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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando]
#26920633 - 09/06/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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sometimes it's hard to find meaningful meaning, but always a surprise.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26920649 - 09/06/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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what it means
what you mean to it
what your life means
and there are many fields and qualities
yoga garden going
depends on your identity and action
the more self improvement etc. and the better you do
the better what happens means to it
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando]
#26920890 - 09/06/20 10:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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ah, yes it's like the mathematics and engineering of life
there is a relationship, and a sense of balance in the middle way.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26921093 - 09/06/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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yes its not just not doing drugs and working all the time
or almost
the mental programming and way of being like relating to it
as something that matters
in a making it way
assists ones life also in terms of the above
middle way yes eightfold path
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando]
#26921098 - 09/06/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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and how does one attain it
I have not read buddha say this
but working almost all the time
and moderation
and being kind and honest
seem the most effective for this
reading and watching buddhism is good of course
understanding and meditating and making an effor very frecuently and trying

-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Ferdinando]
#26924270 - 09/08/20 08:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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https://nypost.com/2020/09/06/its-now-looking-like-the-lockdowns-may-have-been-a-huge-mistake/
There will be more of this, especially considering the economic damage isn't done and that shut downs are being extended.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26924283 - 09/08/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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not all media sources are reliable: here are the headlines from your chosen tabloid:
Quote:
EXCLUSIVE ‘Still very angry’: MLB announcer’s complicated redemption after gay slur
Biden pulls an about-face on national mask mandate
Army veteran kills himself in horrifying Facebook livestream
Here's how much Pelosi salon owner made in GoFundMe campaign
Trump trashes Cuomo and de Blasio, saying they're the core of Big Apple’s problems
Teyana Taylor gives birth in bathroom — again
Jersey gore: Two in custody after Labor Day beach fight leads to stabbing
so yeah, you can say anything nowadays anywhere, but it does not make it true.
edit: or newsworthy
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Edited by redgreenvines (09/08/20 09:39 AM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26924334 - 09/08/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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and none of it is worth our time reading
a source like this might be more fun
https://www.sciencedaily.com/news/mind_brain/psychedelic_drugs/
Edited by laughingdog (09/08/20 09:10 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
#26924400 - 09/08/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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science daily is interesting but it presents many stories that are incremental as if they were pivotally important which is a taint from self promotion and sensational marketing.
good info does not need an emotional kick.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26924811 - 09/08/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: not all media sources are reliable: here are the headlines from your chosen tabloid:
Quote:
EXCLUSIVE ‘Still very angry’: MLB announcer’s complicated redemption after gay slur
Biden pulls an about-face on national mask mandate
Army veteran kills himself in horrifying Facebook livestream
Here's how much Pelosi salon owner made in GoFundMe campaign
Trump trashes Cuomo and de Blasio, saying they're the core of Big Apple’s problems
Teyana Taylor gives birth in bathroom — again
Jersey gore: Two in custody after Labor Day beach fight leads to stabbing
so yeah, you can say anything nowadays anywhere, but it does not make it true.
edit: or newsworthy
Logical fallacy much? As long as you've been here, you should know better.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26924920 - 09/08/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Teyana Taylor gives birth in bathroom — again
this is not the kind of critical thinking we need, and I did look at your article, and while the title suggests a reversal, the content does not suggest reversal but it does suggest a sane approach of suggesting everyone wear masks rather than legislating and policing voluntary compliance.
Short term legislation is possible but not exactly the right message during the campaign.
this is the time when we measure smiles and duplicity, and the headlined reversal is nowhere near the duplicity of everything the opponents are doing in their campaign.
ya, I read about the fallacies, and not to judge the idea from the source, but the tabloids are not lined up to present arguments in a discussion here, they are out to compete with racy headlines.
so do wear your mask and do wash your hands and do vote when the time comes.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26925182 - 09/08/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I read about the fallacies, and not to judge the idea from the source, but
But, but, but. You're trying to justify poor debate. I'm sure it's because you think this is too important, but that's actually a reason to debate well. So, the gist of my point, that's the second article I've found recently questioning the severity of response. In March and April no publication would have printed something like that. There will be more, and as the economy worsens more people will begin to agree with the sentiment.
