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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: oculodextro]
    #26651523 - 05/05/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

oculodextro said:
Do you know what the medrxiv is used for?

Do you know how to provide journals that are conducted in a non-biased way? Do you know how to read the journal and make sure that the author isn't persuading you with their biases? Was the study even conducted in a sound scientific ways. Do the sources the authors provide even correlate to what they are trying to persuade you to believe?

You're linking a pre-print "Caution: Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."



Reply fail.  I think that was meant for koods, not SirTripAlot.

You're busted koods.

Quote:

oculodextro said:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858?via%3Dihub

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/05/coronavirus-whistleblower-health-human-services/?ref=hvper.com



Anything about the cocktail with zinc that we were talking about from Zelensky?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26651576 - 05/05/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

How am I busted?

There is nothing unusual or unexpected for study results to be released before they are peer reviewed because of the urgent nature of the research. It’s actually an ethical obligation to do so when your results demonstrate either excess harm or clear benefits. The FDA changed their recommendations based mainly on that study.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/20 07:53 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651609 - 05/05/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Based on the excess mortality seen in a number of trials, the ethics of even allowing more clinical trials is questionable.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651616 - 05/05/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They were all going to die anyway.


--------------------
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Offlineoculodextro
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651617 - 05/05/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Who is this Zelensky anyways?

Doesn't the government own stake in Plaquenil now?


Edited by oculodextro (05/05/20 08:17 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: oculodextro]
    #26651653 - 05/05/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

He’s probably a fox news quack

I suspect we will discover a tremendous amount of graft centered around hydroxychloroquine. A number of governors have reported that people approached them on behalf of the president suggesting they should stockpile the drug.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/20 08:36 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651655 - 05/05/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

am a fan of hydro, but still prefer outdoor

am honestly more interested in the hormone injection trials tho

Trials on both coasts of the US are exploring whether feminizing hormones have a protective effect for men

Quote:

As the novel coronavirus swept through communities around the world, preying disproportionately on the poor and the vulnerable, one disadvantaged group has demonstrated a remarkable resistance. Women, whether from China, Italy or the U.S., have been less likely to become acutely ill — and far more likely to survive.

Which has made doctors wonder: Could hormones produced in greater quantities by women be at work?

Now scientists on two coasts, acting quickly on their hunches in an effort to save men’s lives, are testing the hypothesis. The two clinical trials will each dose men with the sex hormones for limited durations.

Last week, doctors on Long Island in New York started treating Covid-19 patients with estrogen in an effort to increase their immune systems, and next week, physicians in Los Angeles will start treating male patients with another hormone that is predominantly found in women, progesterone, which has anti-inflammatory properties and can potentially prevent harmful overreactions of the immune system.

“There’s a striking difference between the number of men and women in the intensive care unit, and men are clearly doing worse,” said Dr. Sara Ghandehari, a pulmonologist and intensive care physician at Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles who is the principal investigator for the progesterone study. She said 75 percent of the hospital’s intensive care patients and those on ventilators are men.

And pregnant women, who are usually immunocompromised but have high levels of estrogen and progesterone, tend to have mild courses of the disease. “So something about being a woman is protective, and something about pregnancy is protective, and that makes us think about hormones,” Dr. Ghandehari said.

Some experts who study sex differences in immunity, however, warned that hormones may fail to be the magic bullet that some are hoping for; even elderly women with Covid-19 are outliving their male peers, and there is a drastic reduction in levels of hormones for women after menopause.

The genesis of the estrogen trial at the Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University on Long Island stemmed from a similar observation, said Dr. Sharon Nachman, the trial’s principal investigator, who credited a Stony Brook surgeon, Dr. Antonios Gasparis, with the idea.

The trial enrolled its first patient this past week, and preliminary results could be available in a few months, she said.

“It’s totally out of the box, which is how good ideas often start,” said Dr. Nachman, associate dean for research at the Renaissance School, which is part of the State University of New York.

The gender gap in coronavirus survival became apparent early in the pandemic. Reports from China indicated men were dying at higher rates, but the disparity was attributed to higher smoking rates. But the outcomes were consistent in other countries, with men in Italy dying at higher rates than women, and men in New York City dying at nearly double the rate of women.

Scientists who study sex differences say that both biological differences in immunity, as well as behavioral factors are at play. Men smoke more almost everywhere, they say; men also wash their hands less. While women appear to have more robust immune systems, these experts say, the causes are complex and multifactorial, and hormones are only part of the picture.

If such sex hormones were the primary protective factor for women, then elderly women with Covid-19 would fare as poorly as elderly men, because women’s reproductive hormones plummet after menopause, said Sabra Klein, a scientist who studies sex differences in viral infections and vaccination responses at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

But that’s not the case, she said.

