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OfflineYellow Pants

Registered: 05/14/17
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26567831 - 03/30/20 05:46 PM (4 months, 13 days ago)

Farewell tour is good stuff.  Hedges is an excellent resource.  His assertion that the establishment cannot be reformed from within is one that I resonate with.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26567874 - 03/30/20 06:08 PM (4 months, 13 days ago)

Good points. I would also recommend Morris Berman's trilogy: The Twilight of American Culture, Dark Ages America, and Why America Failed: The Roots of Imperial Decline. All this is of course also being discussed in the "End of Empire" thread.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26571450 - 04/01/20 03:14 PM (4 months, 11 days ago)

.    Much as we may dislike Trump, or fault certain current government officials,
the Covid-19 problem goes back a long ways--and is clearly the result of much ill advised human behavior, by vast numbers of people, as we can learn from Dr. Michael Greger's video on pandemic viruses recorded more than a decade ago when he was Public Health Director at the HSUS in Washington DC.
.  As you will see in the video the phrase "ill advised human behavior" is a gross understatement - but see for yourself:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention/?fbclid=IwAR2DI7w9-kteU0RH9jixl7rLUwxgscg4B5AQm9FponpsazQCD3ZuGE6hL-4


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“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26571582 - 04/01/20 04:31 PM (4 months, 11 days ago)

“Aren’t humans amazing? They kill wildlife – birds, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice and foxes by the million in order to protect their domestic animals and their feed. Then they kill domestic animals by the billion and eat them. This in turn kills people by the million, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative – and fatal – health conditions like heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, and cancer. So then humans spend billions of dollars torturing and killing millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, few people recognize the absurdity of humans, who kill so easily and violently, and once a year send out cards praying for “Peace on Earth.”~ David Coates


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26571964 - 04/01/20 08:15 PM (4 months, 11 days ago)

I’m detecting some vegetarian propaganda in mr. Coates..

But seriously, I do think man ransacks the world for the most part.  However, it would be a good first step to handle our own interpersonal relationships regarding violence and justice and truth before trying to tackle our relationship with the world at large.  If we can’t avoid killing and bombing and screwing each other what good is animal justice ?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572106 - 04/01/20 09:25 PM (4 months, 11 days ago)

I guess because people have no faith in each other. Waiting on people to fix people means animal justice never happens.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
Last seen: 11 hours, 30 minutes
Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26572802 - 04/02/20 08:39 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I guess because people have no faith in each other. Waiting on people to fix people means animal justice never happens.





True,  not directly doing anything about animal justice means it won’t happen.  But how many violent hippies do you know, or violent animal rights activists?  I guess it depends on what part of the world to focus on or globally altogether in terms of how society treats animals.  At the risk of going off topic.  :shrug:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572824 - 04/02/20 08:50 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature. IMO of course.

Which is not to say I am resigned to the way things are. But it does make a difference mentally to distinguish between assessing humanity as one wants and assessing things as they are. I also think it is quite natural to want improvement and is best acted upon when one isn't defeated by the way things are.


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26572841 - 04/02/20 09:03 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature. IMO of course.

Which is not to say I am resigned to the way things are. But it does make a difference mentally when assessing the scenario in the light of things should be different vs things are the way they are. I also think it is quite natural to want improvement.




Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572846 - 04/02/20 09:05 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

I ninja edited it. Let me know if that helps clarify meaning


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Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26572860 - 04/02/20 09:11 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Ok but I feel the statement “nature is violent” therefore “humans are violent because they are nature” has some holes in it of some kind. 

Humans are not like nature.  We aren’t deterministic processes, like a rock, that go through actions and effects without any personal accountability.  You don’t blame a rock for tumbling over a baby and killing it.  Man is held to a much different standard.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572868 - 04/02/20 09:14 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
I guess because people have no faith in each other. Waiting on people to fix people means animal justice never happens.





True,  not directly doing anything about animal justice means it won’t happen.  But how many violent hippies do you know, or violent animal rights activists?  I guess it depends on what part of the world to focus on or globally altogether in terms of how society treats animals.  At the risk of going off topic.  :shrug:




I don't think this post has been on topic since it's inception. :lol:

But sure, if the world was only filled with hippies. Nature, nurture, and quantum randomness ends up being a little bit of everything.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572872 - 04/02/20 09:15 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Well I mean nature quite broadly and not specifically. There are specific examples of nature not being violent. But at large it seems quite cutthroat to me. From a group of trees that are all competing to gain resources and often dwarfing one another or growing in asymmetrical and less than ideal ways, to the more obvious carnivorous animals, to looking at the process of evolution where certain traits are selected because they are what enable a species to survive. Why be poisonous? Why develop camouflage? Because the natural world isn't dangerous?

