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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers]
#27441061 - 08/24/21 01:39 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
feevers said: More research is needed because there is no evidence that ivermectin works. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it means that the sort of claims being made around ivermectin should not be being made, because there is no conclusive evidence and instead only preliminary data suggesting the drug may be worth studying, which stands in direct contrast to the "miracle cure" title alternative media is giving the drug.
I agree. But we were talking about Jimmy Dore, not the crazies out there.
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feevers said: Meanwhile...
https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/ "-No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
-No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
-A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.
We do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information."
Do you realize Merck partnered with Johnson & Johnson on the Covid vaccine?
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feevers said: Also... Two of the largest and most cited studies were operating on made-up data and both have been pulled. When the data from these fraudulent studies is taken out of the equation, ivermectin does not work or actually makes things worse.
Study #1 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/surgisphere-sows-confusion-about-another-unproven-covid19-drug-67635
Quote:
One of the most influential studies on ivermectin’s effect in COVID-19 patients was a large observational study that used a database owned by Surgisphere, a now-discredited Illinois-based company founded by vascular surgeon Sapan Desai. That study, published on the preprint server SSRN in early April and updated a couple weeks later, reported a strong positive association between ivermectin treatment and COVID-19 patient survival, and has been cited in white papers and reports by Latin American health researchers and governments as evidence of the drug’s efficacy
But the preprint disappeared at the end of May after scientists began pointing out problems with Surgisphere’s dataset—which by that point had been used in high-profile studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) and The Lancet. Both journals issued retractions earlier this month after Desai’s coauthors said they were unable to verify the validity of Surgisphere’s COVID-19 patient data. Investigations by The Scientist and The Guardian also revealed discrepancies in Surgisphere’s claims going back years, and the company’s website has now been taken offline. Desai did not respond to multiple requests for comment from The Scientist.
#2 "Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns" https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns
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If you remove this one study from the scientific literature, suddenly there are very few positive randomised control trials of ivermectin for Covid-19. Indeed, if you get rid of just this research, most meta-analyses that have found positive results would have their conclusions entirely reversed.”
“The authors claimed to have done the study only on 18-80 year olds, but at least three patients in the dataset were under 18,” Lawrence said.
“The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”
There were other concerns.
“In their paper, the authors claim that four out of 100 patients died in their standard treatment group for mild and moderate Covid-19,” Lawrence said. “According to the original data, the number was 0, the same as the ivermectin treatment group. In their ivermectin treatment group for severe Covid-19, the authors claim two patients died, but the number in their raw data is four.”
Lawrence and the Guardian sent Elgazzar a comprehensive list of questions about the data, but did not receive a reply. The university’s press office also did not respond.
Not to mention even the preliminary in-vitro studies that sparked most of this research had to use doses that are literally not even obtainable in humans to cause an effect, and everything kills COVID in-vitro.
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The available pharmacokinetic data for ivermectin indicate that at the doses routinely used for the management of parasitic diseases the SARS-CoV-2 inhibitory concentrations are practically not attainable. At present any empiric treatment with ivermectin or its inclusion in therapeutic protocols are not scientifically justifiable. The very consideration of the drug as a broad spectrum antiviral agent is incorrect because it has failed to demonstrate antiviral effects beyond the in vitro level. Pending the paucity of reliable data from controlled studies and the aforementioned pharmacokinetic considerations, the application of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients is to be decisively discouraged."
"The analyzed data show that, at least at the clinically relevant dose ranges of ivermectin, the published in vitro inhibitory concentrations and especially the 5 µmol/L level causing almost total disappearance of viral RNA are virtually not achievable with the heretofore known dosing regimens in humans. The 5 µmol/L concentration is over 50 times higher than the levels attainable after 700 μg/kg [25] and 17 times higher vs. the largest Cmax found in the literature survey (247.8 ng/ml) [12]. Moreover the authors` claim for achieving viral inhibition with a single dose is inappropriate because practically the infected cells have been continuously exposed at concentrations that are virtually unattainable even with excessive dosing of the drug. In other words, the experimental design is based on clinically irrelevant drug levels with inhibitory concentrations whose targeting in a clinical trial seems doubtful at best."
"Ivermectin has been previously shown to exert antiviral activity in vitro against Dengue fever virus (DENV) [28], influenza virus [38], West Nile Virus [26], Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus [27] and heralded as a possible antiviral drug, but so far there has not been any clinical translation of these data. Noteworthy, a clinical trial for the treatment of Dengue fever in Thailand failed to show clinical benefits [11]. In light of the aforementioned pharmacokinetic considerations, this is not surprising given that the published inhibitory concentrations against DENV1-4 ranged within 1.66–2.32 µmol/L [28].
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13102818.2020.1775118
While further research showed no changes to any biological marker associated with COVID after ivermectin administration: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0242184
So we're back to what I said before - more research is needed. Unfortunately, generic drugs aren't profitable, so why would anyone spend the money on the required research while big pharma is fighting it?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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*shares study about smearing crocodile dung on your vagina as a contraceptive*
“Bro, look at what he shared.” “And?” “Why would anyone smear crocodile shit on themselves rather than just use a condom?” “Are you going to trust Big Contraceptive? There were some hieroglyphics about this in Egypt that lend credence to its effectiveness. Folks can either smear croc shit on their genitals or use condoms. Personally, I use condoms.”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Do you have any preliminary evidence crocodile dung is an effective contraceptive? Or that it isn't harmful to put on a vagina? I've shared a few studies now showing there is potential for ivermectin to be effective, but you're basically like "NOOOOOOO! We MUST NOT investigate, we must let big pharma call all the shots!"
Again, I'm not supporting the crazies out there, and there are plenty. Jimmy Dore and I are both vaccinated. I'm just saying there is some data showing ivermectin may prove to be helpful. We may never find out if there isn't money to fund large scale studies of generic drugs.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
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More research is needed on literally everything, that doesn't mean that a comedian choosing to hop on the bandwagon of one of those things is not motivated by profit at the expense of actual truth. Ivermectin gets clicks with the crowd he appeals to and the rogan world that brought him many more millions, saying 'get the vaccine' does not do that.
If Dore is concerned about things that help against COVID, why not link to any of the piles of endless data on something that all but eliminates COVID risk... the vaccine? Even if ivermectin actually worked and was 100% effective who the hell wants to ingest daily doses of an antiparasitic when they could just get a safe and effective vaccine?
Also, merck makes ivermectin... Generic doesn't matter, if they got it approved to treat COVID (and it actually worked) they would have exclusive rights to market it as a covid treatment and would be extremely profitable. You are somehow arguing that big pharma wants to do shady shit to make money but also doesn't want to do legitimate shit that would likely make them more money.
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koods
Ribbit


