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OfflinePTreeDish
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How do my grain jars look?
    #26537353 - 03/15/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Spawned these first two jars on 3/3 and shook them up a week later using rye grass seed and a pinch of gypsum. How do they look - far enough to begin G2G?





Now, this jar just came out of the pressure cooker yesterday and have not yet been inoculated. I noticed several of the jars have this white / milky stuff at the bottom.

I *suspect* that all this is is gypsum, water and starch from the grain. I went a little heavier - maybe too much - on the gypsum in this batch to help with the clumping. I also must have had some boil over because the pressure cooker stunk like burnt rye grain when I opened it.

What do you think?



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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26537366 - 03/15/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Top two look good! I would pitch that third one.........start strong with another jar.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: SynKyd]
    #26537406 - 03/15/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup: Think the first two are far enough along for G2G or should I wait a little longer?


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26537530 - 03/15/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Wait until they’re fully colonized to g2g.........patience


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: SynKyd]
    #26537549 - 03/15/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Cool - will need to search and find what fully colonized looks like. :laugh:

For the questionable jar, it came out of the PC looking this - which is why I think it's just harmless moisture with excess gypsum that did not get completely dissolved.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26537572 - 03/15/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Your moisture content is off clearly in all of the jars.
What was your grain prep technique? Gypsum cannot be excessive in jars since you dump your soaked grains in a strainer then load your jars.
You should not have grains stuck to the top of the glass jar as you do.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26537600 - 03/15/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I followed RR's Rye Grass Seed Prep, which is:

- Put 1 1/4 cup Rye Grass in Quart Jar
- Put in a Pinch of Gypsum
- Shake Jars and Distribute Gypsum
- Pour in 5/8 cup water
- With solid lid, shake and mix everything up
- Replace lid with filtered lid, cover with foil, PC 1 hour @15PSI.

I did mess up on both batches by forgetting to leave open the PC valve for 5 mins while steaming to let any air escape but once I realized it, I lifted the valve back to immediately go back down to 0 and started the process all over again (let steam for 5 minutes, then close valve and build pressure to 15+psi, start countdown).


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish] * 1
    #26537655 - 03/15/20 11:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That tek is so outdated it’s not funny.
1 hour is not nearly long enough to reach the temperatures you want in your grains.
I used to do 90 minutes. My new minimum is 120 minutes. I more average around 140.
Venting until it’s 100% steam coming out of the toggle weight valve is absolutely necessary.
The drip of water test on the top of the lid of a PC is the best to know when it’s reached temp.
IMHO I’d re-PC those jars for 60 minutes to kill any bad shit in them and dump them in my chicken scratch pile.
Time to start over. We’ve all done it. Check my gallery in “contams.”
:2cents:


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26537734 - 03/16/20 01:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That tek is so outdated it’s not funny.



Dang...Is it just the pc time that is out of date? If I'm going to have to redo 20 jars, I'd like to not make any more mistakes.  :facepalm3:

Quote:

The drip of water test on the top of the lid of a PC is the best to know when it’s reached temp.



Not familiar with that test, but I do have a psi gauge.


Edited by PTreeDish (03/16/20 01:06 AM)


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26537992 - 03/16/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That's RRs tek for Rye Grass which is different than his Rye Berries tek

The DVD has a video for both as they're used for different species.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26538006 - 03/16/20 07:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

My manual says to vent for 10 minutes, not 5.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26538011 - 03/16/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I’ve re pc’d bacterial jars I caught a few days in and reinoculated and they came out fine.  Grains get a little darker but it works.

This whole bin of cakes were repc’d with trich at the inoculation points and then reinoculated


Sterile is sterile

Not saying that yours are early enough to do so, but if you catch jars quick enough (I’d say within 5 days of being inoculated) that can be done.. just something to keep in mind in the future

Faht


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: fahtster]
    #26538385 - 03/16/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Appreciate that insight. The questionable jar came out of the PC looking like this so I'm suspicious that it's bacteria and not just water, gypsum, rye starch. That said, can't hurt to re-PC. It's only been 2 days so far.

@rumfor69, my model says 5 mins for steam and I am using the rye grass seed tek because I'm using rye grass seed.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26538536 - 03/16/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
@rumfor69, my model says 5 mins for steam and I am using the rye grass seed tek because I'm using rye grass seed.




Ahh sorry I get confused easily sometimes. That's why it looks so different to me
I have no experience with rye grass seed. I've never done the steam first thing.
But I run my cookers very differently than anyone else
as I use portable 1500w 8" electric burners and heavy heat resistant magnets
on the jiggler weight to offset the lack of power coming from the heat source.
When they reach 16-17psi I start a 90min timer and start turning down the burners.
I'm using the largest all american cookers.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26538783 - 03/16/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

TL'S water drip test is a new Tek.

