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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26532236 - 03/13/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Influence said:
So your just going to quote scripture and fill in the blanks as to why you think there are discrepancies?

Remember your preaching to those that do not believe the scriptures are factual. I understand your trying to use them to convince someone (possibly yourself) that they are true; but mind you there are some hardcore skeptics out here.




No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...  and you will find it is very difficult to find an explanation for this pattern other than the most simple and obvious one: that the Gospels of Jesus Christ are actually truthful eyewitness testimonies.

These are the specific examples from the Gospels that I've presented so far:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173

Quote:

The Influence said:I have to ask why is the torah included in the bible if the original text is against what god originally told his people? For example and eye for an eye? Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Did the almighty change his mind?




Did He change his mind when Jesus seemingly replaced the entire Jewish temple/tabernacle system?  No, Jesus was the fulfillment of that system.  Like fruit from a tree or a baby from the womb.  It is at once a New creation, yet entirely dependent on the prepatory body before it.  And now instead of continual animal sacrifice for only temporary covering of sins, we have the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

- Matthew 27:50-51

When Jesus died on the cross, the Jewish Temple veil was torn, and what was once concealed (the Most Holy Place and presence of God)... all people and all nations now have free access to through Jesus Christ.

I'd be happy to explore this with you in another thread.  The relationship between the Old Testament and Jesus Christ is one of the most profound and mysterious subjects I know of, but it will easily overtake the current topic.

(Btw, if you look at the source of the 'eye for an eye' phrase in Exodus 21, it's really much more about establishing and maintaining a system of equity and fairness, and nothing to do with seeking revenge as is often assumed... )  People tend to forget that Jesus went even more extreme than the Old Testament Law, like when he stated that hating your brother is just as bad as killing them. I don't think Jesus was criticizing the 'eye for an eye' code at all... he was saying that you should go even further.  Instead of simply striving for fairness and equality,  you should be willing to give more and more to your adversary.  ("if they want the coat off your back, give them two") ... because, as Jesus himself demonstrated on the cross, in total sacrifice there is total victory.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
- Matthew 16:25


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineCMACD
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26534906 - 03/14/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26535007 - 03/14/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:

No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...





Maybe we should start a new topic on one of your other questions?

Since, everyone already accepts saved7 argument presented here...


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535356 - 03/14/20 06:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...





Maybe we should start a new topic on one of your other questions?

Since, everyone already accepts saved7 argument presented here...




Really the evidence for the genuine historicity and eyewitness testimony of the 4 Gospels is overwhelming... 
It's not so much that it proves the scriptures are true, but the evidence completely destroys any alternative explanation (fraud, myth, mass-hallucination, etc.) ...  The only explanation left standing is that Jesus Christ actually did rise from the dead.  But we don't want the truth, do we?... we want a new excuse to doubt so we can go on being the authorities over our own lives.

This is a fantastic presentation by Timothy McGrew.. goes over all the little historical details that prove beyond a doubt that the Gospels were written in the time of Jesus' ministry, as well as all the subtle textual details (some of which I've provided) that show these were genuine eyewitness reports and could not possibly have been later embellished myths about Jesus or some kind of fraudulent conspiracy...

The Gospels and Acts as History


I'm considering making a new slide by slide thread on it..  though I'm understanding more and more that people do not actually care about evidence like they claim.  Because when you show them the evidence like they demanded... then they move the goalpost to something like the above poster... "If God is real, then he should perform a miracle for me now!"

... it reminds me of the mockers that watched Jesus hanging on the cross shouting "If he is the messiah let him save himself!"


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26535486 - 03/14/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don’t disagree with the data, I’ve seen it. I probably differ in the way I interpret the data at some points. I think a lot of people would, have you read Bart Ehrman?

But, you are correct, most people, everywhere and in general, do not care much for knowing the truth. They settle for feeling and acting as if they already know everything. It’s easier that way.

I am still amazed by how few of the posters here even understood WHAT case you were actually arguing. It seems they couldn’t help but to be sidetracked by assumptions they make about a god and religion they claim they don’t believe in. :shrug:

I’m not a big fan of presuppositional thinking... but, man, sometimes I think they have a point. :smile:


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535747 - 03/15/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.

Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26536687 - 03/15/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
I don’t disagree with the data, I’ve seen it. I probably differ in the way I interpret the data at some points. I think a lot of people would, have you read Bart Ehrman?




Yea, I think Timothy McGrew does a straightforward job of dismantling Bart Ehrman's arguments... and Ehrman is considered to be the best that the skeptical position has to offer.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26536817 - 03/15/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.




The Gospels of Matthew and John are most likely eyewitness reports of Matthew and John.  Mark and Luke are believed to have taken their accounts from other eyewitnesses.

The thing is though, if you've been following this thread, it doesn't even matter as much who the authors are because of the objective struture of the narratives themselves.. the interplay of details between the four Gospels are consistent with a pattern of actual multiple eyewitness testimony, and directly opposed to fraud or mythmaking.


