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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544532 - 11/15/21 04:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

No offense, but I'd rather see a proper source?



No offense but I couldn’t find one so I had to do the math myself which you are welcome to do.

I did your research.

Here’s the numbers you need:

Average m.w. mRNA nucleotide: 400
Nucleotides in vaccine mRNA: 3800
mRNA dose in vaccine 30ug -100 μg

Have at it



It's not 'my research', you were the one making the claims, burden of proof was on you. I wouldn't trust any number I'd arrive at either, anyway.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544552 - 11/15/21 04:24 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

So you want to redefine sterilizing immunity? Because for most diseases that has always meant no symptomatic disease. Mass testing asymptomatic people for disease is not something that ever happened before covid.

How about we see your real world data supporting your hypothesis about natural immunity. Maybe I do need to state the obvious: Natural immunity has a 100% infection rate.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544560 - 11/15/21 04:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
So you want to redefine sterilizing immunity? Because for most diseases that has always meant no symptomatic disease. Mass testing asymptomatic people for disease is not something that ever happened before covid.

How about we see your real world data supporting your hypothesis about natural immunity. Maybe I do need to state the obvious: Natural immunity has a 100% infection rate.



I have never seen sterilizing immunity used in that way. Just look it up, if you're using it differently than roughly meaning 'preventing' infection to some reasonably high degree, then you're using it differently. Sterilizing immunity prevents the virus from replicating and spreading (to some reasonably high degree), and thus prevents occurrence of the disease. When the COVID vaccines were first rolled out, efficacy was being defined based off of prevention of symptomatic clinical disease, not preventing infection of the virus itself. The measles vax offers sterilizing immunity, so I thought we were on the same page here.

And yes, of course having natural immunity implies you've been infected. What data do you want to see? I've only referenced the Israel study that found it confers stronger and longer lasting immunity (along with better sterilization properties), along with another study concluding the same (and that it's more robust against delta).

Anyway, here's a study that shows no correlation between vaccination rates and case count dropping. Remember, I'm just trying to show consensus is weak, because if it is, mandates shouldn't be supported:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 04:35 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544569 - 11/15/21 04:34 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I see lots of papers comparing antibodies and immune cell titers. I’ve seen not a single thing that shows natural immunity prevents all reinfection, which is the standard you want to hold the vaccines to. Nobody has ever presented that data here. People that have been infected twice make the argument that natural immunity is better, which is hilarious.


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NotSheekle said
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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544580 - 11/15/21 04:42 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Like feevers said, arguing that natural immunity is better at preventing infection is absurd because you have to get infected to get it. You’re holding the vaccines to a standard by which natural immunity fails by definition. Every single person which natural immunity has been host to replicating virus, and you’re nitpicking the breakthrough rate of the boosters. the logic escapes me.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544583 - 11/15/21 04:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I see lots of papers comparing antibodies and immune cell titers. I’ve seen not a single thing that shows natural immunity prevents all reinfection, which is the standard you want to hold the vaccines to. Nobody has ever presented that data here. People that have been infected twice make the argument that natural immunity is better, which is hilarious.



I didn't say natural immunity prevents all reinfection, I said the Israel study found the sterilizing properties of natural immunity were better. i.e it's better at preventing reinfection. I didn't say it totally prevents it, or offers total sterilizing immunity.

Study is right here, again:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Notice that the study distinguishes between symptomatic disease and infection. Ultimately we want to reduce both, but the harm I incur on society, not myself, is reduced by minimizing odds of infection. If natural immunity is superior in this regard, it then follows that... well, you get it by now surely.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544592 - 11/15/21 04:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Like feevers said, arguing that natural immunity is better at preventing infection is absurd because you have to get infected to get it. You’re holding the vaccines to a standard by which natural immunity fails by definition. Every single person which natural immunity has been host to replicating virus, and you’re nitpicking the breakthrough rate of the boosters. the logic escapes me.



I think you misunderstand. It requires infection to develop natural immunity. But after that, the infection prevention properties seem to be greater.

I think it has been shown vaccines reduce viral infection rates, but less so for delta, and efficacy wanes quickly. I'm still conflicted as a lot of macro data suggest otherwise. Initially it was literally unknown if they reduce viral infection or transmission, as only reduction of symptomatic disease vs placebo was tested for in the trials (i.e, only people who displayed symptoms were tested, data on transmission or asymptomatic cases was not gathered). I have not checked on the new data regarding transmission and infection reduction, I keep hearing conflicting things due to delta. But, the study I linked demonstrated natural immunity was superior at both preventing viral infection and reducing symptomatic disease.