Get PC up to temperature, while it is venting drip 3 drips of water on the top of your PC if they evaporate you have reached optimum temperature. If they roll down the lid, you ain't there yet boss.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26538834 - 03/16/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
TL'S water drip test is a new Tek.

Get PC up to temperature, while it is venting drip 3 drips of water on the top of your PC if they evaporate you have reached optimum temperature. If they roll down the lid, you ain't there yet boss.




It’s not that new, since I’ve been doing it since 2012, but you’re 100% correct sir.
I just drip some water under the handle of the PC, if it doesn’t evaporate in 5 seconds, it’s not at temp.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26538855 - 03/16/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Has something changed or been lossed about the use of a pressure cooker?

I've pressure cooked with grandma and mom for my whole life. You turn it
on put the weight on it to trap the steam. When the jiggler starts to
jiggle it's at that psi setting. It can only jiggle properly if that
pressure is reached which means it's at that temperature 15psi achieves.
There's conversion charts for the temperatures of steam under pressure.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26538857 - 03/16/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You want to push all of the air out of the PC and have it full of steam before putting on the weight.
This action ensures that you’ve got the entire PC at temperature and full of steam and the jars at the top will be as hot as the ones on the bottom.
What you described is fine for canning, not for “sterilizing.”


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AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here
"One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26538868 - 03/16/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

First part of my statement was a joke. So many "new" teks running around.

Good to see your still here sir. I remember when i started years ago it was you and fooman and some of the early guys TEKs that we all followed.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26538886 - 03/16/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting, never bothered anything I've done. And I'm not sure if it
follows the laws of thermodynamics and exchange. Cold dense air isn't
going to stay trapped in the expanding hot air causing an extreme temperature
variance. It would even completely make a psi gauge inaccurate. :shrug:


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26538899 - 03/16/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: fahtster]
    #26539022 - 03/16/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting view points. I'd never use hot or boiling water on room
Temp jars it will crack them, and it heats up too fast causing more
cracking. Seen this happen many times. Steam is air it's not different
than air. A cooker reading 15psi isn't different temperatures inside, its
just boiling water at a higher temperature cause pressure is pushing against
it.

Thermodynamics and heat exchange say a lot of that information isn't accurate.
But I find I always believe different things than most just
based on my knowledge of science. In my experiences i find myself rarely
to be wrong in application. Which usually leaves me confused about others
understandings. But hey dripping water on it and letting out steam isn't gonna
hurt anything either


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26539028 - 03/16/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The pressure gauges on PCs are geared gauges. They are not 100% accurate, even says it in the user manual.
The true gauge is the toggle weight, which should sputter once every minute or so to ensure you’re at the proper pressure.
Dripping water on the lid ensures that the top is the same temperature as the rest of the unit.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26539037 - 03/16/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I misspoke - 10 mins is the appropriate pre-weight steam time. Did not know about the water on lid test - cool. Will give this a try next go-round.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26539137 - 03/16/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

No they're not 100% accurate but I think their tested tolerance is to
a +/- tenth of a percent or something so it's still very accurate to the
whole percentage the gauge is numbered in.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26539143 - 03/16/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

My AA says it’s at 14 PSI when the toggle weight won’t stop yelling at me at 15 PSI. :shrug:
Trust the weight not the gauge.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26539151 - 03/16/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The part about venting is also in the manual for the pressure cooker.  It isn't something made up here on this site.  Sorry, but gam gam didn't RTFM.

At least you never got botulism as a result.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26539160 - 03/16/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Gam gam lmao


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26539165 - 03/16/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah my AA reads 13-14 but it screams when at that area. I wonder if geared gauges don't react to elevation changes. Either way jar always come out 100-120 minuets clean. Depends on beer consumption that day.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26539171 - 03/16/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Both my AA's the old one and the newer one don't jiggle till the gauges
say 15psi. Maybe slight elevation variations make that small difference.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26539293 - 03/16/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

FYI, I have the The All American 50X and it uses a control valve, which is what I think other folks are calling a "toggle" or "toggle weight" from the diff pc models and types. :shrug:

Per the manual for the 50x, sterilization requires the following:

Quote:

City altitude Steam Pressure Required
Sea level 15-17 psi
2000ft 16-18 psi
4000ft 17-19 psi
6000ft 18-20 psi
8000ft 19-21 psi
10,000ft 20-22 psi




Quote:

5. Open CONTROL VALVE (See Fig. 2) by placing valve lever in an upright position. The steam generated at the bottom of the sterilizer will travel around the outside of the container and then down through the material in the container to the bottom and force the air from the bottom of container up through the flexible air exhaust tube and out of the control valve.

