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Offlinesaved7
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ancient Israel's national memory * 1
    #26547461 - 03/20/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

hope this could stay in here... it's not really a spiritual topic so much as a historical/cultural one??

my comments are after this excerpt

------------------------------------------------------
  "I’m going to prove that the miracles of the exodus happened.
  Some of you already believe as much. You picked up a volume on Jewish philosophy. Much more interesting if you believe the religion is true. But imagine this: trying to convince skeptics that the ten plagues, the splitting of the sea, and the revelation to the Israelites at Mount Sinai happened. That’s what I’m up to.
  You, dear skeptics, will think the proof the dumbest thing you’ve ever seen. You, dear believers, will too. At first. You’ll think I’m telling the skeptic to believe in miracles just because everyone else believes they happened. Or just because the Bible says they happened. Either way, pretty dumb. Did I miss the class on argumentum ad populum or petitio principii? I wouldn’t put such moves past me. I promise it’s not what I’m up to here.
  Strictly speaking, nothing outside mathematics and such like can be proved. We’re not speaking strictly. We’ll discover evidence. I hope you’ll be convincedby the end. Convincing a philosopher of anything is harder than splitting the sea. Certainly for me. Probably for God too. I should be satisfied if you come away thinking it all not the dumbest thing ever. Of course, I’ve lost half the audience already.  But for those willing to read on, I plead  for patience: get to the end before giving up on me.
  The Jewish tradition does not advertise much natural theology, though it’s not averse to it. There were medieval Jewish natural theologians: Saadya, Maimonides, Crescas, et al. But there’s nothing as impressive as suchas Thomas Aquinas or Richard Swinburne. The rabbis don’t care much for the business. They prefer to rely on testimony. A talkative lot. The Torah itself insists on testimony about themiracles of theexodus and revelation at Sinai. Try on Deuteronomy 4:32–43

For please ask . . .whether there has been anything like this great thing or heard like it: Hasa nation heardthe voice of God speaking fromthemidst of the fire, as you heard, and lived? Or has God tried to take himself a nation from the midst of a nation, with trials, withsigns, and withwonders,and withwar, and with a stronghand, and withan outstretched arm, and withgreat terrors, like everything the Lordyour Goddid for you in Egypt before your eyes?

Or Exodus 13:7–10:

Unleavened bread willbe eaten throughout the seven days. . .You will tell your son on that day, saying: “This is because of what the Lord didfor me when I went out of Egypt”. It must be a sign for you on your hand and a memorial between your eyes, so that God’s law will be in your mouth, for with a strong hand the Lord brought you out of Egypt. You must observe this rule in its season forever.

  Ask about it. Tell about it. The festivals and the sabbath are reminders of the exodus. The phylacteries and the redemption of the first born too. To say that the entirety of Jewish religious teaching and practice is about relaying and receiving the testimony would be an exaggeration. But almost all of it is.
  The  testimony  also  makes  for  some  natural  theology,  albeit  less  abstract  than  the ontological,  cosmological,or  even  design  arguments.  The  testimony  is evidence for  the miracles of the exodus. The proof is especially Jewish: supported by and supporting the central Jewish narrative. No circularity. Best served with matzo balls. But it’s not the only Jewishproof: there’s also the unlikely survival of the Jews, their disproportionate contribution to ideals, the unlikely fulfilment of prophecies, etc.—a cumulative case (see Gottlieb 2017).


The Kuzari Principle

  We know a lot on the basis of testimony. If you never visited Napoleon, then you should believe about him on the basis of testimony: of course, there was a Napoleon. All this makes sense so long as testimony should usually be believed. But, believe me, testimonyshould not always be believed. I drive a Ferrari. QED. We shouldn’t believe just anything on the basis of testimonyeither. If your neighbor  reports his visit to Napoleon, keep your kids close. A Principle of Testimony(POT)close enough to the truth then: Testimony should usually be believed, except in special circumstances.
  Special circumstances are sundry enough. You already know that Napoleon is long dead. Your neighbor smells of something. And it isn’t France. Something like POT is widely enough diffused by philosophers, for whatever their testimony is worth. Applied to our case POT gives us: we should believe testimony about the miracles of the exodus, unless we have special reason not to. This doesn’t get us far. You, dear skeptics, will have sundry reasons not to. But I’m planting a seed.
  Now that you’ve been softened towards testimony generally, I work my way to another principle about testimony. Enter Saadya Gaon (ninth–tenth century)—Jewish philosopher and head of a rabbinical academy in Babylonia. He presents a quick argument for the miracle of the manna:

Now it is not likely that the forbears of the children of Israel should have been in agreement upon this matter if they had considered it a lie. Such [proof] suffices, then, as the requisite of every authentic tradition.Besides, if they had told their children: “We lived in the wilderness for forty years eating naughtexcept manna,”and there had been no basis for that in fact, their children would have answered them: “Now you are telling us a lie. Thou, so and so, is not this thy field, and thou, so and so, is not this thy garden from which you have  always  derived  your  sustenance?”This  is,  then,  something  that  the children would not have accepted by any manner of means.(Saadia Gaon 1948:30)

