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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26540374 - 03/17/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said:Btw, Jesus isn’t a symbol of salvation around the world lol.
He obviously is. Belief in eternal salvation at the cross of Jesus Christ is extremely widespread across the world. Doesn't mean you have to take it as proof of anything, but when you can't even concede basic uncontested facts about a subject, then it's clear you aren't here for an honest discussion, isn't it? So what are you here for?
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26540412 - 03/17/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is not “a source of salvation around the world”
In fact, it has been the source of pain and misery in the same places where it’s prevalent.
The number of Christians is BARELY larger than the number of Muslims, and very concentrated in the WESTERN world.

Clearly, Christianity is only popular in places that were forced into it via the Crusades and colonialism, though the last one didn’t always work.
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26540415 - 03/17/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It’s not like you said Jesus is popular around the world. Cause I’d agree with that. But “a source of salvation”? Naaw
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26540814 - 03/17/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: Clearly, Christianity is only popular in places that were forced into it via the Crusades and colonialism, though the last one didn’t always work.
Keep digging and you might discover that history didn't begin in the middle ages.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26540826 - 03/17/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Keep ignoring the bulk of my poasts and focusing on the tiny bits that are debatable.
How does it matter when it began? That does nothing to deter my point...
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Shr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26540931 - 03/17/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nothing probably will either...
... that’s the way arguing goes most of the time.
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26540950 - 03/17/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It’s called critical thinking. It doesn’t have to be a tangible subject matter. He just needs to construct a logical argument that concludes he’s right...or that I’m wrong.
That’s the way debating goes most of the time
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Shr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26541247 - 03/17/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Bet ya dollars to donuts you’re both wrong.
I know this for a fact, since I am always right.
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26541528 - 03/17/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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saved7 said:
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Babylon said:
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CMACD said: Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?
If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.
I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.
Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?
The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.
Nobody is converted by an academic argument. The academic argument shows the evidence pointing, overwhelmingly, to the truth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the gospels. This shows it is not for a lack of evidence that we reject it (as we like to claim), but something else... ideology, or our heart...
As far as miracles being proof... proof of what? Why couldn't you simply claim that Jesus was using demonic power like the Pharisees did? If the scriptures are true, than God gave a lot of proof... divine miraculous interventions, yet His people rejected Him almost immediately afterwards.
Have you ever considered the possibility that your Creator knows the condition of your heart a lot better than you do?
The way Jesus acted, actually lends a lot of weight to this idea. He concealed his identity in riddles and parables and mysteries. When he did perform a miracle, he commanded the witness to "tell no one"... When his followers desired to know who he was, even then Jesus was reserved about it.. asking "Who do you say that I am?" , inviting them into the mystery of him being God in the flesh.
When Jesus referred to "ears to hear" he was saying you could have the truth presented to you, and still reject it. The Pharisees could see a permanently crippled man rise from hid bed and walk away, and still deny him.
The evidence can lead you right up to the edge of the truth, and then you have to accept it, not with your senses, but in your heart. Jesus is "the way" into our heart... when we accept Jesus as our Lord, we simultaneously come to the realization of just how much we've rebelled against our Creator and how desperately we need someone to save us... and that thing that once seemed really weird a kooky about Jesus "pouring out his blood" to cover our sins, suddenly becomes the most beautiful thing ever.
When the Jews demanded Jesus give him a "sign" or proof of his divine authority, he answered that no sign would be given except for the "sign of Jonah"... The ending act of the Old Testament Book of Jonah is all about an amazing mass conversion of a non-Jewish kingdom (Nineveh)... it seems more than a coincidence that this unknown crucified criminal from the ancient middle-east quickly became the symbol of divine salvation among non-Jewish kingdoms across the entire world. Do you really believe it's all a mere coincidence of history?
So if he said to tell no one, why are you telling people? You seem to be going specifically against Christ's instructions here. As far as what sort of miracle I mean one directed specifically at me. Written accounts of miracles that happened more than 2000 years ago are not very convincing, especcially in a book that has been translated specifically for political purposes. If god does not think I am ready to believe than nothing you say is likely to make me believe, do you really consider yourself more able to convince people than your god is?
