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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26931553 - 09/12/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can you screenshot the numbers or graphs? That site is troublesome to use.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: if someone has advanced heart disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune dysfunction, respiratory disease or a combination of them and others, how would it ultimately be determined that their death was actually from covid?
The number of people dying exactly during the 7-14 day (avg) that a deadly pandemic virus is detectable in their system, but their death had nothing to do with said pandemic virus, would be so rare as to not alter the stats on any significant or even noticeable level nationally/globally. Even if it happened 1% of the time (which is exponentially more than it would in reality), that would only mean there were 173,250 deaths instead of 175,000.
On an individual level, the doc writing the cause of death will use all the available information to determine whether it was directly or indirectly related to the virus, or not. It can never be a perfect science, but knowledge is growing as the data on how the virus operates becomes more plentiful and shared between doctors and researchers. The myth that hospitals get more money for covid deaths is a false one, the 20% medicare surchage is tied to admission and unrelated to outcome, and was designed to cover the added costs of needing to isolate covid patients, need for extra ppe & training, etc.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: sudly]
#26931570 - 09/12/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Can you screenshot the numbers or graphs? That site is troublesome to use.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: feevers]
#26931580 - 09/12/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The number of people dying exactly during the 7-14 day (avg) that a deadly pandemic virus is detectable in their system, but their death had nothing to do with said pandemic virus, would be so rare as to not alter the stats on any significant or even noticeable level nationally/globally. Even if it happened 1% of the time
Not an exact science, so what information are you using to determine that the number of deaths with covid present but not attributable to covid is under 1%?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26931638 - 09/12/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
The number of people dying exactly during the 7-14 day (avg) that a deadly pandemic virus is detectable in their system, but their death had nothing to do with said pandemic virus, would be so rare as to not alter the stats on any significant or even noticeable level nationally/globally. Even if it happened 1% of the time
Not an exact science, so what information are you using to determine that the number of deaths with covid present but not attributable to covid is under 1%?
All cause mortality rates, statistical comparisons between average life expectancy of major diseases post-diagnosis compared to 7-14 days of covid infection, reports from hospital workers who are seeing the deaths first hand, with the same patterns over and over.
Unless you're purposefully trying to be biased, all it takes is one second of critical thinking to realize that something so statistically unlikely is not occuring in anywhere close to 1 out of every 100 deaths.
The deaths are vastly undercounted, as has been reported by the left,right and center since the early days. I'll quote a post I made back May. The deadly virus is simply doing what deadly viruses do, and being deadly. There's a lot to debate about the virus and the handling of it, but the "death count is inflated" conspiracy has been beyond debunked at this point.
Quote:
From the CDC yesterday:
Quote:
Counting only confirmed or probable COVID-19–associated deaths, however, likely underestimates the number of deaths attributable to the pandemic. The counting of confirmed and probable COVID-19–associated deaths might not include deaths among persons with SARS-CoV-2 infection who did not access diagnostic testing, tested falsely negative, or became infected after testing negative, died outside of a health care setting, or for whom COVID-19 was falsely not suspected by a health care provider as a cause of death. The counting of confirmed and probable COVID-19–associated deaths also does not include deaths that are indirectly associated with, but caused by, SARS-CoV-2 infection
Quote:
(In NY)During March 11–May 2, 2020, a total of 32,107 deaths were reported to DOHMH; of these deaths, 24,172 (95% confidence interval = 22,980–25,364) were found to be in excess of the seasonal expected baseline. Included in the 24,172 deaths were 13,831 (57%) laboratory-confirmed COVID-19–associated deaths and 5,048 (21%) probable COVID-19–associated deaths, leaving 5,293 (22%) excess deaths that were not identified as either laboratory-confirmed or probable COVID-19–associated deaths.
CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e5.htm
NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html
World Economics: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/covid-19-death-toll-misleading-all-cause-mortality-excess-deaths-pandemic/
Oh look, even Fox News: https://www.foxnews.com/science/more-than-15000-excess-deaths-linked-to-coronavirus-in-us
“I don’t know the exact percent that it’s higher, but certainly, it’s higher.” -Fauci today


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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: feevers]
#26931719 - 09/12/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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By my thinking, admittance for a morbidity does come with a chance of death, and while covid does increase that chance it's not unreasonable to suspect more than 1% of them who tested positive would have died anyway. But I haven't suggested a conspiracy, nor do I have a ballpark figure. That's why I asked. There are other considerations, false positives vs false negatives and the number of cycles used in PCR tests that may conflate the case numbers... but I can accept looking at the excess deaths chart that covid does kill a lot of people. That has never been in question. The question is whether the long term effects of the cure will save lives, how many, and at what cost.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26932073 - 09/12/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Anyone keep track of the numbers at the arcgis website?
France for instance, was reporting 500 - 1000 deaths per day during the first wave. They are reporting a second wave. The number of daily infections is now slightly higher than the first wave, about 5000 cases per day. Reported daily deaths averages about 10.
The reported death rate is now 100 times less than the first wave. It was being reported at 10%. Now it's .1 percent.
Anyone think that's peculiar?
Skepticism - The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
The last time I saw my doctor she said it was becoming less virulent.
By a factor of 100?
Italy first wave peaked at 1000 deaths per day and slightly over 6000 infections per day. Now they're at 2000 cases per day and basically zero deaths. Most European countries are experiencing the same numbers. A study in Holland suggests the death rate for those under 50 is 1-10,000
It's peculiar!
Everything changes. Many events & things change in unexplained waves. Conclusions drawn from a small sample (time wise or number wise, etc. or both) are often not very accurate.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-casualties/frances-daily-covid-19-cases-pass-10000-for-first-time-idUSKBN2630XZ?il=0
"France's daily COVID-19 cases pass 10,000 for first time
World News September 12, 202012:11 PMUpdated 3 hours ago
By Reuters Staff
2 Min Read FILE PHOTO: A medical worker, wearing protective suit and face mask, administers a nasal swab to a patient in a testing site for coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in Nice, France, September 7, 2020. The sign reads "symptomatic people". REUTERS/Eric Gaillard
PARIS (Reuters) - France has had 10,561 new confirmed COVID-19 cases in the past 24 hours, health authorities said on Saturday, a new daily record as the number topped 10,000 for the first time.
The latest daily count, surpassing the previous record of 9,843 new infections reported on Thursday, highlights a resurgence of the disease in France.
The rise led the government to outline additional measures on Friday to avert a return to the general lockdown put in place earlier in the year. Prime Minister Jean Castex promised steps to speed up tests and toughen local measures in high-infection zones.
In its daily update, the French health ministry also reported that 772 clusters were being investigated, an increase of 86 in the past 24 hours.
Over the past week, there had been 2,432 arrivals in hospital for COVID-19, including 417 entries into intensive care units, the ministry said.
The death toll since the start of the COVID-19 outbreak this year in French hospitals and nursing homes has reached 30,910, with 17 deaths recorded in the past 24 hours, it added.
Reporting by Gus Trompiz; Editing by Pravin Char"
Edited by laughingdog (09/12/20 04:28 PM)
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
#26933058 - 09/13/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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left wing is like letting you stay in a room and letting you have food and drink
right wing is like
closing the door and not letting you get out
so how does it vote for left
what understanding should it have
and what understanding should people that vote right have
obviously we are right
this should be discussed like we should get together and share our ideas and discuss
and get proof
somewhere in the matrix of the ideas and understandings there must be a facit a = vote left
but how do we prove it or like give them the proof offer them the proof
Im sure smart men can win the game of chess and provide a list of proofs or arguments
you know what I mean?
it's like saying yellow is better than green but I don't know how to prove it and show it to them
currently or a short term it's like if trump continues it will be like there will be 3 or 5 dark spirits in every room
and maybe cold and dark
in 3 years...
long term death
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando]
#26933112 - 09/13/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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The people who oppose you claim to have alternative truths, in which they treasure facts that are impossible for us to see as anything other than propaganda, but which erase their views of the truths we try to share.
however, sharing food and shelter is a great way to bring people around.
who can remain impervious to compassion, hospitality, intelligence, art, peace and health.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26933252 - 09/13/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Forcing people to share is not the same as being generous. Some people don't want to share. What of them, and personal liberty? And those who do want to share, what of their personal liberty? It's not as simple as you would like it to be.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26933299 - 09/13/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I never suggested that you force people to share, that's ridiculous.