  I couldn’t convince you that your father grew up on meringues baked and delivered by Dwight Eisenhower. Even if dad was the strong and quiet type, he’d have told youthat. Harder yet to
4convince  everyone  in  the  neighborhood  that theirparents  enjoyed  a  daily  visit  from Eisenhower.
  But how about more distant ancestors? Your great-great-great-. ..grandfather grew up on meringues baked and delivered by Pope Boniface IX. You don’t believe me. How could I know such things? The rest of the neighborhood won’t believe me about their ancestors. Even so, it’s not as if you’d have heard about it either way. The Pope’s kindness might easily be forgotten after a few generations. I’d have at least more of a chance at convincing you. And what if you and your neighbors were extremely gullible?
  Weren’t the ancient Israelites extremely gullible? Some fraudster spins a wild tale about their parents. The Israelites, however gullible, just won’t bite. If it really happened to their own parents, they’d have heard of it before. But what if he told them a tale about their quite distant ancestors? Gullibility increases with distance."

.... [continued at link]

Proof of Exodus
Tyron Goldschmidt

https://a15b40df-7210-4c2a-bc68-852e76a7c6b7.filesusr.com/ugd/a91655_560a07ef86b54ae692674756a576c013.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------


I suggest reading the whole thing.

The question is, how do you create an entire "national memory" of the events recorded and presented as actual national history in the Book of Exodus?

Basically, one argument is that it seems like it would have been incredibly difficult to insert a fabricated national origins myth such as ancient Israel's as recorded in the Old Testament, since it involved such amazing divine miracles that were claimed to have been witnessed by the entire nation coming out of Egypt and traveling through all these specific geographical locations.  (e.g. parting of the Red Sea and the pillar of cloud/fire, miraculous destruction of the walls of Jericho... even though that was in the book of Joshua, but you get the point)  At what point does everyone in the nation become totally convinced a story like that happened and start handing it down to their children as real history?  How do you 'trick' an entire nation into believing that about their direct ancestors?

Don't forget these ancient people were pretty much in the same small geographical region the whole time... I mean, curious descendents probably didn't have to go far to see if the accounts in Exodus checked out. 

A related argument is based on the character of the ancient Israelite people (as described in Exodus)  They are not portrayed heroically as you might expect the fabricaters of a nationalistic/patriotic origins myth.  To the contrary, the ancient Israelites are portrayed as constant bumblers at best, and often times wicked evildoers.  It's not what you'd expect for a myth.

Both points suggest that the Exodus events might be, essentially, true.


I've only recently been introduced to this idea.  Curious if anyone can poke holes in it.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26547489 - 03/20/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Just so everyone is clear, this is a highly appropriate topic for this subforum. The OP is asking how, if the Bible is considered myth and the modern presumption is that it has been debunked as an historical document, there could be such cultural and historical cohesiveness between the known narrative of Israel and the Book of Exodus. I find it an interesting question, and I hope subsequent posts remain respectful and constructive.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7]
    #26547491 - 03/20/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The question is, how do you create an entire "national memory" of the events




It's like Democracy: the person with the most sycophants wins.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26547635 - 03/20/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

propaganda!


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26548184 - 03/21/20 06:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

hi ohk 7,


is truth abstract or concrete?

can concrete evidence come from an abstract truth?

can the truth be told without placing it in a box?

what is the difference between external and internal implications?


like a memory, invisible architecture is not an appearance but an experience.

evidence has a certain taste, a taste that's tested internally.

may be they were able to see that the evidence is inside of themselves. if internal truths have a certain resonance, why choose ignorance over knowledge?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26548242 - 03/21/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:


evidence has a certain taste, a taste that's tested internally.

may be they were able to see that the evidence is inside of themselves. if internal truths have a certain resonance, why choose ignorance over knowledge?




For the power?

    "Priests and Politicians, never before, So Suddenly and So unanimously concurred in Reestablishing Darkness and Ignorance5 Superstition and Despotism."
John Adams' Letter To Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26548284 - 03/21/20 07:51 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:


evidence has a certain taste, a taste that's tested internally.

may be they were able to see that the evidence is inside of themselves. if internal truths have a certain resonance, why choose ignorance over knowledge?




For the power?

    "Priests and Politicians, never before, So Suddenly and So unanimously concurred in Reestablishing Darkness and Ignorance5 Superstition and Despotism."
John Adams' Letter To Thomas Jefferson



when you talk about the taste of evidence you are lost in Whoville.
the taste is a metaphor for what you mentally hunger.
propaganda shapes your mental hunger, as much as childhood and peer pressure.

don't be convinced by taste, unless you are at the level of basic chemistry. there is no taste of truth except every flavor simultaneously.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26548308 - 03/21/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

And how is your response not the epitome of propaganda?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26548457 - 03/21/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Because you are forwarding a hypothesis lacking in authoritative backing?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26548877 - 03/21/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

great questions,
check sources,
consider motivations,
don't swallow red herrings


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26548987 - 03/21/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

what about swallowing manna?