And no, I don't think it is a coincidence, as I said before I believe Christ is an incarnation of the dying god. Also known as John Barleycorn, Osiris and many other names. You are the one insisting the bible is not mythology, that it is simply the factual retelling of the life of a Jewish criminal.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
#26542604 - 03/18/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Babylon said: So if he said to tell no one, why are you telling people?
Jesus clearly wanted to conceal his true identity and power to some degree, at least until his work was finished. It was usually after performing healing miracles that he instructed the person to not tell anyone what he had done.
And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean. And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed. And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away; And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way - Mark 1:40-44
It seems there were at least two reasons for this. Jesus did not want crowds of people clamoring after him in order to catch a glimpse of some amazing sight... (the way reporters might scramble for a picture of an elusive celebrity)... He didn't want people running to him because they wanted to see cool magic tricks.
Jesus always responded to faith, the various individuals who hand't even met him before, yet they perceived his righteousness and believed in him. To these, Jesus gave everything. Not because they had seen miracles, but because of their faith. His entire ministry was like this. Jesus concealed his identity from the doubtful and disbelieving, yet revealed himself and his power to those who believed.
Everything about his outward public appearance seemed mundanely human... just look at the way he died... mocked, beaten, humiliated and nailed to a cross... a death reserved for lowly slaves of the Roman empire. Could there be a more "un-divine" or ungodly presentation than that? And yet, paradoxically, it is this lowly bloody slave-death that becomes the symbol of heavenly conquest and liberation from evil.
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: - 1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Another reason for Jesus' concealment is that it was not the right time for him to be fully revealed. His 'hour' had not yet come.
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. - John 2:1-4
Jesus was speaking in a kind of riddle here. What did the request of "new wine" have to do with his hour not coming? It is left purposefully unexplained. Jesus almost seems to 'troll' people like this... saying things that sound outwardly foolish or senseless, yet concealed within is a great hidden truth.
And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
- Luke 22:13-20
It reminds me of a similar style of concealment you'll find in the Bible, where the truth is revealed in quite unexpected ways.
...And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? ....And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. - Acts ch.1
You'll see these kinds of 'inside jokes' in the Bible.. where people mocking Jesus or his followers, ironically tell the truth. Here the targets of mockery actually are "full of new wine"... not that they've been drinking, but the same new "wine" that Jesus riddled to his mother at the wedding, and the same cup of "wine" that was poured out to cover sins (speaking of course of his blood on the cross)
Another familiar instance of this type of 'ironic truth' is when the Roman soldiers nail a sign over Jesus' head on the cross.
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him. ....And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. - Matthew ch.27
In their mockery they are ironically proclaiming a great truth. They are laughing at the idea of Jesus being a king, dressing him with the robe and crown of thorns, and yet as they killed Jesus, they were unknowingly crowning him as the ultimate King of all creation, to who belongs all glory and power and dominion, forever.
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Babylon said: You seem to be going specifically against Christ's instructions here. As far as what sort of miracle I mean one directed specifically at me. Written accounts of miracles that happened more than 2000 years ago are not very convincing,
And yet, if you really study the subject, the best explanation for how we have the Gospels today is that Jesus really did those things, that he really rose from the dead and left behind an empty tomb. Every other explanation (fraud, myth, hallucination, etc.) fierecely resists the evidence and crumbles under the weight of logical arguments to the contrary. The only explanation that makes sense is that people really did directly witness these events and were so moved to memorialize them.
Again, the unrelenting truth of Jesus Christ opens up to those who want it. If you seek to doubt, then you can assure yourself with some baseless talking point (like the one below) and walk away believing whatever you want.
Other readers will hear the truth of Jesus Christ in these words, even if they don't fully understand what it all means. That's how I came to know the truth. I began to hear it in verses from the New Testament that I stumbled into online. Then I believed. I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart and instantly felt an overwhelming change within me... the phrase being "born again" that I had always laughed at. Whereas I was blind, now I see.
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Babylon said: especcially in a book that has been translated specifically for political purposes.