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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: If your planning to fly to Florida it would be wise to be vaccinated .
Here's a video of some people in the hospital wondering if they should have gotten vaccinated. One of the guys who was interviewed died shortly thereafter...
“I don’t know how close I am to being a lot worse”
Nine days
Dude still was arguing against the vaccine. The antivaxx movement is killing so many people.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
#27441326 - 08/24/21 04:40 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why get a free vaccine that reduces your chance of being hospitalized by 97% when you can pay $20 to put some paste on a cracker that won’t do a fucking thing

You can’t reason with these people. Mandate the vaccine now.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers] 1
#27441449 - 08/24/21 05:46 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
feevers said: More research is needed on literally everything, that doesn't mean that a comedian choosing to hop on the bandwagon of one of those things is not motivated by profit at the expense of actual truth.
Jimmy's just saying that some doctors (as shown by the article he linked to) think ivermectin has potential. If he's saying people should take it instead of a vaccine, please share a link to that. The establishment wants you to hate Jimmy Dore, just like they want you to hate anyone that calls them out (Julian Assange, Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate, etc).
Quote:
feevers said: Ivermectin gets clicks with the crowd he appeals to and the rogan world that brought him many more millions
Source, or make believe?
Quote:
feevers said: If Dore is concerned about things that help against COVID, why not link to any of the piles of endless data on something that all but eliminates COVID risk... the vaccine? Even if ivermectin actually worked and was 100% effective who the hell wants to ingest daily doses of an antiparasitic when they could just get a safe and effective vaccine?
Now you're the one playing on people's fears by calling it an "antiparasitic". I realize that's one use, but if it's 100% effective, who cares? Jimmy supports the vaccines, and he even spoke out against Bill Gates for saying the vaccine's patent rights should be enforced in poor countries, preventing the poor from getting it sooner:
Quote:
feevers said: Also, merck makes ivermectin... Generic doesn't matter, if they got it approved to treat COVID (and it actually worked) they would have exclusive rights to market it as a covid treatment and would be extremely profitable. You are somehow arguing that big pharma wants to do shady shit to make money but also doesn't want to do legitimate shit that would likely make them more money.
Ivermectin is the generic drug. Sure, if Merck wanted to sell Stromectol as a Covid treatment, they can try to get people to pay more, but everyone knows they can just get Ivermectin.
Again, Jimmy never said Ivermectin was a substitute for the vaccine. He just pointed to an article saying it has potential, and the establishment media is taking things out of context to get people to hate on Jimmy, and some here buy it.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
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Loc: Hampsterdam
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Who doesn’t want to be parasite free?
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qman
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: He can’t do that though.
An abrupt about-face on his ideology screams grift, he’s gotta maintain his lefty bona fides while carefully wading towards the online media market whose audience is primarily young and right wing, hence the constant shitting on democrats.
What would the right wing find appealing about Dore exactly? Shitting on Dems that act like Republicans is appealing to the right wing? Shitting on Trump is appealing to the right wing? He's a liberal progressive that calls out the 'progressive' elected politicians selling out in the Democratic Party.
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christopera
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: qman]
#27441643 - 08/24/21 08:54 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Somebody should start a thread about how Dore made up a story about getting hacked by the NSA. It would be a lot of fun. Hell, we can just make up the story here.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: qman]
#27441696 - 08/24/21 09:37 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: He can’t do that though.
An abrupt about-face on his ideology screams grift, he’s gotta maintain his lefty bona fides while carefully wading towards the online media market whose audience is primarily young and right wing, hence the constant shitting on democrats.
What would the right wing find appealing about Dore exactly? Shitting on Dems that act like Republicans is appealing to the right wing? Shitting on Trump is appealing to the right wing? He's a liberal progressive that calls out the 'progressive' elected politicians selling out in the Democratic Party.
It doesn’t matter to these people WHY they’re shitting on Dems, they just want their feelings validated.
“Wow, even the lefties get it!”
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: He can’t do that though.
An abrupt about-face on his ideology screams grift, he’s gotta maintain his lefty bona fides while carefully wading towards the online media market whose audience is primarily young and right wing, hence the constant shitting on democrats.
What would the right wing find appealing about Dore exactly? Shitting on Dems that act like Republicans is appealing to the right wing? Shitting on Trump is appealing to the right wing? He's a liberal progressive that calls out the 'progressive' elected politicians selling out in the Democratic Party.
It doesn’t matter to these people WHY they’re shitting on Dems, they just want their feelings validated.
“Wow, even the lefties get it!”
I think it does matter because the conservative narrative is that Biden, AOC, Bernie and others truly are promoting and implementing a socialist ideology on the US political system. What Dore is pointing out is the complete opposite and that goes into direct conflict with the conservative narrative on Democrats.
Getting angry that Dems are failing to help the US population says what exactly about Republicans that don't even make the effort to fake it? I don't think the right wing would find Dore very appealing at all, it makes their current narratives appear to be loaded with hypocrisy, I don't see them embracing that outcome.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
christopera said: Somebody should start a thread about how Dore made up a story about getting hacked by the NSA. It would be a lot of fun. Hell, we can just make up the story here.
You want to make up another story about Jimmy Dore to make him look bad? Alrighty then...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Loc: Milky way
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Don't need to make stuff up. He invited bill binney on his show 
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christopera
Stranger