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26549323 - 03/21/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think the most important point is that the Exodus events are written to have been witnessed by the entire nation (everyone's great grandparents).  Many of the biggest miraculous events were not private revelations of a prophet or high priesthood,  they were witnessed by the eyes of the entire nation.  (or at least claimed to be) ...  Something like that has to really have a lot of substance behind it for virtually everyone in the nation to believe that these things literally happened in these specific geographic locations only centuries ago and everyone's ancestors were eyewitness to it... not a mysterious and distant legend of origins, but passed on to each Israelite generation as literal historical events that everyone's grandparents directly participated in.  Their whole nation was etched out of the shared belief that these events really happened to them in recent history.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7]
    #26549475 - 03/21/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Good point


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26550554 - 03/22/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

on Passover we swallow manna (matzos) - with enough wine (4 cups) you may see something like a mushroom effect.

the traditional holiday commemorating exodus from Egypt works to keep families together, and the jewish culture thriving.

the last supper (with Jesus in it) was one such gathering.

philosophically, escaping one's bondage (which is the self/habits) and becoming free from domination by despots like pharo (or any unfair leader) are the issues at hand.

Symbolically if you don't take a chance (like going into the desert for a long trip) then you may not get any transcendent help (like ten commandments) but I think the main issue is about understanding oppression and relief, and how we all share the plight.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26550732 - 03/22/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
philosophically, escaping one's bondage (which is the self/habits) and becoming free from domination by despots like pharo (or any unfair leader) are the issues at hand.

Symbolically if you don't take a chance (like going into the desert for a long trip) then you may not get any transcendent help (like ten commandments) but I think the main issue is about understanding oppression and relief, and how we all share the plight.




though there was so much dire emphasis on remembering and acknowledging that God did all these things for them and they were all direct witness of his miracles and fully dependent on Him for every aspect of their lives.  The ancient Israelites' entire scripture was bent around this fundamental belief in God as an actual, visible presence in their world.  There is no doubt of that. 
Also you'd think all the elaborate and specific rituals lends itself more towards divine direction than anything else...  Look at the design of Moses' Tabernacle for instance... do you really think something like that naturally arises out of collective philosophical musings? .... Why was the whole nation in the grips of such a philosophy?  From the elite down to the lowly servant.  It seems far more likely that the whole nation of ancient Israel was motivated by something that was undeniably proven to all of them, over and over again.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7]
    #26550797 - 03/22/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

maybe you want to look at the 4 questions and how they are answered differently for each kind of child that asks.
specifically the Wicked child, Simple child, the one that Does Not Know How to Ask, and the Wise child.
The wicked son, who asks, What are all these things to you? The Haggadah brands this question as evil because the son separates himself from the group...
The answers to this child are all personal as if I myself were brought from slavery in Egypt.
This is not about telling a falsehood, it is about making the facts of the tradition meaningful in our lives.
I have never been to Egypt nor met a pharo nor walked in a desert except maybe Arizona. Also the evil child is not evil.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26550853 - 03/22/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
philosophically, escaping one's bondage (which is the self/habits) and becoming free from domination by despots like pharo (or any unfair leader) are the issues at hand.

Symbolically if you don't take a chance (like going into the desert for a long trip) then you may not get any transcendent help (like ten commandments) but I think the main issue is about understanding oppression and relief, and how we all share the plight.




also, if this is just general social-psychological phenomena of drawing fictional mythology over real-world experiences, why don't we find similar examples with the many other tribes and ethnic groups that had slavery/liberation experiences...  why is the national testimony of ancient Israel so unique?


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7]
    #26551082 - 03/22/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

are you asking "In what way are the Israelites the chosen people?"
depending on what kind of child you may be, one might answer,
"because Hashem chose me when we went out of Egypt".

of course, the whole matter is assembled in a self referential context and should not be taken literally.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: ancient Israel's national memory [Re: saved7]
    #26551270 - 03/22/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

another excerpt from the Goldschmidt paper I find persuasive:


"Applied to the case at hand: the fraudster would not have successfully sold the Torah to a later generation of Israelites because the Torah describes itself as the law of the land, and the audience would have discovered no such thing: just as no fraudster could invent a book of statutes or acts of parliament for England, and make it pass upon the nation, as the only book of statutes that ever they had known,so too no fraudster could have persuaded the Jews, that they had owned and acknowledged the Torah, all along from the days of Moses. Convincing a nation to adopt a long-lost history or a new code of law would be hard enough; convincing a nation to adopt history and laws that are supposed to have been long-preserved is even harder."


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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