Quote:

Babylon said:Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.




Not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the historicity of the Gospels (and Acts) can be clearly demonstrated.  Feel free to watch the Timothy McGrew presentation I posted above if you doubt this.(I really should make a separate thread on it)  The Gospel authors get numerous "hard" historical details correct that would only be available to people who were actually in those places and having those interactions at that specific time in history... and again, these are accounts from four different points of view that confirm each other in the kind of subtle and unintentional ways that only real eyewitness reporting does.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26536827 - 03/15/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

Babylon said:
I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.




The Gospels of Matthew and John are most likely eyewitness reports of Matthew and John.  Mark and Luke are believed to have taken their accounts from other eyewitnesses.

The thing is though, if you've been following this thread, it doesn't even matter as much who the authors are because of the objective struture of the narratives themselves.. the interplay of details between the four Gospels are consistent with a pattern of actual multiple eyewitness testimony, and directly opposed to fraud or mythmaking.





It matters quite a bit, an eyewitness account is considerably more accurate than a retelling of an eyewitness account.  There's also the issue of translation to be considered.  King James, who commisioned the most commonly used English translation of the bible, had clear political reasons for his translation, and he put Shakespeare, someone who had no problem embellishing historical accounts and turning them into entertainment, in charge of the project.

Quote:



Quote:

Babylon said:Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.




Not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the historicity of the Gospels (and Acts) can be clearly demonstrated.  Feel free to watch the Timothy McGrew presentation I posted above if you doubt this.(I really should make a separate thread on it)  The Gospel authors get numerous "hard" historical details correct that would only be available to people who were actually in those places and having those interactions at that specific time in history... and again, these are accounts from four different points of view that confirm each other in the kind of subtle and unintentional ways that only real eyewitness reporting does.




Those details are available to you, you were not in those places at those times.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26536877 - 03/15/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:It matters quite a bit, an eyewitness account is considerably more accurate than a retelling of an eyewitness account.




It really doesn't matter if the eyewitness himself put pen to paper or simply orally dictated it to a scribe. Otherwise there are a lot of court stenographers that are out of a job.

Quote:

Babylon said:There's also the issue of translation to be considered.  King James, who commisioned the most commonly used English translation of the bible, had clear political reasons for his translation, and he put Shakespeare, someone who had no problem embellishing historical accounts and turning them into entertainment, in charge of the project.




What is the actual argument you're making?  Shakespeare made things up so we shouldn't trust the Gospels?

You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173

Quote:

Babylon said:
Those details are available to you, you were not in those places at those times.




They didn't have wikipedia in the 1st century AD.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26536896 - 03/15/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:

You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173






I don't trust those experts methodology, they are comparing eyewitnesses who are telling the truth to folks who are coordinating their story and lying, these are not the only possibilities.  You keep insisting that there are no commonalities with folklore or mythology but if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story. The similarities with mythology (analyzed pretty heavily by the zeitgeist folks) are everywhere.  It is those similarities that have allowed me to incorporate Christianity into my own spirituality, but if I try to think of the new testament as a historical account, rather than mythology, it simply looks implausible. 

I suppose in other words, in answer to your initial question, if the gospels were proven true, in the way you are attempting to prove them, that would cause me to move further away from Christianity and keep it entirely out of my spirituality.  This is dependent on certain uses of the words prove and true.  What you seem to be attempting to prove is that the gospels are eyewitness accounts, proving that would make Christianity less appealing to me.  Proving that Christ's message in the gospels is indeed the word of God, and that Christ was indeed the messiah involves an entirely different sort of proof, and it is that that would convince me to abandon Paganism and embrace Christ as my lord and Savior, rather than as one form of the dying god, as I currently do.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26536912 - 03/15/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Hm. On your last point.

I suppose his case here has made you less interested in Christianity then?
Behold! The powers of argumentation!  :cool:

How early are you dating the earliest gospel?


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26536930 - 03/15/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173




I don't trust those experts methodology,




You don't have to trust anything.  Come up with a better explanation for the data if you have one.

Quote:

Babylon said:if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story.




No, the pattern we find in the four Gospels (of which I've provided specific examples) is exactly the opposite of what one expects in storytelling.

Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26536932 - 03/15/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

saved7 said:

You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173




I don't trust those experts methodology,




You don't have to trust anything.  Come up with a better explanation for the data if you have one.

Quote:

Babylon said:if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story.




No, the pattern we find in the four Gospels (of which I've provided specific examples) is exactly the opposite of what one expects in storytelling.

Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.




I didn't say stories made up by different people.  I said retelling of a single story told to different people.  Those two scenarios create different sorts of discrepancy


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26536943 - 03/15/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Hm. On your last point.

I suppose his case here has made you less interested in Christianity then?
Behold! The powers of argumentation!  :cool:

How early are you dating the earliest gospel?





