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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] 1
#26927698 - 09/10/20 06:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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My brother who got corona in February, got it from a student in university, and he was in a vulnerable category. 70+ some diabetes, and low stamina.
you cannot edit history in order to prove you are right. there were never enough good n-95 masks and their acceptance in culture has been too slow.
lockdown was the only approach, and remains the only thing that will keep numbers down until the landscape changes, or someone travels through time and changes the past.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26928036 - 09/10/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lockdown seemed reasonable in March. The system was not responsive, and is still not.
We have differences of opinion, and that's cool.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26928110 - 09/10/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Citys are going on lock down. Unemployment rising. Stocks diving. Airlines grounding. Events canceled.
And yet, I've seen only one person wearing a mask, and no one wearing gloves. I'm not sure if the population is taking this seriously or not. It's like a game to see who can horde the most toilet paper.
So which is worse?
this thread started a long time ago. (Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease + #26549557 - 03/21/20 09:21 PM (5 months, 17 days ago)
covid has affected both the economy and caused deaths
there remain unanswered questions
the rate of infection/spread and deaths varies with unexplained waves
and with explained gatherings of religions, motorcyclists, beach goers, and partiers & bar users.
I have provided links that connect to reliable sources and updates, in a fairly recent post. This info includes a world map, and world & US info. Here it is again
podcasts weekly from Director (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy) Michael Osterholm, PhD, MPH, https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars
John Campbell retired Nurse Teacher and A and E nurse based in England. https://www.youtube.com/c/Campbellteaching/videos
world covid map https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1IP5HwHN76r3aDtsAkAZEQGc6INGCs_iVXv2_In4K0d87olzJCcp8LXEk#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Now it seems to me what does make sense, for me, is not to argue opinion in public in hopes of scoring some sort of temporary "points", but rather to take individual responsibility which may involve the following sorts of serious legal considerations, (as well as the usual common sense measures which I will not mention):
Do I have dependents? Do I have a will? Do I have good health insurance? Have I created a durable power of attorney & selected a person who has agreed to perform this function if necessary? If wealthy enough to warrant this step, and one has family does one have life insurance?
Do to other health issues, I took those of these steps that make sense for my situation some years ago. Seems to me dealing with such responsibilities, may have a 'grounding' effect for some. This does not mean that I handle everything responsibly and promptly, (far from it unfortunately), but it probably does lighten the load.
To paraphrase Ajahn Chah: " the one thing that is certain, is that nothing is certain".
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26928908 - 09/10/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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And another thing, this thread being a mess isn't a bad thing. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Heated debate is part of the reason I post here. I'm sure you remember how things were here 8-10 years ago. I was new and this forum seemed like a mad house. It was fabulous!
I got my feelings hurt a few times but I learned that personal bias is an insidious thing that's sometimes only apparent when it's expressed and disagreed with. I like discovering I'm wrong even in the face of discomfort. I've remarked several times over the years that it's amazing how rare is is to see concession in debate but such public displays aren't necessary. It's all food for thought and we're free to make up or change our minds at leisure.
This whole concept of needing to be in agreement even in serious matters like this one is not healthy especially here on a debate oriented forum. The day that aspect of this forum is written out is the day I will begin to wonder whether there's any value posting here.
I don't like holding beliefs. I do like entertaining them. Scrutinizing them. If someone holds a conspiracy theory I don't dismiss it out of hand. Sometimes the truth is more gray than black or white. People do like to make sure a tragedy doesn't go to waste, and if there is political value in tragedy it will be used to play politics. People die. The best decisions don't get made. Polarization and confirmation bias are among the tools of the powerful and influential.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26929179 - 09/10/20 10:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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the latest from Dr. Fauci what we have learned that is new & still don't know article has a stupid title--just ignore it https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dr-fauci-just-said-youll-203948720.html
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] 1
#26929971 - 09/11/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I read a study a few weeks ago about the logic behind wearing masks, even quite imperfect ones. No, at a fine level most of them do not have the capability of stopping COVID particles from getting through. BUT, what does happen is that much less of one's breath comes through the front of the mask, making the amount, if one is positive, of virus significantly less.
This is coupled with the fact that the amount of virus one comes into contact with is an important variable. If one inhales a small amount, their infection is likely to be significantly less severe than someone who got a big dose.