It is important that the steam be permitted to escape vigorously from the unit for at least five-seven minutes, or until you see a continuous flow of steam.Then you may close the control valve. This process of permitting the steam to escape is called EXHAUSTING and is necessary to remove the air trapped in the unit. The greatest cause of sterilization failure is the trapping of air in the material being sterilized. Trapped air cannot escape. It is imperative that all trapped air be exhausted. With the control valve in the closed position (See Fig. 3), pressure will rise inside the sterilizer and will be indicated on the pressure gauge.




I knew I saw the 5 min somewhere...I usually do the wait for a steady flow of steam technique and it's g2g for closing the control valve. Timer starts when I hit 15 psi and I'll usually keep it near 20 for the full hour, then let cool in the cooker so it gets a little more on the way down.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish] * 1
    #26539308 - 03/16/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I sterilize at 20 PSI for 1.5 hours. 15 PSI @ 2 hours.
But always do the water test on the lid to ensure the entire unit is in fact at temperature.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26539316 - 03/16/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Hmm I'm less than 800ft maybe that's why my gauge is accurate to my jiggler


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: rumfor69]
    #26572989 - 04/02/20 10:32 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Jars have fully recovered from the car tire shaking! How's this look? Ready for G2G?



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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26573040 - 04/02/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well thats the thing about pressure gauges... 

Let me just say this, I have installed thousand of pressure gauges in my life..  I was a clean room pipe fitter for years.

You can never trust a pressure gauge, even a supposedly calibrated one, for anything accurate.  The best you can do is slap a gauge that reads atmospheric pressure rather than just gauge pressure so you can at least visibly confirm what it thinks is PSIa.  You see where I am going with this?

Any shock to a gauge will result in it not being calibrated 100%, and we know how shipping works.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish] * 1
    #26573165 - 04/02/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
Jars have fully recovered from the car tire shaking! How's this look? Ready for G2G?






:awethumb:

What do you mean recovered from the tire shaking?
Once the grains are fully colonized, they’re ready to go. You don’t need to break them up and see if they recover.
That just damages the mycelium network with extra shaking.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26573179 - 04/02/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What do you mean recovered from the tire shaking?




I mean that I took the same jars in the original post that had spots that looked like contam and I hit them against a car tire to try and break up the stuff that was stuck together. :smile: I don't have a bike tire like RR recommends in his video so I went with what I had. Had to use a tire because I just couldn't whack or shake these jars hard enough to break everything up.

Quote:

Once the grains are fully colonized, they’re ready to go. You don’t need to break them up and see if they recover.




Per the earlier posts and recommendations, I broke them up to try and address the questionable spots.

"Once the grains are fully colonized" - can you help define that further? I haven't been able to find much regarding what Rye Grass Seed jars look like fully colonized.

And I'll need to shake these jars again to break it up so I can transfer them to others jars. Right now, I could hold the jar upside down and the entire contents won't budge.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26573191 - 04/02/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, cool. Just making sure the jar wasn’t 100% then shaken then recovered. That’s old info.

If it’s one solid clump like that in the jar, it’s 100%. Sometimes jars won’t look fully colonized because grains get pressed up against the side of the jar.
But they are colonized.

I use a stack of old phone books or thick magazines that I’ve duct taped together.
Hell, you can bang the jars on your hands, but it hurts after a few jars.


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AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here
"One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife
“A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
:sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop::wow:How I Do EVERYTHING:wow::sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop:
"Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung
"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs
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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #26573215 - 04/02/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yea, the jar was 100% shaken and recovered. Lesson learned for next time.

There was no way to just break up the questionable spots, unfortunately. That said, they recovered nicely - although, I'm sure I used up some of their energy in the process.

I'm telling you, I banged the crap out of these using my hand and it wasn't enough. The block of books is a good idea. I have plenty of those laying around.

Alright cool - so sounds like these jars are ready for another shaking and G2G. Weeeeeee.


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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26603819 - 04/15/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Jars are making it over to shoeboxes and tubs as we speak.

Did 1 quart of spawn per shoebox w/ straight coir (no other additives). For the mono, 3 quarts. Wanted to do five but they weren't ready. Got another 1 or 2 tubs and 7 or 8 shoeboxes coming in a few days.

Testing 4 colonies (2 colonies x 2 varieties) grown from prints to agar.



Just leaving the lids on loose with the light on all day/night. Outside humidity is about 45% and temps range from 65-79F.


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Offlinederek420
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Re: How do my grain jars look? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26604390 - 04/15/20 11:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For future reference, once you’re jars are fully colonized you can break them up out of the car with your hands. Just make sure to wash your hands very well and use basic Sterile technique. If you haven’t checked out @shaperdreamer and her shoeboxes I highly recommend. Great lookin jar though that’s for damn sure

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662/fpart/1/vc/1


Edited by derek420 (04/15/20 11:16 PM)


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