The four gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke,John have gone essentially unchanged since the 1st century when they were written, despite many translations into other languages. That is what all the evidence shows... But the evidence doesn't really matter, right? We're just looking for any excuse to deny and doubt. I could show you several hours of in depth detailed lectures proving, empirically, that the gospels of Jesus Christ are some of the best historical biographies ever known, and it won't matter. At that point, you'll just shift the goalposts and demand a miracle.
This is not about evidence. It's about our hearts. And accepting Jesus means simultaneously accepting that we are rebels against God in need of a savior. It means we don't get to play master of our own lives anymore. So we look for any excues to doubt...
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Babylon said: And no, I don't think it is a coincidence, as I said before I believe Christ is an incarnation of the dying god. Also known as John Barleycorn, Osiris and many other names.
I suggest watching this. If I recall it's a pretty devestating rebuttal to the popular "Zeitgeist" film that came out awhile ago that tried to debunk Christianity and claim Jesus was just another variation on ancient mythology.
"Zeitgeist DEBUNKED by Chris White"
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26543561 - 03/18/20 09:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You realize Zeitgeist is why I accept Christ? Convince me that he is NOT an incarnation of the dying god and he becomes simply a Jewish Criminal. JHVH has never spoken to me, but other gods have, and it will take far more than a fairly weak academic arguement to convince me that they are not something that should be worshiped.
Edited by Babylon (03/18/20 09:54 PM)
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] 1
#26544037 - 03/19/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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OP just likes to repeat over and over “there is undeniable proof, empirical evidence, blah” without actually providing any evidence.
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26544086 - 03/19/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: OP just likes to repeat over and over “there is undeniable proof, empirical evidence, blah” without actually providing any evidence.
He's got perfectly good logic, but he keeps insisting on expert analysis and doesn't realize we don't trust his experts.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
#26544117 - 03/19/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Babylon said: You realize Zeitgeist is why I accept Christ? Convince me that he is NOT an incarnation of the dying god and he becomes simply a Jewish Criminal. JHVH has never spoken to me, but other gods have, and it will take far more than a fairly weak academic arguement to convince me that they are not something that should be worshiped.
And a great many religions and cults have been started from private visions like what you claim.
The difference with Jesus Christ of the New Testament is that he alone has the enigmatic witness of history. There is no other phenomenon like the Gospels in other belief systems. These are multiple cross-confirming historical eyewitness accounts that defy alternative explanations of fraud or myth.
And people went to their deaths, not for a belief-system or ideology (which people of many faiths have done and still do today), but the early Christians risked their lives swearing they had directly witnessed these things in the flesh, with their own eyes.... Such a critical distinction to understand.
Really, the fact that a relatively unknown and executed Jewish criminal is now widely regarded as Lord and Savior of the world who we reference everytime we enter the current date... and that Jesus himself, speaking of the Sign of Jonah, predicted that his death would lead to his truth being spread out to the non-Jewish world... The more you look at the evidence, the more you will start to realize that it takes more faith to doubt it than to simply accept the truth that Jesus really did rise from the dead.
And a gnostic-style Christ separate from the crucified and resurrected flesh and blood one is no Christ at all. The blood he shed for us on the cross meant everything... eternal life.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - 1 Corinthians 1:22-25
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26544133 - 03/19/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So the Jews asked for empirical evidence, the Greeks asked to explain using logic, and Christians went “naw, fuck that, you just gotta believe cause god is amaaaazing”? Got it.
The more you say shit like “non-Jewish world”, the more I realize you have multiple agendas here. Dunno why I’d expect any different.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26544276 - 03/19/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: So the Jews asked for empirical evidence, the Greeks asked to explain using logic, and Christians went “naw, fuck that, you just gotta believe cause god is amaaaazing”? Got it.
... and all the evidence you don't want to deal with... specifically the lack of alternative explanation for the Gospels other than that they're simply true.
There's a reason other religions don't all have their own versions of the New Testament with the same type of multi-witness account phenomena and associated carrying forth by martyrdom. Jesus Christ is a one-of-the-kind enigma in all of history... as far as religious claims go, it's a blaring signal amidst a field of relative white noise. Try opening your heart to the possibility that it's true.