I am talking about the practice of philoxenia
the link may make you want to by plane tickets but don't. it is not time yet to be travelling for fun or enlightenment.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26933468 - 09/13/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I never suggested that you force people to share, ...
It did seem a strange jump
then again your post also seemed like a non sequitur
perhaps the topic has simply run out of steam?
The virus has come back to France with a vengeance;
And regardless of all our opinions some schools will reopen;
and there will be a real world test of opening.
The extent of damage to the economy is unknown, but one scenario
is that only if we get a lot more damage, will the biosphere be saved
from human follies and their results. The California fires being the latest disaster.
This is probably the view of the uni-bomber, and perhaps unfortunately not without
some merit.
Edited by laughingdog (09/13/20 01:35 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26933562 - 09/13/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I never suggested that you force people to share, that's ridiculous.
A good percentage of the people don't seem to think so, and it is a common practice. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and it's not a voluntary program.
Being generous is fine, but I thought we were talking about left/right, which is government. The government cannot engage in philoxenia because they have no money of their own. And the more they take the less the individual has a choice to be generous as a matter of free will.
I'm not sure why you took exception to my reply unless by left wing and right wing you guys are talking about individual behavior.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
#26933617 - 09/13/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: is that only if we get a lot more damage, will the biosphere be saved
I'm not sure continued economic damage will result in saving the biosphere. It will to some degree halt the progress of science, and that's bad. More money than every is being put into fusion research. If that halts, our prospects for a truly clean and practically unlimited energy source is gone.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26934835 - 09/14/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I never suggested that you force people to share, that's ridiculous.
A good percentage of the people don't seem to think so, and it is a common practice. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and it's not a voluntary program.
Being generous is fine, but I thought we were talking about left/right, which is government. The government cannot engage in philoxenia because they have no money of their own. And the more they take the less the individual has a choice to be generous as a matter of free will.
I'm not sure why you took exception to my reply unless by left wing and right wing you guys are talking about individual behavior.
Certainly the government must compensate for the natural and social inadequacies of this existence. If force is required then so be it. What is the worse crime, to force sharing and generosity or to refuse to share when the gifts could be much helpful?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26935118 - 09/14/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Certainly the government must compensate for the natural and social inadequacies of this existence. If force is required then so be it. What is the worse crime, to force sharing and generosity or to refuse to share when the gifts could be much helpful?
I think it depends on the clime. But the bigger point is that if we're down to deciding what is the worse crime, then we're just talking about crime. It's necessary as a practical matter but because there is crime involve it never lasts.
One can debate the definition of crime, but for me it's a matter of liberty and what degree a person is able to decide for themselves how their labor and effort is put to use.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26935137 - 09/14/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry, I didn't mean crime in the literal sense. Simply, what is the less savory movement?
"it's a matter of liberty and what degree a person is able to decide for themselves how their labor and effort is put to use."
I just wonder fundamentally what gives you the green light to believe this? An individual's liberty being the highest value. Why not the well being of the collective? Certainly, an individual's liberty is directly related to the collective's well being.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26935174 - 09/14/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think you can red light or green light belief. instead the conditioning starts young and weaves through everything you know as you grow up; people cannot help what they believe, but if they are interested they keep on learning.
this is a problem when it comes to voting for governments. hence propaganda.
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26935246 - 09/14/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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People change beliefs all the time. Usually it's due to a conscious experience. 
A 29 year old probably not though. They are probably dependent on conditioning.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26935285 - 09/14/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Sorry, I didn't mean crime in the literal sense. Simply, what is the less savory movement?
I understand but the principle is the same. Something may be more savory than another but we're still talking about two things that are not wholly savory.
"it's a matter of liberty and what degree a person is able to decide for themselves how their labor and effort is put to use."
I just wonder fundamentally what gives you the green light to believe this? An individual's liberty being the highest value. Why not the well being of the collective? Certainly, an individual's liberty is directly related to the collective's well being.
It is a matter of personal opinion isn't it? The catch is that when you decide it's not the highest value, you are inherently using force to cause the individual to conform to someone else's will. Maybe it's not a matter of stinginess but rather of how effort is spent along with efficiency of government vs a more anarchistic system. Or maybe it is a matter of stinginess. There is friction either way. This is a problem.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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