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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26578007 - 04/04/20 08:00 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Well, the question is not whether humans can do something rocks can't do, but what is the difference between will and free will. Once one gets to that it becomes a more complex topic with various ethical and psychological considerations. :shrug:





Yeah,  but I do think it’s important to note the determinism of rocks that differs them from man.  I will give you my opinion that I gave you earlier, why the will is said to be free is because “will” refers simply to the initiation of action or just the initiation of being.  A rocks will is therefore determined relatively to that of a human whose will is liberated to be other than what nature decides. 

I do believe I see where you are coming from.  Isn’t “will” just will no matter what?  A rock doesn’t have will and therefore mans will isn’t free it’s just will.


--------------------
TM Time


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26578280 - 04/04/20 10:42 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I do believe I see where you are coming from.  Isn’t “will” just will no matter what?  A rock doesn’t have will and therefore mans will isn’t free it’s just will.




Yes, exactly. Much of the free will debate centers around the inclusion of the word free and the character of will. Free will is often expressed not just as choice, but whether one could have made a different choice.

This idea is untestable as is much pretty much all of the free will debate. I don't expect hard answers but it is an interesting topic. I generally discount the idea and play the skeptic because although will and randomness are just as mystical as free will in expression, at least there is some logic to support the ideas. Free will to me contains some element that isn't dependent on conditions, internal and external so it seems more mystical since I can't identify what that element might be. Perhaps there is a feel to what free will is, but having such an ability doesn't preclude it being an illusion.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26579037 - 04/05/20 09:15 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I think he's right actually and I think the view is supported both by modern methodology seekers like neurologists as well as old methodology seekers like Buddhists

The only thing I will say that differs, is that I think we may have some degree of control. That our exposure to certain ideas, concepts, and events may be purely random but they may not. And if they are not, it begs the question of cause and effect which is where I get interested personally




if you care about something, you move towards it, you immerse in it, your habits conform to it.
if you care about something else, you move towards that/or build it, you immerse and change.  That is the control, interest and conforming or harmonizing to the nature of the thing you are interested in.

Other types of control are mostly about posturing, defensive limiting, social aggrandizement, politics etc. all really reflexive.






Possibly. The amount of permutations is pretty much inconceivable to me. As they include not only the individual response but also the environmental ones. The environment being in part what I was referring to when I said ideas, concepts and events.

No one moves towards a car crash in practice. But they happen. But they don't happen to everyone at all points. IMO it's very difficult to tell why the things that happen do happen. And they could be random, they could be pre-determined, and/or they could be influenced by our actions. I think there is evidence for them all if you look for it.

I was thinking about this whole rock discussion. Why does a certain rock get kicked but the one next door doesn't? Is this will being enacted, randomness, or fate? I think one can make an argument along all lines. I personally disagree with the representation of a rocks movement as always being fated. It disregards all the elements that go into that occurrence as well as what happens next. And I feel similarly about my own experience.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26579183 - 04/05/20 10:37 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Here is a crude thought experiment about a rock

A rock has been existing for millennia. Over the course of that time it has changed shape, density, weight, etc. The way it is strong has changed. The way it is weak has changed. And now at this point in time it has certain characteristics that if we could pause time completely, would be set in stone (pun intended). These characteristics are what will be then taking part in the following:

A logging truck drives past on a steep mountainside road. The vibrations from the truck cause shifts in the soil and multiple rocks. Some rocks stay in place because of their geographical location, shape, density, weight, etc. But not this rock. This rock had a sharp edge that had caused it to be barely balanced on top of another stone. And so this vibration caused the rock to become imbalanced and start to tumble down the mountain. As it tumbled and came into contact with the environment, it sometimes splintered at it's weak points, at others it landed on a patch of moss which cushioned even these parts. Sometimes it hit something harder than it's strongest points and cracked. By the time that the energy from this event has been fully expelled, what was the "rock" is now several rocks, each that has created a new  shape, density, weight, geographic location, etc. They have impacted the environment around them in countless ways, causing some other rocks to now be barely balanced and susceptible to a similar fate. Others are now buried a few inches into the ground and will likely go through a different sort of metamorphosis over time. Some have been splintered apart as well. During the tumble a tree was hit by a sharp edge and now is oozing sap from it's pierced bark. The truck meanwhile has continued it's path up the mountain, unaware of all of this. The landscape is forever changed, the rock that was is no more, and new amalgamations exist with new potentials that did not exist prior.