So mask wearing is not just some comforting illusion. Was this study missing something?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26930000 - 09/11/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26930418 - 09/11/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I read a study a few weeks ago about the logic behind wearing masks, even quite imperfect ones. No, at a fine level most of them do not have the capability of stopping COVID particles from getting through. BUT, what does happen is that much less of one's breath comes through the front of the mask, making the amount, if one is positive, of virus significantly less.
This is coupled with the fact that the amount of virus one comes into contact with is an important variable. If one inhales a small amount, their infection is likely to be significantly less severe than someone who got a big dose.
So mask wearing is not just some comforting illusion. Was this study missing something?
The false sense of security. Sure it can be better than nothing but people will congregate more, stand closer, linger longer, increasing the viral load. And I question how much difference it makes when they're not worn or can't be worn properly. Most of that breath comes out the side or by the nose. Is that really significantly better than no mask? And restaurants and bars are mostly open now. The young kids don't give a fuck about masks. I know someone who works for a keg beer distributor. It's full steam ahead.
If a person doesn't want to contract covid... wear an N95 mask. Everyone else should feel free to wear or not wear. Let it run it's course.
Some people already have breathing difficulties. They should be protected. They shouldn't have to go out in public. Their care workers should be wearing N95 masks.
And when it comes to that, as I mentioned earlier, it's been over 6 months. The USA built a war machine to dominate Germany in a matter of a couple years. But in 6 months the only N95 masks to be found for the public are on ebay at a 250-300% markup. In this sense I do blame Trump, and Fauci. Fauci should have never lied to the public early on and said the general public has no need for them, and in the same breath state that they should be saved for first responders. He should have been honest and worked with the Trump admin to get that war machine going. The president should have mandated that companies and factories that could produce them do. He should have worked with congress to insure funds were available to help those companies get it done. And yet it's China who came through. They are flooding the country with hundreds of millions of KN95 masks. With head loops instead of ear loops they would be a reasonable alternative (after being rated by someone other than the Chinese as 95 material). And I can't help but wonder, after having put one on my head and noticing the gaping gaps whether they collectively decided to export crappy masks on purpose.
So yea, they can/do offer some protection, but as far as being an effective way of forcing the virus to peter out, not by a long shot. All it does is string it out over a longer period while minimizing the importance of providing real protection to those who are most vulnerable, along with stringing out the business closures and every other negative economic effect. I read a banking planning document recently regarding covid relief. It's operational window is 5 years. That's what they're expecting now.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26930520 - 09/11/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting thoughts. I find them reasonable and accurate. I agree that masks will not be responsible for dealing with or changing the course of the virus in the long term, but I do wear one when I go out just cause.
I saw just today that people who eat out at restaurants are twice as likely to contract the virus as those who do not. Seems logical.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26930543 - 09/11/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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. I think you are right about a lot of this, Rahz. Perhaps it is also well to realize the president has screwed just about everything up from day 1, beyond belief. . And the US public is also very dedicated to being stupid: (continuing an interest in football after it has been proved to cause brain damage, after years of mild concussions and jarring - not just professional football - but at ivy league schools--supposedly "institutions of 'higher' learning" - is just one example of many - but perhaps the most literal example of dumbing down)
. So a partial benefit is supposed to be what they call "flattening the curve" so that hospitals don't get overwhelmed, during the long haul to "herd immunity".
. Meanwhile the big picture is that as long as there are factory farms, there will be future pandemics. (Bush meat (used by poor workers that clear rain forest in Africa and Brazil) and zoonotic transmission in Chinese "wet markets", are also continuing breeding grounds for viral evolution and transmission). . So there will be repeats and they will be handled just as badly--how do I know this? Because I see how Global Warming is being avoided, as a problem while first Australia and now California, Oregon, and Washington among other places burn. These fires have dimensions not seen in living memory. . The melting glaciers are another story. (Acidification of the oceans, continuing extinctions, water shortages, plastic nano-particles everywhere, prescritption drugs showing up in fish, insane health insurance, decaying infrastructure of all mega cities, ( what happens when all the concrete in skyscrapers begins to deteriorate at once? - which it must at some point) and chemical pollution are just a few of the other problems that add up to something with so many interactive effects, that simple solutions are no longer possible.
