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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845274 - 07/25/20 10:22 PM (20 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Not only factory farms then present a problem but also human congregations such as classrooms, and since we probably won't empty out cities I expect the advent of mutated viruses will be just another interesting article in the news for most folks. Like: Gee, Toronto got nuked, poor schmucks




.  there is a big difference between factory farms & cities & and the insides of buildings for people.
.    In factory farms there is no sunlight, and animals are confined with as little space as possible between them, by the millions, on top of their urine and feces, in air filled with throat burning ammonia, and they get no exercise.
.    In other words anyone eating meat, but not organically & pasture raised animals, is supporting torture, whether they know it or not, and just like industrial pollution shortening the lives of thousands of people with dangerous smog in many of the worlds big mega cities - it turns out there is a karmic and moral penalty to be paid for human cruelty.
.    To compare this to city life and classrooms is really just contributing to the denial and sugar coating of reality, that has caused much of human folly.
.    It is the conditions within wet markets in China, where animals are kept alive in small cages, with fowl, and mammal stacked one on top of another, to shit and pee on one another that fosters zoonotic virus evolution, as do the unhygienic conditions in factory farms, where people must also work!  Mammals (men) with pigs & birds. And in both cases both killing & butchering & blood spill, and urine spill and feces run off all occur in the same area. This fosters viral evolution and spread and zoonotic transfer between species in a way no city or classroom does.
.  Just like the climate change deniers, tobacco product manufacturers, & capitalists, everyone either wants to deny that there is a problem, or blame someone else. Perhaps there is a reason, not for Noah and the Ark, but for the repeated plagues of history, that has to do with both ecology and the unbelievable arrogance of so called civilized humans, especially in the way they relate to nature. It appears humans who think they are so much cleverer than everything else may not get the last laugh after all.

As some others agree:

http://energyskeptic.com/2020/paul-chefurka-more-thoughts-on-sustainability/


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/25/20 10:56 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26845319 - 07/25/20 11:07 PM (20 days, 8 hours ago)

Correct me where I'm in error, but masks mainly restrict the spread from infected persons. Uninfected people require goggles that prevent entry of the virus thru the mucus membrane of the eyes.

Do you think the authorities already have this in the works for our protection?


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845336 - 07/25/20 11:20 PM (20 days, 8 hours ago)

Yeah masks are to help minimize the risk you pose to others.  They also offer you a bit of protection from sick people - say, more so than if you wore nothing - but I don’t know by how much.  Probably about as much as your pants mask the smell of a fart to those around you.
  So that just leaves the eyes.  I try and remember to wear glasses or sunglasses on riskier outings.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26845378 - 07/26/20 12:37 AM (20 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


the insurers will dictate our lives by policy terms.




Here's a low cost option for the insurance litigators.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845566 - 07/26/20 06:23 AM (20 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Correct me where I'm in error, but masks mainly restrict the spread from infected persons. Uninfected people require goggles that prevent entry of the virus thru the mucus membrane of the eyes.

Do you think the authorities already have this in the works for our protection?



the mask prevents an infected person spreading aerosol
the mask ALSO prevents a non-infected person from touching their face (self infecting) after accidental manual contact with a surface that may have recently been exposed to viral aerosols.
i.e. the mask prevents infection from tainted surfaces to finger to nose or mouth or eye when you are out in the uncontrolled world. (this is huge - virus survives on shiny surfaces that may remain moist for days, the virus survives much more briefly on surfaces which are dry like paper towel or cotton. the lack of microscopic water causes the viral protein coat of the virus to break deactivating the virus in a few minutes.

It cannot last long on absorbent surfaces (goes dry and disassembles)
Lasts long on smooth surfaces up to 72 hours because they do not absorb water and virus stays hydrated.
ODDLY it only 4 hrs on copper because it oxidizes with water quickly – copper is an unusual metal with electrical and catalytic behaviors.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/9/3132/htm



slick surfaces allow moist virus to remain moist and infectious for days (eg metal plastic glass etc.)
dry absorbent surfaces destroy the virus in minutes to hours.
copper is unusual because of what it does to water at a molecular level - upsetting the integrity of viral protein coats.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26845721 - 07/26/20 08:52 AM (19 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

the mask prevents infection from tainted surfaces to finger to nose or mouth or eye when you are out in the uncontrolled world.




How a mask covering your nose and mouth prevents you from touching your eye escapes me.


Edited by Buster_Brown (07/26/20 08:55 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845889 - 07/26/20 10:40 AM (19 days, 20 hours ago)

Masks (cloth coverings and surgical masks) foster a false sense of security and can only make the pandemic worse. It's been almost 6 months and widespread availability of N95 hasn't happened for some reason.

Even if they were available, people would reuse them. They get old and the electrostatic properties that allow them to filter sub .3 micron particles is gone.