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feldman114 said:The more you say shit like “non-Jewish world”, the more I realize you have multiple agendas here. Dunno why I’d expect any different.
When I say that I mean "plus" the non-Jewish world(or gentiles)... It's not meant as a negative slant on Jewish people.
An interesting (and seemingly very 'human') thing about ancient Judaism is that they appeared to put so much emphasis on themselves as an ethnic group for its own sake.. yet if you read the Jewish Old Testament, it's clearly stated that their eventual savior King was going to be a savior to the whole world.... all nations, all tongues, all people, to the ends of the earth.... and that ancient Israel was meant for a kind of 'springboard' to that destiny.... a front-runner, a messenger running to the nations with the good news.
Just as Joseph was thrown into a pit by his brothers and ultimately exalted to rule the kingdom of Egypt, so Jesus was thrown into the grave by his Jewish brethren, and ultimately exalted to rule the Earth. The Bible is the same story told over and over again at different scales. It is fractal. It's quite amazing if you take the time to get into it.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26544292 - 03/19/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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... and all the evidence you don't want to deal with... specifically the lack of alternative explanation for the Gospels other than that they're simply true.
There's a reason other religions don't all have their own versions of the New Testament with the same type of multi-witness account phenomena and associated carrying forth by martyrdom. Jesus Christ is a one-of-the-kind enigma in all of history... as far as religious claims go, it's a blaring signal amidst a field of relative white noise. Try opening your heart to the possibility that it's true.
Think about what you’re saying here.
First off, “lack of alternative explanations” is NOT proof of anything. Secondly, there are many. The main one being that the writers used each other’s work as reference.
There are religions based on facts and logic, but Christianity isn’t one of them. You prove this by asking people to “let Jesus into your heart”, instead of asking them to review evidence.
You start by putting faith in something, then go on to try and prove it. That’s called bias and it’s why you continue to insist you have proof.
Idk what happens when we die. But I know you have no Proof that we go to heaven/hell like the Bible says. Idk if it’s possible to turn water to wine. But I know you don’t have proof someone has done so.
Can you say the same? A logical person must be able to say “I don’t know what happens after I die”.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26546948 - 03/20/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: First off, “lack of alternative explanations” is NOT proof of anything.
Right, even if you saw with your own eyes, Jesus crucified and rise from the dead, you could tell yourself that he was a super advanced alien being with regenerative properties, some cosmic trickster... not necessarily the presence of the God of the Bible. There's always a way to doubt if you want to doubt badly enough.
The question is, where does all the evidence lead? And this case, it is pointing towards the conclusion that the gospels are true, that people really did witness the things they wrote about concerning Jesus.
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feldman114 said: Secondly, there are many. The main one being that the writers used each other’s work as reference.
And using specific examples, I've demonstrated why that almost certainly is not the case. The 4 gospels contain many subtle omissions and casual confirmations of each other in a style we only find with truthful multiple-eyewitness reporting. This is the opposite of what we'd expect from a derivative or embellished work of fiction.
I'm finding more and more that skeptics really aren't concerned about evidence like they claim to be. It seems to be all about falling back on a handful of dismissive talking points that can't withstand the slightest bit of scrutiny.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26546950 - 03/20/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lol OF COURSE I’d believe it if I saw it with my own eyes.
Shit, I’d believe it if I saw actual proof. But a lack of proof is not proof, like I said before....
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
#26547084 - 03/20/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: Lol OF COURSE I’d believe it if I saw it with my own eyes.
Really? That's all it takes? People see "magic" tricks with their own eyes all the time, you know. I think you should put some more thought into that response.
The evidence will only take you so far. The ancient Israelites witnessed miracle after miracle and still many of them turned their hearts away from God. Accepting the truth, ultimately, is not about weighing empirical evidence. (though evidence is very important)
You can be shown all the demonstrable evidence (I've shown you some in this thread) that consistently points to the gospels being actual eyewitness accounts and not works of fiction or fraud as is popularly claimed.
The real proof comes when you finally accept Jesus into your heart and find yourself born again at the foot of the Cross. And this is coming from someone who laughed at Christians and the Bible for most of his life.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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