Were all of these amalgamations pre-determined by physics? Was that truck always going to cause this? Did the driver have any role? If that tree happens to come upon drought and not be able to overcome it's wound and wither away, was this part of the pre-determined destiny? If that tree then falls in a windstorm, causing fungi to flourish, was this too destined? Years later a youth goes mushroom hunting in this area and upon seeing this hotbed of mushroom activity, wanders over. In route they sprain their ankle on a strange divot in the ground that had been caused by that rock tumble way back. Again, was this something that the driver had a hand in? Especially if they are completely unaware?

Maybe this year the mushroom hunter has had to quarantine due to the corona virus and did not make the voyage to their favorite spot, deeming it non-essential and fearing contact with others who typically use the same forest access point. And so now their ankle did not get sprained and the truck driver has none of this unseen liability. Thanks corona virus!


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26579606 - 04/05/20 02:11 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I do believe I see where you are coming from.  Isn’t “will” just will no matter what?  A rock doesn’t have will and therefore mans will isn’t free it’s just will.




Yes, exactly. Much of the free will debate centers around the inclusion of the word free and the character of will. Free will is often expressed not just as choice, but whether one could have made a different choice.

This idea is untestable as is much pretty much all of the free will debate. I don't expect hard answers but it is an interesting topic. I generally discount the idea and play the skeptic because although will and randomness are just as mystical as free will in expression, at least there is some logic to support the ideas. Free will to me contains some element that isn't dependent on conditions, internal and external so it seems more mystical since I can't identify what that element might be. Perhaps there is a feel to what free will is, but having such an ability doesn't preclude it being an illusion.





Once a decision is made by the will it can’t be changed.  I would argue that the will is determination.  But there is something that the will comes from in order to make a decision.  I agree that this place whatever it is is mysterious to say the least.


--------------------
TM Time


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26579792 - 04/05/20 03:31 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

what is an example of the will making a decision, as opposed to a person coming to a decision?

when I am undecided, I may need to mull over things, and maybe talk to someone, and eventually I seem to have a decision, or I come to a position in a flash right away, and I might even point to some milestones along the way - and that might make the decision look reasonable.

often I have the decision without really knowing what is the "reasoning", but I am committed to the direction of action as if in command or control, and if asked I will make up a reason.

for me it is about suitability, I see a suitable direction for me in the situation. no will that I can see in the process.


--------------------


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OfflineYellow Pants


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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26581272 - 04/06/20 09:16 AM (4 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what is an example of the will making a decision, as opposed to a person coming to a decision?

when I am undecided, I may need to mull over things, and maybe talk to someone, and eventually I seem to have a decision, or I come to a position in a flash right away, and I might even point to some milestones along the way - and that might make the decision look reasonable.

often I have the decision without really knowing what is the "reasoning", but I am committed to the direction of action as if in command or control, and if asked I will make up a reason.

for me it is about suitability, I see a suitable direction for me in the situation. no will that I can see in the process.





Maybe someone should make a thread on this ?  :shrug:


We could go down a rabbit hole of words and definitions.  But I look at the initiation of action where a will is involved.  Maybe it’s simply biological process, instinct, or calculated and decided.  When it’s contemplated there is an action that comes out of the realm of possible actions that could of been taken.  Maybe this applies to thought also?  Will is just the controlling aspect of perceiving possibility where a possibility is willed actual.  Not everybody defines it like this.


--------------------
TM Time


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26584563 - 04/07/20 05:52 PM (4 months, 5 days ago)

It has been too easy for our current generations...something needs to make us wake the fuck up. Many people today will not see the end...cdc says we will get off lucky with 100k dead. Fuck Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq...those were just an amusement. 100k didn't die in those wars combined but people complained like it was serious...this is serious.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26584760 - 04/07/20 07:14 PM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
It has been too easy for our current generations...something needs to make us wake the fuck up. Many people today will not see the end...cdc says we will get off lucky with 100k dead. Fuck Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq...those were just an amusement. 100k didn't die in those wars combined but people complained like it was serious...this is serious.




Whether life has been easy or too easy could be a debate within itself. Otherwise I agree. I'm just wondering how bad the fallout will be. 20-30% unemployment in the Western world isn't good for the Eastern world. A worldwide depression could make the virus death toll look small. Could end up extremely serious.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26584902 - 04/07/20 07:55 PM (4 months, 5 days ago)

The effect on the ecosystem is very good so far...pollution down and global warming could get a years setback...the economy will always recover. All things have an end...this virus, the bad economy, and maybe us. No sense being fearful be cautious.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26585559 - 04/08/20 05:11 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The effect on the ecosystem is very good so far...pollution down and global warming could get a years setback...the economy will always recover. All things have an end...this virus, the bad economy, and maybe us. No sense being fearful be cautious.



'zackly

and I also hope "could you do us a favor tho'" disappears in a puff


--------------------


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26585832 - 04/08/20 08:19 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Citys are going on lock down. Unemployment rising. Stocks diving. Airlines grounding. Events canceled.