The reality is that unless everyone has a good supply of N95, fit them properly, keep them clean (but not wash them), switch them out after 8 hours of use, masks are all but pointless and won't slow down the spread of the disease.

---

As far as there being no cure, at the time this thread was made the "cure" mentioned was to shut down all non essential businesses and everyone go on lock down for 3 weeks. It did not work, so the cure was worse than the disease, or at least now we're stuck with the cure and the disease. It's insane to intentionally cripple economies due to a virus that kills less than 1 percent of those who contract it when doing so doesn't fix the problem.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #26845990 - 07/26/20 11:45 AM (19 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Masks (cloth coverings and surgical masks) foster a false sense of security and can only make the pandemic worse. ...



I am very disturbed by this erroneous take on the matter of face masks.

a. they reduce the aerosol emerging from your mouth and nose tremendously, from 6 feet to 6 cm. that stops the aerosol contagion by a huge number.
b. they block direct access to your face for touching purposes.

this means that you are much less likely to mindlessly touch your nose or mouth with an accidentally tainted finger or hand that touched a surface with virus on it.  I provided some indication of viability of virus on different surfaces above. Consider that carefully.

these actions may seem feeble to you and irksome, especially if you are not currently diseased.

if someone around you is encouraged to wear a mask because you do you have helped a great deal.

N-95 masks are good for filtering out virus in case you are in a very high infection zone like a hospital or dental treatment area. Otherwise, it is overkill.

not wearing a mask is plain stupid at this point in time and a terrible example for people who are having difficulty understanding biology and virology which is more than 95%. Get with it.

Note: eye touching should be prevented by the awareness that you are wearing a mask and why you are wearing a mask, but if you find you are still touching your eyes put on some glasses (sunglasses will make you look more cool).  Practice not touching your face until after you wash your hands if you have been out and about, the mask will help with this practice by imparting awareness (each time you complain to yourself about the mask it is awareness and we need more of that).


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26846037 - 07/26/20 12:23 PM (19 days, 19 hours ago)

I didn't suggest they have no effect at all. Certainly some type of covering will block some aerosols. However, they also offer a false sense of security. Surgical masks and most cloth masks will not form a seal. Being that they aren't going to be 100% effective even with droplets, and that their use will inhibit social distancing, whatever benefit they offer is neutralized.

Your perception that people will social distance in the same manner with a mask as without is mistaken. Your perception that a mask prevents eye touching, or that the average person will touch their face less in general is mistaken. People pull their mask down below their nose to breathe better. Pull it back up, back down, etc. And if their nose itches, they're going to scratch it. You give people a lot of credit, while also suggesting 95% of the population are too dumb to understand biology and virology.

N95 is only considered overkill because they're still in short supply. Let's be real about this. Beyond the fact that within the maintenance period the material can block out most viral particles, they're also semi-rigid and will be uncomfortable to pull down. They must have head loops rather than ear loops and are much more likely to form a proper seal.

At any rate, you can see if you look for the information that most countries are having a resurgence. Even those careful Europeans are letting their guard down, possibly because they're wearing masks.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineForrester
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846046 - 07/26/20 12:29 PM (19 days, 19 hours ago)

Most people around here think wearing the mask hanging from one ear is sufficient...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846088 - 07/26/20 12:57 PM (19 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I didn't suggest they have no effect at all. Certainly some type of covering will block some aerosols. However, they also offer a false sense of security. Surgical masks and most cloth masks will not form a seal. Being that they aren't going to be 100% effective even with droplets, and that their use will inhibit social distancing, whatever benefit they offer is neutralized.

Your perception that people will social distance in the same manner with a mask as without is mistaken. Your perception that a mask prevents eye touching, or that the average person will touch their face less in general is mistaken. People pull their mask down below their nose to breathe better. Pull it back up, back down, etc. And if their nose itches, they're going to scratch it. You give people a lot of credit, while also suggesting 95% of the population are too dumb to understand biology and virology.

N95 is only considered overkill because they're still in short supply. Let's be real about this. Beyond the fact that within the maintenance period the material can block out most viral particles, they're also semi-rigid and will be uncomfortable to pull down. They must have head loops rather than ear loops and are much more likely to form a proper seal.

At any rate, you can see if you look for the information that most countries are having a resurgence. Even those careful Europeans are letting their guard down, possibly because they're wearing masks.



social distancing is required if you do not have a mask, but it adds to safety if you do.
nothing has a complete seal except a space suit, hazmat is overkill for this pandemic, and n-95 is overkill too, most of which do not provide seal. clearly seal is not as important as aerosol reduction and reduced face touching - Unless you are a front line health worker.

Cities with this in force are doing better than cities without it.

as for false sense of security, yes,
we should not consider that face coverings endow special powers, it's dangerous to be human and we need to keep our wits about us.

false sense of security is a different issue - do not get it cross-wired with pandemic measures.  there is no security until it is over, and everyone is immunized, which will probably be never (antivaxxers flat earthers etc.), so keep your wits about you.