So I am grateful to you, Rahz, for the N95 mask info, but do not think it matters much to the long term big picture what might have been done, for the economy. Of course many have been devastated, but DT's other policies have been cruel & inhuman from the get go. And hospitals were overwhelmed in Spain & Italy & who knows where else. So where exactly the balance lies seems unclear. We will see what happens with some schools reopening. And poorer ventilation with winter weather.
Perhaps old age, causes me to take a mellower view of what seems to be the decline of everything? But the number of fronts on which the quality of life, is being attacked, for all the larger life forms, has lead many to question whether or not the tipping point was passed some decades ago.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
#26930653 - 09/11/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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something i've wondered about the covid situation is, if people were not told that it existed, would they even know that it existed?
it was handed so tidly in a box.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Here's some interesting food for thought.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/thailand/
Thailand covid deaths so far this year: 58
https://thethaiger.com/news/national/suicides-spike-during-pandemic-police-ask-social-media-influencers-for-help
Thailand suicides so far this year: 2551, up 459 more than this time last year.
So it's not clear that the cure has saved lives.
Quote:
...but do not think it matters much to the long term big picture what might have been done, for the economy.
I don't disagree with your big picture, but I do take issue with some of the details. Those details are issues for another thread. But it happens in cycles. There will probably be a world war eventually. It will take more lives than the last one, which took more lives than the last one, which took more lives... etc.
But I find optimism in the fact that humans have found ways to adapt, and in the idea that science isn't inherently dirty. Dirtiness is inefficiency. Ultimately, if we don't kill ourselves first, science will be the solution rather than the problem. How humans put science to use is another matter. We're a mixture of selfishness and empathy. This averages out to less than empathy but that is not a terrible thing. I think the rise of the internet has amplified our fears and makes us more neurotic, but it also casts a light on things that were previously occurring but in darkness.
There is hope! ... and I take it with a grain of salt. I consider it my duty to be a better person, not carry the weight of the world on my shoulders. I've got enough to deal with already. So whether there be hope or not, raise a glass to the good feelings, to the kindness that has been shown, and to the kindness one can show. And be ready to call it a day because nothing lasts forever. 
I'm getting old too.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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It may be a philosophical fallacy to consider the source of your information, but the information in your video is not real data, it is off the cuff numbers from a youtuber.
I see no reason to consider it other than noise in our new democracy of shared media sourcing. One must expect the unofficially crappy along with the officially crappy sources of news.
I am glad that anyone can start their own channel, here is a video of the same guy 'splaining what it is like to be censored on youtube, as I am sure he crossed the line several times. Fallacy or not, I would wonder what is going on.
right wing propaganda note the community guidelines being crossed out and called communism guidelines. you just found another fake news channel.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Loc: attending Snake Church
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: sudly] 1
#26931276 - 09/12/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Where's the link to a reported death rate 100x less?
There isn't one.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#26931286 - 09/12/20 06:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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yes it is embarrassing and like erroneous and like candy abuse
left wing is existence
nature to stone
right wing is bomb
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26931367 - 09/12/20 08:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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if someone has advanced heart disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune dysfunction, respiratory disease or a combination of them and others, how would it ultimately be determined that their death was actually from covid?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Brian Jones]
#26931395 - 09/12/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
sudly said: Where's the link to a reported death rate 100x less?
There isn't one.
laughingdog linked to it, but I'll post it again for you.
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
France specifically, but all European countries have experienced dramatic decreases in death/case ratio. Even the US has experience a notable drop. More daily cases (at one point more than double) than the first peak but fatalities have dropped to less than half of the first peak. That's 4x fewer deaths, or a 75% drop in fatalities.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#26931405 - 09/12/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: yes it is embarrassing and like erroneous and like candy abuse
left wing is existence
nature to stone
right wing is bomb
Left wing is the progressive stance in a cycle of control and enslavement. Right wing is the regressive stance in a cycle of control and enslavement. The problem is that people don't want to cooperate to the degree that would allow for the absence of government. Do you try to force people to be fair, or give the people the opportunity to be fair without coercion? Neither way works. There is a lesser evil that changes and results in a cycle of moving from one lesser evil to the next.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26931465 - 09/12/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have ma rights !
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26931480 - 09/12/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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No but seriously, I agree with your takes Rahz.
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