Nah, it's pretty typical of Christians, insisting that the bible is a historical document and not accepting that makes it less credible than mythology not more.  They're trying to convert atheists, without being rigourous enough with their methods. 

The earliest gospel was written about 65 AD, so more than 30 years after Christ's death. 

I feel like saved7 and other Christians who feel that presenting the bible as a historical document makes it more convincing should read more historical documents and look at how they tend to be distorted for political reasons and the ways they tend to be inaccurate.  Just reading the local newspaper, which I know is written by honest people who I trust, and observing how wrong they get stories that I have been a personal witness to has taught me a lot about trusting historical documents.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26536992 - 03/15/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
I didn't say stories made up by different people.  I said retelling of a single story told to different people.  Those two scenarios create different sorts of discrepancy




.... which is the skeptics' position I've been addressing this entire thread...

And again, it is precisely these particular types of discrepancies (undesigned coincidences) that refute the claim of a legend or myth of Jesus embellished by different storytellers over time.  When you're ready to deal with the specific data, let me know.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26537968 - 03/16/20 06:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
The earliest gospel was written about 65 AD, so more than 30 years after Christ's death. 





Probably untrue.  That is what scholars believe, but they have no evidence for it... or I should say, their "evidence" relies on a presupposition that the gospels are false.

This is the basic reasoning:

"It was probably written c. AD 66–70, during Nero's persecution of the Christians in Rome or the Jewish revolt, as suggested by internal references to war in Judea and to persecution." - wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

Jesus, in the gospels, foretold about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. (His prediction would have been made around the year 30 AD)

Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 AD following several years of violent Jewish revolts against Rome.

Since the academic world believes that Jesus couldn't have known about the coming destruction to Jerusalem,  they are ideologically bound to push the dates of the gospels up to the time when the violence and destruction began to play out.  To do otherwise would be to consider the possibility that Jesus's prophecy about Jerusalem was fulfilled within a generation.  Yikes, we can't have that!

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

- Mark 13:1-2


Anyways, as mentioned, the specific gospel dates don't matter so much.  (They were definitely written within the lifetimes of Jesus' disciples)
What matters is that they exhibit the important characteristics of being truthful eyewitness testimonies, as has been demonstrated.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineBabylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: CMACD]
    #26538871 - 03/16/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CMACD said:
Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?




The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
    #26540259 - 03/17/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Babylon said:
Quote:

CMACD said:
Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?




The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.




Nobody is converted by an academic argument.  The academic argument shows the evidence pointing, overwhelmingly, to the truth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the gospels.  This shows it is not for a lack of evidence that we reject it (as we like to claim), but something else... ideology, or our heart...

As far as miracles being proof... proof of what?  Why couldn't you simply claim that Jesus was using demonic power like the Pharisees did?  If the scriptures are true, than God gave a lot of proof... divine miraculous interventions, yet His people rejected Him almost immediately afterwards. 

Have you ever considered the possibility that your Creator knows the condition of your heart a lot better than you do?

The way Jesus acted, actually lends a lot of weight to this idea.  He concealed his identity in riddles and parables and mysteries.  When he did perform a miracle, he commanded the witness to "tell no one"...  When his followers desired to know who he was, even then Jesus was reserved about it.. asking "Who do you say that I am?" , inviting them into the mystery of him being God in the flesh.

When Jesus referred to "ears to hear" he was saying you could have the truth presented to you, and still reject it.  The Pharisees could see a permanently crippled man rise from hid bed and walk away, and still deny him.

The evidence can lead you right up to the edge of the truth, and then you have to accept it, not with your senses, but in your heart.  Jesus is "the way" into our heart... when we accept Jesus as our Lord, we simultaneously come to the realization of just how much we've rebelled against our Creator and how desperately we need someone to save us... and that thing that once seemed really weird a kooky about Jesus "pouring out his blood" to cover our sins, suddenly becomes the most beautiful thing ever.

When the Jews demanded Jesus give him a "sign" or proof of his divine authority, he answered that no sign would be given except for the "sign of Jonah"...  The ending act of the Old Testament Book of Jonah is all about an amazing mass conversion of a non-Jewish kingdom (Nineveh)... it seems more than a coincidence that this unknown crucified criminal from the ancient middle-east quickly became the symbol of divine salvation among non-Jewish kingdoms across the entire world.  Do you really believe it's all a mere coincidence of history?


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinefeldman114
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Registered: 09/06/19
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26540279 - 03/17/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Non-Jewish kingdoms?
You went from religious babbling to bigoted rambling in one sentence.

Btw, Jesus isn’t a symbol of salvation around the world lol. Most western countries are turned off by Christianity and the rest of the world has their own religions...many of which are much older and more prevalent in those places than Christianity is in the US.

You got this way of being pompous while not directly saying anything offensive. I think it’s very non-Jewish of you.


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