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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
christopera said: Somebody should start a thread about how Dore made up a story about getting hacked by the NSA. It would be a lot of fun. Hell, we can just make up the story here.
You want to make up another story about Jimmy Dore to make him look bad? Alrighty then...
Jimmy looks bad without made up stories about the NSA, just like Tucker. Made up stories about being hacked by the NSA are straight self flagellation, it must be nice to feel so important.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Kryptos
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: qman]
#27442203 - 08/25/21 09:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: He can’t do that though.
An abrupt about-face on his ideology screams grift, he’s gotta maintain his lefty bona fides while carefully wading towards the online media market whose audience is primarily young and right wing, hence the constant shitting on democrats.
What would the right wing find appealing about Dore exactly? Shitting on Dems that act like Republicans is appealing to the right wing? Shitting on Trump is appealing to the right wing? He's a liberal progressive that calls out the 'progressive' elected politicians selling out in the Democratic Party.
It doesn’t matter to these people WHY they’re shitting on Dems, they just want their feelings validated.
“Wow, even the lefties get it!”
I think it does matter because the conservative narrative is that Biden, AOC, Bernie and others truly are promoting and implementing a socialist ideology on the US political system. What Dore is pointing out is the complete opposite and that goes into direct conflict with the conservative narrative on Democrats.
Getting angry that Dems are failing to help the US population says what exactly about Republicans that don't even make the effort to fake it? I don't think the right wing would find Dore very appealing at all, it makes their current narratives appear to be loaded with hypocrisy, I don't see them embracing that outcome.
You assume that ideological consistency is important. It is not.
What is important is to stay on the offensive and never play defense. Dore feeds that.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Kryptos]
#27442309 - 08/25/21 10:58 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, morons like MTG square that circle by saying the Bidens and Pelosis of the world are just corporate communists.
It doesn’t have to make sense. If people determined their political beliefs logically we’d all be leftists.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Don't need to make stuff up. He invited bill binney on his show 

Bill Binney is an NSA whistle blower. Why the facepalm? Are you against whistle blowers?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Quote:
christopera said: Jimmy looks bad without made up stories about the NSA, just like Tucker. Made up stories about being hacked by the NSA are straight self flagellation, it must be nice to feel so important.
Care to post one of Jimmy Dore's "made up stories about being hacked by the NSA", or are you the one making up stories?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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mycot
Crazy as fuck


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Loc: Australia
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Covid Cover-Up: New BOMBSHELL Lab Leak Report!!
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