I think the stretch is to think that the traits we see in humanity were selected because they were detrimental rather than adaptive with regards to natural selection.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
Last seen: 11 hours, 30 minutes
Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26572887 - 04/02/20 09:27 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Well I mean nature quite broadly and not specifically. There are specific examples of nature not being violent. But at large it seems quite cutthroat to me. From a group of trees that are all competing to gain resources and often dwarfing one another or growing in asymmetrical and less than ideal ways, to the more obvious carnivorous animals, to looking at the process of evolution where certain traits are selected because they are what enable a species to survive. Why be poisonous? Why develop camouflage? Because the natural world isn't dangerous?

I think the stretch is to think that the traits we see in humanity were selected because they were detrimental rather than adaptive with regards to natural selection.





So what are you saying, that man gets a get out of jail free card because trees compete for sunlight?

You said “nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature” 

We’ve already made some progress with this.  Slavery is pretty much rejected universally as immoral for example.  And I know you referenced the desire for improvement, but you can’t really say that and also state that man is inevitably violent because of nature.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572919 - 04/02/20 09:50 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Well I don't think we are communicating well on this idea but that's ok.👍


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26572926 - 04/02/20 09:53 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So what are you saying, that man gets a get out of jail free card because trees compete for sunlight?

You said “nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature” 

We’ve already made some progress with this.  Slavery is pretty much rejected universally as immoral for example.  And I know you referenced the desire for improvement, but you can’t really say that and also state that man is inevitably violent because of nature.




Describing human behavior without rose colored glasses isn't the same as condoning it. The desire to be more (or less) is a facet of possibility, and can have mixed results. So it's "in the mix" and is just as valid a mode of thought or being as any other. Humans certainly don't generally give out get out of jail free cards because it's pointless to blame. We impose our will on others in an attempt to restrict or modify behavior as we see fit.

Slavery is rejected for the time being because we're in a period of excess.

I remember a video where a bear was trying to help an injured baby deer. I think many higher animals are capable of compassion beyond their species. Humans are perhaps different in that some of them are able to maintain such behavior.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26572951 - 04/02/20 10:10 AM (4 months, 10 days ago)

we were slaves in Egypt a few years back.--- hagada


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 650
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26573470 - 04/02/20 02:53 PM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So what are you saying, that man gets a get out of jail free card because trees compete for sunlight?

You said “nature is violent and so humans are violent as we are not separate from nature” 

We’ve already made some progress with this.  Slavery is pretty much rejected universally as immoral for example.  And I know you referenced the desire for improvement, but you can’t really say that and also state that man is inevitably violent because of nature.




Describing human behavior without rose colored glasses isn't the same as condoning it. The desire to be more (or less) is a facet of possibility, and can have mixed results. So it's "in the mix" and is just as valid a mode of thought or being as any other. Humans certainly don't generally give out get out of jail free cards because it's pointless to blame. We impose our will on others in an attempt to restrict or modify behavior as we see fit.

Slavery is rejected for the time being because we're in a period of excess.

I remember a video where a bear was trying to help an injured baby deer. I think many higher animals are capable of compassion beyond their species. Humans are perhaps different in that some of them are able to maintain such behavior.




Exactly, free will.  We’re not merely deterministic processes like “nature”.  Therefore, removing accountability from man and placing it onto “nature” just sounds like something somebody with a violent agenda would say to further push their immoral agenda.

I do wonder about that slavery comment.  Why do you believe that?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26573505 - 04/02/20 03:10 PM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Can you stop thinking? How about for an hour? 30 minutes? 10? 5? 1?

What degree of freedom do you have over thought? Genuinely curious


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineYellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26573542 - 04/02/20 03:44 PM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Can you stop thinking? How about for an hour? 30 minutes? 10? 5? 1?

What degree of freedom do you have over thought? Genuinely curious




Ok so you are saying that man is determined to some extent and also has free will to some extent.  In the realm of human on human violence what difference does it make?  Sure it’s one thing to become tired after being awake for 20 hours but that’s not really what we’re talking about.

There’s a grey area for sure when it comes to the justification for violence but that doesn’t make everything else non sense.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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