You replied that not all media sources are reliable rather than addressing the trend I predict or rebutting the content of the article. Do you disagree with the statistics presented? Do you disagree with the reasoning for why this response was so different? I think it makes perfect sense. I remember when the whole "keep the children safe at any cost" thing started. The monkey barrel was removed from the park. Lawn darts were dangerous and need to be banned! Do you disagree that the lockdowns have prevented cancer screenings, heart-attack treatment and substance-abuse counseling? "Attempts to reduce one risk may increase others."
And going forward, it's going to get talked about. But there will be people *ahem* who suggest that doing so is wrong and shameful, and that they should just shut up and wear their mask, like it's an order.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26925739 - 09/09/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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can you provide the statistics here for which you want me to consider aggreance of debate.
I think referring elsewhere for the crux of your point forms too loose a link to the matter and to the tenor of your point.
I guess I probably never got your point because you sent me out of the room to find it.
what is your point, is it also laughingdog's point?
I am not intentionally breaking rules of debate, but this thread is becoming a mess.
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Last seen: 1 hour, 59 minutes
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26925916 - 09/09/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well that's just it isn't it? I think maybe the point is that this whole thing is a mess. Competing influences have really done something special here
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle] 1
#26926045 - 09/09/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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you mean a reflection of a mess is a mess - or a ssem
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26926583 - 09/09/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: can you provide the statistics here for which you want me to consider aggreance of debate.
I think referring elsewhere for the crux of your point forms too loose a link to the matter and to the tenor of your point.
I guess I probably never got your point because you sent me out of the room to find it.
what is your point, is it also laughingdog's point?
I am not intentionally breaking rules of debate, but this thread is becoming a mess.
Referring elsewhere is necessary to make my point. Read just the link, that's the point, that more publications are starting to question the wisdom of the response. If you want to take issue with the source, that's a slightly different matter and I will suggest you critique the article itself, rather than the publisher. Otherwise it is a logical fallacy. It's not a long article and the statistics are right there, that per capita this pandemic hasn't been notably worse than others and that the shutdown is bound to cause additional deaths.
And Kickle has the right idea. Panic, partisanship, big business interests, etc. has made it all a mess. And there's confirmation bias at work influencing the public's perception going forward, but that's not going to last forever I suspect.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26926678 - 09/09/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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so, I am going back to the link, to which you refuse to return, or are too lazy, and I intend to find the stats which did not impress me earlier enough to remember if I had even seen them.
... I located what you might consider as stats Quote:
As I’ve noted, the 1957-58 Asian flu killed between 70,000 and 116,000 Americans, between 0.04 percent and 0.07 percent of the nation’s population. The 1968-70 Hong Kong flu killed about 100,000, 0.05 percent of the population.
The US coronavirus death toll of 186,000 is 0.055 percent of the current population. It will go higher, but it’s about the same magnitude as those two flus, and it has been less deadly to those under 65 than the flus were.
I do not find the message a complete one but it could be twisted to appear that the current lockdowns are unnecessary.
What this choice tidbit of selected data misses is the virulence or spread potential in COVID compared to Asian Flu 60+ years ago.
It also misses the fact that treatment has been very difficult to achieve, since this new one is an unexpected kind of blood disease unlike the Asian Flu. Our science and medical teams have been going at this steadily for 8 months after being at first taken aback by how strange the new disease is and how infectious it is. "Experts note that COVID-19 has a higher hospitalization rate, as well as a higher death rate than the flu. It’s also more infectious".