“We see this bias across the life course,” Dr. Klein said. “Older men are still disproportionately affected, and that suggests to me it’s got to be something genetic, or something else, that’s not just hormonal.”

“Estrogen has immune modulatory properties — don’t get me wrong,” she continued. “You could get a beneficial effect in both men and women. But if women are better at recovery at 93 years old, I doubt it’s hormones.”

Research has shown estrogen may have an effect on a protein known as angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), for example. The coronavirus uses ACE2 receptors on the surfaces of cells as an entry route, and ACE2 is regulated differently in men and women, said Kathryn Sandberg, director of the Center for the Study of Sex Differences in Health, Aging and Disease at Georgetown University.

In studies with rats, Dr. Sandberg and her colleagues have shown that estrogen can reduce ACE2 protein expression in their kidneys, so it is possible the hormone may reduce ACE2 expression in men as well.

Dr. Nachman said, “We may not understand exactly how estrogen works, but maybe we can see how the patient does,” adding that estrogen plays a complex role, both in the early immune response that can help clear a viral infection, as well as in a secondary clean up or repair response, which can evolve into a cytokine storm.

“While we see women do get infected, their responses are different,” Dr. Nachman said. “We see fewer of them having the second, disregulated immune response.”

The Stony Brook estrogen trial is recruiting 110 patients who come to the hospital’s emergency room with symptoms like fever, cough, shortness of breath or pneumonia, and who have either tested positive for Covid-19 or are presumed to have the illness, as long as they do not require intubation.

The trial is open to adult men as well as to women aged 55 and older, since they have low levels of estrogen. Half of the participants will be given an estradiol patch for one week, while the other half will serve as a control group, and researchers will follow them to see whether estrogen reduces the severity of their disease.

The Cedars-Sinai study is smaller, with only 40 subjects, all men, half of whom will be a control group. Only hospital inpatients with mild to moderate disease who have tested positive for Covid-19 can participate. (Patients with certain conditions, like a history of blood clots, are excluded for safety reasons.)

The patients will get two shots of progesterone a day for five days.

They will be monitored to see if their status is improving, how their needs for oxygen change and whether they go on to require intensive care or mechanical ventilation; their progress will be compared to patients in the control group.

The researchers in Los Angeles are pinning their hopes on progesterone rather than estrogen because research has shown that the hormone reduces pro-inflammatory immune cells, and supports those that fight inflammation, Dr. Ghandehari said. The hypothesis is that progesterone will prevent or dampen a harmful overreaction of the immune system, called a cytokine storm, and will reduce the likelihood of acute respiratory distress syndrome.

Both hormones are believed to be safe, especially when used for short durations. Participants will be warned of possible side effects that may be a first for many men, like tenderness in the breast and hot flashes.



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/health/coronavirus-estrogen-men.html

Find particular interest here, because there are also studies being done to examine whether nicotine has a protective effect
on account of stats suggesting something to do with smokers being less likely or getting it less badly
yet when looking in to the gender-based data, the presumption in China had been that men were getting it more severely because of smoking
when it may have been on account of being men

tho am worried about the Estradiol trials inhibitting my reliable access to my pills
the Progesterone trials being successful could imply my ability to ask my doctor to get me on it earlier than normal (often transwomen have to be on E and T-blockers for months to years before being approved for further HRT)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651657 - 05/05/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Based on the excess mortality seen in a number of trials, the ethics of even allowing more clinical trials is questionable.



With the Zelenko cocktail?  Source, or make believe?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26651676 - 05/05/20 08:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You’re absolutely obsessed.

When your primary active ingredient shows no benefit, or it is known to be toxic and you see data indicating that it may be associated with higher mortality, you need to have a debate about the ethics of continuing to offer that drug even in an experimental setting. Properly done clinical trials are by their nature gambling with people’s lives and when you see enough evidence that either the drug is causing harm or the drug is clearly working, then continuing randomized controlled clinical trials is no longer ethical.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineoculodextro
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Tantrika]
    #26651677 - 05/05/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Men tend to get hit by viral infections due to testerone if I am remembering correctly. Our immune systems to go fucking nuts over invaders compared to women's immune systems and hormones.

I saw the nicotine studies as well seem a bit flawed, but interesting none the less.

We really need to genetic test who express these ACE receptors in a certain way and then we will know who comes down asymptomatic vs dying.


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Offlineoculodextro
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: oculodextro]
    #26651680 - 05/05/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

"These virologic results stand in contrast with those reported by Gautret et al. and cast doubts about the strong antiviral efficacy of this combination. Furthermore, in their report Gautret et al. also reported one death and three transfers to the ICU among the 26 patients who received hydroxychloroquine, also underlining the poor clinical outcome with this combination.

