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Offlinephi1618
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What is ownership?
    #2653852 - 05/08/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There are many different things that can be owned:

A manufactured good
a piece of land
a license to use part of the EM spectrum
a license to use a piece of information
a copyright on a piece of information
a patent on a method or device
mineral rights to a piece of federal land
stock in a company
a loan, as a bond or other form

Are there any important differences between these different things?

Does free-market capitalism work equally well whether you are selling refined sugar or Windows?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653868 - 05/08/04 05:14 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Private property: that which an individual (or group of individuals) has the exclusive right to own, profit from and dispose of as they see fit. This includes things which are made by human effort or voluntarily exchanged.

Common property: belongs to all people in common; it is that which all have an equal right to use and enjoy. This includes land, air, and water.

State property: belongs to the state and is subject to the direction of the government.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653884 - 05/08/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Your post does not represent reality, but a "should be".


Edited by phi1618 (05/08/04 05:19 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653888 - 05/08/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It does not represent reality as the government recognizes it, but does represent reality as it is.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653894 - 05/08/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sorry, but whatever should be, most land is clearly private property.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653906 - 05/08/04 05:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
I'm sorry, but whatever should be, most land is clearly private property.



No, it is merely CONSIDERED private property in the eyes of the government.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653912 - 05/08/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, I'm really more interested in the difference between information and physical goods. Maybe I should have started two threads?


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653920 - 05/08/04 05:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Those things considered private property by the government are those considered private property by tradition; an awful lot of land is private property, both in the eyes of the government and in the eyes of most people, particularly land owners.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653932 - 05/08/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Ah yes, intellectual property. As a musician, this is an interesting topic for me. If I write a song, it is my property because it was created by me. I can sign away the rights to it if I so choose, just as I can voluntarily exchange any piece of physical property, but if I don't do so, then you don't have the right to take it without my permission.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653942 - 05/08/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
Those things considered private property by the government are those considered private property by tradition; an awful lot of land is private property, both in the eyes of the government and in the eyes of most people, particularly land owners.



This is true. Land is sadly viewed by most people as private property, even though it is a finite resource no one had anything to do with its creation. I am not saying that people should not be allowed to USE land privately, but they must pay a rent to society for this use.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653955 - 05/08/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If I make a violin, I can either keep it or sell it. If I sell it, it's gone, and I have to make another if I want to sell another.

If I play a piece and digitally record it, then I can sell it. If I sell it, I still have it and can sell it again, for no extra cost.

If I have a digital recording that somebody else has the copyright on, and I like it alot, I can share it with my freinds to increase our common well being at very little cost to myself (a good thing). However, in doing so I am violating the law (a bad thing).

Additionaly, copyright enforcement is an issue.

It is very easy to prevent me from stealing a violin - I have to break into your house to get it, and you'll probably try to stop me.

However, it is very difficult to prevent me from sharing your song with my freind - you aren't involved, and both me and my freind (the only involved parties) benefit.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2653973 - 05/08/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Just because a form of theft is hard to crack down on does not make it wrong. And so what if it doesn't cost anything extra to make another copy? It's still my intellectual property, and should not be taken without my permission.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653982 - 05/08/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I am not saying that people should not be allowed to USE land privately, but they must pay a rent to society for this use.




What you might mean (and I could be swayed to your position fairly easily if this is what you are saying) is that "people should have to pay a rent to society for this use."

The reason I say this is I don't believe there is a natural or moral imperitive that says that land MUST be communal property.
However, allowing land ownership may cause undue profits to accumalate in the hands of the rich, to the detriment of the overall (mean and median) prosperity and happiness of society.

I'm just not sure about this last, but would be willing to consider this proposition:
"all land should be communal property, the use of which can be licensed to individuals"

It could be modified by adding, say:
"at a rate dependent on their use of the land"
so that a mining concern (that removes value from the land) would pay more than a park or developer (who add to the value of the land)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is ownership? [Re: phi1618]
    #2654041 - 05/08/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, we're in agreement here. A way of paraphrasing "communal property" could be "conditional private property," as opposed to "absolute private property."


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