And yet, I've seen only one person wearing a mask, and no one wearing gloves. I'm not sure if the population is taking this seriously or not. It's like a game to see who can horde the most toilet paper.

So which is worse?




Updated information, with statistics

‘By December, we are going to go through this again’

"As the United States faces down the dual crises of the Covid-19 pandemic and a widespread shortage of medical supplies and equipment, Dr. Janis Orlowski is working 13-15 hours a day trying to mitigate the damage.

As the chief health care officer of the Association of American Medical Colleges, she talks with senior government officials daily. She listens to the concerns of some of the biggest hospitals in the country — the shortages of masks and ventilators and ICU beds and doctors and nurses. And she’s sober-minded about the weeks and months ahead."

rest of article here:

https://news.yahoo.com/december-going-again-080037824.html


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26585874 - 04/08/20 08:50 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Gotta love a shady President who uses distraction to his advantage. Nothing quite like a billion dollar casino to motivate the taking of tribal land during a pandemic. And what corrupt fuckers underneath doing the deed.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/490362-federal-bureau-revoking-reservation-status-for

Really glad as a country we are cool with him removing all the watchdogs. Surely our billionaire owned media conglomerates will help us to see clearly in their stead. https://twitter.com/Deadspin/status/980175772206993409


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26586002 - 04/08/20 09:41 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The effect on the ecosystem is very good so far...pollution down and global warming could get a years setback...the economy will always recover. All things have an end...this virus, the bad economy, and maybe us. No sense being fearful be cautious.




So far so good. Farming practices could change. Less produce from more land. Animals that would have eaten grain may be put out to pasture. Condom shortages could spark an uptick in population. Small business fail while the rich get richer.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Updated information, with statistics

‘By December, we are going to go through this again’

"As the United States faces down the dual crises of the Covid-19 pandemic and a widespread shortage of medical supplies and equipment, Dr. Janis Orlowski is working 13-15 hours a day trying to mitigate the damage.

As the chief health care officer of the Association of American Medical Colleges, she talks with senior government officials daily. She listens to the concerns of some of the biggest hospitals in the country — the shortages of masks and ventilators and ICU beds and doctors and nurses. And she’s sober-minded about the weeks and months ahead."

rest of article here:

https://news.yahoo.com/december-going-again-080037824.html





As far as I'm aware nobody has ever created a vaccine for a corona virus. I hear there are some promising drugs that can treat the illness within 48 hours, though I'm guessing this would preclude building immunity.

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

This is the global map. You can click on individual countries and see the graphs for each. It seems like everyone is fairing about the same. A few countries are showing the first signs of the hump. India is just getting started. Anyway, I'm wondering how people will cope with the "social distancing" as time goes by. December could be a totally different ball game.

I've read a few things about sickness invading certain industries, but nothing on how essential workers are faring compared to those who are currently not working. That would be worth some consideration.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineNorthernblades
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26586030 - 04/08/20 09:51 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Northernblades]
    #26586145 - 04/08/20 11:09 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Haha, lovely.

But I'm not well versed in the use of bidets. Isn't there generally some wiping involved after the cleansing?

I'm down to 1.5 rolls of TP. Stores still selling out as soon as new product arrives. I've been attempting to get chummy with a few of the grocers, at proper social distance of course. The plan is to win their sympathy and get notified when new TP shipments will arrive.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26586196 - 04/08/20 11:41 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:


I'm down to 1.5 rolls of TP. .




Post your addy. Maybe someone can spare a square


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26586364 - 04/08/20 01:19 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)



--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Northernblades]
    #26586380 - 04/08/20 01:27 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Northernblades said:
any time I see someone worried about TP I feel the need to post this link

https://www.amazon.ca/Forart-Portable-Handheld-Capacity-Cleansing/dp/B0868JFGJR?ref_=s9_apbd_onr_hd_bw_b3Oas15&pf_rd_r=KQ8N5AZC03BAN26P666W&pf_rd_p=6d0817b8-a632-5430-b8a6-14e6942288b8&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-9&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=3111818011




Thanks Northernblades

Yes, & there are additional models for home use that attach to a shower head or under toilet to the water line -- and yes Rahz, some wiping is still necessary even if only to dry off & check if one got clean--but much less.
I may get a portable one, as I live with extended family & grandkids. And kids could make a real mess with one.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26586386 - 04/08/20 01:28 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

Rahz said:


I'm down to 1.5 rolls of TP. .




Post your addy. Maybe someone can spare a square




Thanks for the suggestion. I can make do without. It's just a little levity. If you know any hoarders, post their addy and I'll give them a visit. :crankey:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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