More comparisons of Asian Flu can be made - it is significantly different from COVID. However I do not see any good clear comparative analyses which include all the factors AND solid numbers which I assume is because it is still a cloud upon everything eg.
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/2020/03/17/heres-how-coronavirus-compares-to-past-pandemics/
https://www.who.int/westernpacific/news/q-a-detail/q-a-similarities-and-differences-covid-19-and-influenza
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu
you should note that where people have gathered recently without masks and social distancing, there have been significant new outbreaks.
very likely the fact that previous pandemics have mostly been flu or swine flu, immunologists presume that people accumulate immunity and may fight new variations using the same antibody conferred immunity from earlier infections. COVID is not like the flu so those previously grown antibodies don't help anyone.
do you really think that the lockdowns have been for nothing?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26926775 - 09/09/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's not all or nothing, but yes I've thought for a while now that they were ill conceived. Especially when we know the demographics, but the massive confirmation bias modern media has created is hard to get past. It wasn't long into the pandemic that it was apparent that a majority of victims were aged. Therefore a majority of victims aren't in the workforce, nor in school. And yet the media sought out instances of kids dying to stoke the fire of panic.
If care workers wore (N95) masks around the old and compromised, that would be reasonable. If the old were encouraged to wear (N95) masks out in public, that would be reasonable. Let everyone else go about their business. Let it run it's course. And of course, if someone want's to wear a mask that's fine but the continued mandates for everyone are ridiculous. A woman in Spain was arrested recently for surfing while infected! 18,000 British citizens have been fined for incorrect behavior. People are getting shamed in public for not wearing a mask that provides little protection.
It's been 6 months, and N95s aren't easily available. They can be found for a 250-300% markup but that's only because a lot of people don't really care. And China is pumping out tens of millions of KN95 masks with crappy ear loops and bad fit for sale to Americans in every hardware store and convenient store. The same material as N95 but not the same protection. A different strategy with less mask use, targeted for those that actually need them would have saved many lives and trillions of dollars.
The cure sucks.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
#26926899 - 09/09/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you are stuck on the old profile of this pandemic. now a preponderance of new cases is actually in the 20-40 yrs old range. At least here in Canada - parties, beaches, and drinking at bars without any caution cause upticks in new cases. Schools opened today and mostly the desks had not been moved. I think that was not smart. let's see the counts in 2 weeks. Several friends of mine are teachers and they are AFRAID.
So yes the original symptomatics were more aged, but sequestering all the virus using your plan (I am glad you were not consulting with National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases) would not be achieved with n95's deployed where the aged were sick.
Those older people got the virus mostly from asymptomatic younger relatives and workers at care facilities.
any way you slice it. the lock down was necessary to slow the people - to prevent them from exchanging virus - and the economy follows that kind of thing. Where people cannot social distance or wont wear masks and wash hands the numbers of cases increase more quickly
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
#26926980 - 09/09/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're talking about infections. I'm talking about deaths. The PCR test are currently being ran for 50 cycles. It's been suggested that 20-30 cycles is sufficient to identify people who are a risk of spreading the disease. 20-30 cycles will still identify individuals who aren't contagious but will be. Running 50 cycles means people who aren't sick and may never be contagious or have symptoms are testing positive.
The profile hasn't changed. It's still the old and immune compromised who are dying.
Quote:
Those older people got the virus mostly from asymptomatic younger relatives and workers at care facilities.
That's an issue that is manageable, and I've been suggesting that should have been the core of the response. If that had been stressed, the importance of protecting the elderly over news and social media instead of telling everyone to panic and lock down, if N95s had been made available to care workers and the elderly, it would have been managed. All that money spent supporting the unemployed, and the employed! (I got a $1200 check) could have been used to protect the elderly with proper funding and education. But instead, we threw money all over the place and told everyone to wear cloth masks (after we told them not to) and little Timmy still infected Aunt Carol.
It's been a cluster fuck.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (09/09/20 07:25 PM)
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