I am not at risk, my odds of significant negative effects from COVID are tiny, and the vaccines may not protect me from 'long covid' or spike proteins either. The spike proteins from the vaccines may or may not biodistribute and may or may not be harmful. So the risk profile for vaccines and endless boosters is not exactly perfect either, and in addition I'm still at risk of COVID if I don't boost in time or a new, hypothetical variant arises.

This is a coronavirus, I don't expect sterilizing immunity for a lifetime as it should continue to produce variants. But if natural immunity provides substantially better sterilizing properties for a longer time (i.e, better prevents me from getting infected and thus reduces spread to others), along with more robustness against variants, it may be best for society that I elect to develop it.

What am I nitpicking about boosters? Unfortunately the terms infection and disease are used ambiguously often, understandably. So I try to stick to symptomatic disease and infection, I guess I should really say 'viral infection' to be even more clear. Ideally you want something that prevents viral infection, since that obviously prevents symptomatic disease. That's what the measles vax does.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 06:12 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544675 - 11/15/21 06:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Like feevers said, arguing that natural immunity is better at preventing infection is absurd because you have to get infected to get it. You’re holding the vaccines to a standard by which natural immunity fails by definition. Every single person which natural immunity has been host to replicating virus, and you’re nitpicking the breakthrough rate of the boosters. the logic escapes me.




You're talking to someone who seems to think that vaccines are virus repelling force fields and spike proteins are tiny caltrops in your bloodstream or something.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544679 - 11/15/21 06:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
You're talking to someone who seems to think that spike proteins are tiny caltrops in your bloodstream or something.



Anything of substance to say, my friend?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544687 - 11/15/21 06:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You first


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544699 - 11/15/21 06:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
You first



Feel free to disagree with or contradict something I've said. I've made every attempt to back everything I say up.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 06:21 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 4
    #27544703 - 11/15/21 06:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I know you have but you aren't good at interpreting data and you have a very rudimentary understanding of the material you are trying to present as support for your mistaken beliefs so your attempts have failed utterly.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544705 - 11/15/21 06:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I know you have but you aren't good at interpreting data and you have a very rudimentary understanding of the material you are trying to present as support for your mistaken beliefs so your attempts have failed utterly.



Please provide examples and point out my mistaken beliefs. I've only been quoting conclusions from papers, I don't believe I've once made an attempt to interpret any data independently.

To me, it sounds like you're just categorically denying everything I've presented, without logical reason.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 06:27 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544779 - 11/15/21 07:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, you've already provided enough examples for both of us


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544793 - 11/15/21 07:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Nah, you've already provided enough examples for both of us



Had a feeling you'd pass on your opportunity to provide meaningful input, and/or risk being wrong. Oh, well..


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 07:37 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544805 - 11/15/21 07:37 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

As I said, you first.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544816 - 11/15/21 07:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
As I said, you first.



I've already posted like a hundred times, no point in randomly repeating stuff. You apparently already have critiques in mind, so I invite you to instead let me know where you disagree.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27544847 - 11/15/21 08:22 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I disagree with your wasting everyone's time with the "just asking questions" schtick


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544859 - 11/15/21 08:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I disagree with your wasting everyone's time with the "just asking questions" schtick



That's largely unrelated to where we're at now, but regardless, I've sourced everything I've said and don't believe I'm fundamentally mistaken somehow. I've asked for sources to confirm what I did not know as fact as well. I did have genuine concerns of where one draws the line and drifts off into conspiracy level anti-vaxxer stuff. I see I may be 'over the line' to most here despite only sourcing what I believe are, to the best of my knowledge, legit studies from respected institutions. This is kind of annoying because I feel like my perspective is scientifically accurate and logical, but I invite you to show me otherwise. I see the logic in getting vaccinated as well, to be clear. I'm not here to tell you guys you're wrong, as I've seen done to my perspective without proper reason.

My thesis is just that opting for natural immunity through exposure isn't strictly illogical, and that mandates then aren't appropriate.

You seem to imply I'm here to 'just ask questions' while secretly promoting some agenda/disinfo or something. Not sure why you're so adversarial. I'm just looking for dialogue, and genuinely don't understand why pro-vaxxers don't see the logic of those who would rather not vaccinate. I understand both perspectives but believe it should be left to the individual.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 08:44 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544873 - 11/15/21 08:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Because it isn't logical, it's based on the erroneous belief that natural immunity is equivalent or superior to vaccination and it would be silly to let you and your ilk take up all the air in the room with your nonsense when you don't understand the subject matter and aren't interested in learning.


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