Euro resurgences are not from false sense of security - it is from bars and no masks at bars where people drink and forget to take care etc.

people want to play, it is not time yet for mating and dating at bars.


--------------------


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26846172 - 07/26/20 01:41 PM (19 days, 17 hours ago)

There's a difference between what's "required" and what's a good idea. Papers please?

The idea that only a space suit hazmat has a complete seal is complete nonsense. The idea that a mask that can actually filter out most virus sized particles is overkill is also nonsense, predicated on the idea that somehow it's impossible to provide them. If the USA can't get it done, China will be glad to sell them to us. Many people aren't going to wear them regardless.

Quote:

Cities with this in force are doing better than cities without it.




Citation? A Reuters poll suggests infection rates are similar between Republicans and Democrats. It was actually 10%R/14%D but being that there are various variables not accounted for it's reasonable to suggest they're similar.

Wearing masks will result in less social distancing. And lots of people are wearing masks... therefore it's okay to have a drink in public... see how that works? False sense of security. If you don't know the risk, and you don't want to get sick, a little overkill is a good idea, but not everyone is going to care, or think about it the same way.

Pandemic measures, to whatever extent they've been practiced are not practical over long periods. If/when there is a vaccine, you shouldn't get your hopes up too much. Just like antibodies don't last there's no guarantee a vaccine will either. They're already talking about booster shots and they haven't even produced a vaccine yet. Meanwhile, like most contagions that become widespread this virus will likely become more contagious and less deadly as time goes by. That's the natural/logical progression. These measures you're talking about simply string it out and whatever deaths it prevents are transferred to other forms of misery.

And again, who are you to say when it is or is not time for mating and dating? You sound just like the people you hate. If you don't want to get a girl pregnant, use proper protection. You can't force people to not practice the pull out method. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846411 - 07/26/20 04:19 PM (19 days, 15 hours ago)

It would seem mask wearing goes together with 'social' distancing and hand sanitizing.

And that going to the beach in crowds, or massive social protests of thousands, or riots, and going to bars, where one drink leads to another, all go together with ignoring  mask wearing, distancing and hand sanitizing.

Seems behaviors occur in constellations and are not isolated, and are furthermore affected by what others are observed to be doing.

It generally seems that countries where there is more compliance, with the 3 measures, mentioned in the first sentence, have had greater success in combating 'covid-19', than those areas, states, or countries that have poorer compliance and engage in the behaviors itemized in the 2nd paragraph.

Also Vitamin D reduces the severity of the symptoms if a person is affected, and smog and air pollution make the severity of the symptoms if a person is affected, worse. Then there are the factors of age and a whole list of 'co-morbities', like being fat. Then there is where you live: for example: in huge building that recycles air, or in a slum, or on a nice rural farm.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846412 - 07/26/20 04:22 PM (19 days, 15 hours ago)

so you are an anti-masker?
I have not previously conversed with one.
interesting.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26846464 - 07/26/20 05:09 PM (19 days, 14 hours ago)

I'm anti mask like I'm anti condoms that have holes poked in them.

I mask and wear N95s. I've been doing it since around the first of March. I don't rely on maskers to keep me healthy. I'm not concerned with whether others wear them or not. I'm not upset with people who don't.

N95 is getting easier to find in industries that use them. You can find them on Amazon but only for medical personnel. KN95 (courtesy of the Chinese) is a variant that supposedly uses the same filter material but doesn't have the same form requirements. These can be bought and custom fitted with some string and a few cents worth of extra elastic to form a better seal. I've played around with a few of them and would use them if I couldn't get N95. They are widely available. I've also played with MERV 16 material, and while it could be effective I don't have the skill or patience to work with it.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846484 - 07/26/20 05:22 PM (19 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I mask and wear N95s. I've been doing it since around the first of March. I don't rely on maskers to keep me healthy. I'm not concerned with whether others wear them or not. I'm not upset with people who don't.




Any concern about your eyes?


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26846613 - 07/26/20 07:04 PM (19 days, 12 hours ago)

I don't think it's a major vector without eye touching. Even then I don't suspect it's meaningful when compared to infection rates via the airway, otherwise we would be hearing about an uptick in pink-eye and the news would make a big deal about it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #26846776 - 07/26/20 08:22 PM (19 days, 11 hours ago)

you're doing great then, glad to hear you have a great air filter set up.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26847180 - 07/27/20 05:21 AM (19 days, 2 hours ago)

My glasses get steamed-up when I wear a mask. When the insurance co. requires full face masks for public transportation it would be nice to have a miniature fan and hepa filter installed to keep the visor clear.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26847243 - 07/27/20 06:53 AM (19 days, 45 minutes ago)

my mask has a wire which bends over my nose and usually that stops the fogging of glasses


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