US states and the District of Columbia. It is an option given to individuals by law in the District of Columbia, Hawaii, Maine, New Jersey, Oregon, Vermont and Washington. It is an option given to individuals in Montana and California via court decision.

As of September 2019, aid in dying statutes are in effect in: California, Colorado, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Maine, New Jersey, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington. In Montana, physician-assisted dying has been legal by State Supreme Court ruling since 2009.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 2
    #26554705 - 03/24/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

To be honest..

I led a very violent life. Not that I was violent, I was a huge pussy, but I was subjected to many forms of abuse by many people during my formative years and by circumstance, long after.

If I needed "euthanasia" I much rather blow my head into a red mist with a 500 magnum or hand grenade to the side of the head, than take a "peaceful pill" or worse, burden a doctor by giving a lethal injection.

Of course blowing your head off with a live grenade shouting "I'M COMING LORD!" poses practical problems in a hospital room of four :lol:

In Holland you get the choice between lethal injection by a doctor or drinking a poison cup. I don't want to burden a doctor with the karma of killing me so I'd go for the cup if possible.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #26554710 - 03/24/20 08:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

We have something in common friend.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 1
    #26554753 - 03/24/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Drinking a poison cup though...  Starring at it knowing that it'll kill you...  Wouldn't trigger an immediate urge to vomit it up?

Imagine the anxiety after drinking it.  Like this is it. You're gonna die.  It could lead to panic IMO.

How fast does that drink take before you're out?


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Why don't we just let the old and vulnerable die? [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 4
    #26554765 - 03/24/20 09:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

My cousin has downs syndrome and it's hard sometimes but he's in good health and can do most of the basic stuff for himself.


He even has a "job" where he volunteers for a local farm. And he loves it, he loves being treated like a person and given a purpose. And seeing the cows.




The real problem is that there's not a solid network of care. It's a problem for the intellectually disabled. The mentally ill. And the elderly.


We just fucking suck at taking care of people after we decided that women can have 'real' jobs. And concocted the fantasy that all these people will be fine with good meds and parents as its their responsibility to care for them.


When my aunt passes I don't know who's going to care for my cousin. I do know that when she was battling lung cancer it was largely left to his sister and me and my parents and that was tough.
Especially to his sister, who has kinda been forced into a care giving role by no choice of her own. :ohwell:




Honestly think we'd go a lot farther if everyone had just a little bit of compassion. Less pity, less resentment, and less avoidance. Pretending nursing homes and halfway houses aren't understaffed and underfunded and the red tape and monetary restrictions around both aren't problems doesn't make them so. Pretending the care people get there is the best that can be done to give them a satisfactory life does not make it so.


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          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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