In addition, a recent study from China in individuals with COVID-19 found no difference in the rate of virologic clearance at 7 days with or without 5 days of hydroxychloroquine, and no difference in clinical outcomes (duration of hospitalisation, temperature normalisation, radiological progression) [4]. These results are consistent with the lack of virologic or clinical benefit of chloroquine in a number of viral infections where it was assessed for treatment or prophylaxis with sometimes a deleterious effect on viral replication [5], [6], [7], [8]."

People pushing Plaquenil, have stakes to make this drug go from a generic to now an expensive cocktail.


Edited by oculodextro (05/05/20 08:51 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26651697 - 05/05/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Based on the excess mortality seen in a number of trials, the ethics of even allowing more clinical trials is questionable.



With the Zelenko cocktail?  Source, or make believe?




There’s nothing special about his fucking cocktail. The Chinese were essentially doing the same thing since day one.

The Gautret study was a joke. It wasn’t even looking at outcomes, just viral load. They removed patients from the study if their clinical status changed. Four of the HCQ patients were removed from the study because their health deteriorated to the point they had to be intubated. One died. I dont know the motivation of Gautret, but their paper was misrepresented or misunderstood by certain people, including the president. Some of these misrepresentations may have risen to the level of criminal activity.

And I agree. This obsession with HCQ is die almost entirely with the absolute goldmine potential of getting an off patent drug approved to treat a disease that threatens the whole world.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/20 09:03 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651708 - 05/05/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
When your primary active ingredient shows no benefit, or it is known to be toxic and you see data indicating that it may be associated with higher mortality, you need to have a debate about the ethics of continuing to offer that drug even in an experimental setting. Properly done clinical trials are by their nature gambling with people’s lives and when you see enough evidence that either the drug is causing harm or the drug is clearly working, then continuing randomized controlled clinical trials is no longer ethical.



But the study you posted showed better results when hydroxychloroquine (HC) was combined with azithromycin than when HC was used alone.  So adding zinc to the mix could possibly provide even better results, especially given the cocktail's early success.

Again, I'm not saying it's a cure, I'm only saying that it should be looked into.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26651716 - 05/05/20 09:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. Anthony Cardillo, CEO of Mend Urgent Care, says that “Every patient I’ve prescribed it to has been very, very ill and within 8 to 12 hours, they were basically symptom-free.”




This is complete bullshit. This isnt science. This is a scam.

I honestly do not understand why these people get away with this. While it is legal for a doctor to prescribe any approved medicine as he sees fit, it is completely against the law to promote a drug as a treatment for a condition it has not been approved to treat.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/20 09:12 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: oculodextro]
    #26651722 - 05/05/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

oculodextro said:
Who is this Zelensky anyways?




He's a doctor that has been claiming miraculous cures if you come to him for hydroxychloroquine treatment. Corsi the right wing talk show host was trying to contact him for better fraud coordination, but accidentally emailed the guy investigating Covid fraud.

Now they're both being investigated for fraud. Mostly because they claimed that they had the backing of the FDA, when they did not.

Falcon doesn't like that, he thinks they're both very fine people. The best people.

Falcon's theory is that since a similar drug cocktail was being researched by someone else, Zelensky should be able to claim that his drug cocktail got FDA approval.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods] * 1
    #26651725 - 05/05/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Zelenko reported excellent results, and the reason why was explained in the first article.

I'm just saying it should be looked into until you, oculodextro, or a study proves it's a scam.

"NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!  TRUMP MUST NOT BE PROVEN CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!"
:scream:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26651730 - 05/05/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You seem to be lacking in any ability to detect bullshit

You are what scammers call “a mark”


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/20 09:18 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Kryptos]
    #26651733 - 05/05/20 09:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
He's a doctor that has been claiming miraculous cures if you come to him for hydroxychloroquine treatment. Corsi the right wing talk show host was trying to contact him for better fraud coordination, but accidentally emailed the guy investigating Covid fraud.

Now they're both being investigated for fraud.

Falcon doesn't like that, he thinks they're both very fine people. The best people.



:dudewtf:

I said Corsi wasn't being investigated, and even koods confirmed this.

I don't know fellas - Kryptos has been trying pretty hard.  Do we have a new King of Make Believe?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #26651737 - 05/05/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You seem to be lacking in any ability to detect bullshit



You seem to be lacking in any ability to find a source for your claim that the Zelenko cocktail doesn't work.  Show it and I'm good.  Just stop make believing for crying out loud.

I don't know fellas - koods doesn't want to give up his King of Make Believe crown.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26651740 - 05/05/20 09:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There's no evidence of Corsi being exonerated, nor that he is not being investigated. Normally, people that are not investigated don;t get their records seized. Koods is wrong.


Edited by Enlil (05/05/20 09:23 PM)


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