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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26532782 - 03/13/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Ok. I lied. I prob won’t be back to post, though I do like the topic and enjoyed it a lot.

But..... I haven’t been high in a week, and I’m about to go get up on a bag of buds, and will most likely lose interest, or find something more interesting.... like junk food and TV and video games. lol :laugh:

I will leave you with this to consider; not knowing for certain if a thing is true, isn’t good justification for assuming that another thing is true.

Or, Just because I don’t know if this reality is an illusion or not, it is no reason to assume the dream state is, in fact, a separate reality.

Meaning, I may not be able to conclusively prove that dreaming isn’t a separate reality from this one, but, that doesn’t constitute evidence for it either. Aka, the absence of evidence is no evidence at all.

Did you have any positive evidence for the dream state being another actual reality, comparable to the one we are currently experiencing while we are typing this out, or reading it and understanding it?

Again, I’m not sure if I will care enough to post back after I get high. Just the way it goes. Sryz. :tongue2:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26533117 - 03/13/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

contrarywise,

if you always assume that "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all", is to believe that everything must have an objective cause.  if you believe everything in waking reality is objective within waking reality, then the cause can only be obtained from knowledge gained within that wake reality.  any reality that is outside of the wake reality may violate the objective causality of wake reality.

it seems like a self-perpetuating belief to stay within the paradigm of "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all" if there is a collection of causes that can violate those of wake reality, but only can begin to be understood with the non-self-fulfilling perspective that a reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer.


what kind of evidence would you need?

as you expand your awareness of reality as you smoke your buds, can you feel the shift in your thinking processes that allow you to think outside of the logic of the reality that you inhabited before you smoke the bud?

is an individuals own experience enough?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26533128 - 03/13/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button.
before that I finished a response to another post,
before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture,
before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered.
before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better,
before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink
before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash
before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee
before that I was filling the dishwasher and
before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night
before that I ... ... ...

consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces.
between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.

the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters  - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.




did you get to go rollerblading? i love rollerblading.

how did you come up with the 2-minute interval for time slices - was this supposed to be an example, or did you pick that figure based on personal experience?

you located, and sat, and discussed, and returned, and drank, and filled, and emptied...these are all physical actions that you could be witness to observing.  however you also said that you imagined, what happens to the time consistency then?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26533267 - 03/13/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You have intrigued me well, I think I will wait for rgv to respond first tho. I am very much in line with his thinking here. I think a good evidence would show a consistent pattern to this other world. Dream states change continually, meaning, we don’t return to the same “other reality” night after night. But, for the love of god, I seem to keep waking up in this one!

I will clarify a few things you said here.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
contrarywise,

if you always assume that "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all", is to believe that everything must have an objective cause.  if you believe everything in waking reality is objective within waking reality, then the cause can only be obtained from knowledge gained within that wake reality.  any reality that is outside of the wake reality may violate the objective causality of wake reality.

I am not assuming everything in waking reality is objective, and am not saying the “absence of evidence” cannot possibly  be a kind of evidence. But, I think there needs to be more to build a case, that’s why I was asking for positive evidence.

...reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer.

could you elaborate on this a bit more?

what kind of evidence would you need?

Already mentioned the consistency thing, but while typing I thought of another piece of the puzzle for me might be repeatable testability that can be communicated to others in this reality. maybe there is a test that could be done from within a dream state that, while in that dream state one could communicate to another person who is in their own dream state? But, I am not a dream expert, and maybe it would help to have a lucid dreamer weigh in.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26533410 - 03/13/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button.
before that I finished a response to another post,
before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture,
before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered.
before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better,
before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink
before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash
before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee
before that I was filling the dishwasher and
before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night
before that I ... ... ...

consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces.
between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.

the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters  - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.




did you get to go rollerblading? i love rollerblading.

how did you come up with the 2-minute interval for time slices - was this supposed to be an example, or did you pick that figure based on personal experience?

you located, and sat, and discussed, and returned, and drank, and filled, and emptied...these are all physical actions that you could be witness to observing.  however you also said that you imagined, what happens to the time consistency then?



it's an example, and 2 or 3 mins is a natural rhythm of back remembering for me.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26533474 - 03/13/20 08:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Just had my wife try this test as well. She agrees. It seems to validate the waking reality as less of an illusion than the dreaming reality.

I suggested, that she might still be, in fact, dreaming and I am a part of that “reality”, and making up some elaborate hoax to keep her asleep.

We both laughed.  :devil:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535077 - 03/14/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

are you willing to interject yourself into the experiment?

if you give me a name and a place I will try to find you in Dreamworld - send it to me privately of course if you don't feel comfortable posting publicly, it doesn't have to be your 'real' name, but it should be a name that you use to go by, and a place that you have an emotional attachment to.  if you are a daily cannabis smoker this is harder to accomplish.

reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer -

by this I mean, that an individual will interpret events within reality according to awareness and understanding of nature.  what the body can touch, smells, sees, hears, tastes is less than one millionth of reality.  for example, the mantis shrimp does not have binocular vision, but instead has trinocular vision, this allows them to see circularly polarized light.  we know that circular polarized light exists, but cannot experience it with our bare binocular human vision.  we are only conscious of the material surroundings that we are aware of.  the mind input writes the mind output that is read.

a consistent experiment that I have tested time and time again involves sleeping in a room where I have a 6500k light turned on.  when I do this I become blind in my dreams, I can feel my body and feel the dream world with my hands, but I don't have any vision.  when I don't sleep with the 6500k light on my eyeballs function in Dreamworld.  so my physical wake reality body is reading the input of the light, and this alters how the mind output is created in Dreamworld.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

it's an example, and 2 or 3 mins is a natural rhythm of back remembering for me.




that makes me wonder, if the smaller the time slice, the more articulated the memory would be?


Edited by thealienthatategod (03/14/20 03:34 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26535138 - 03/14/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

yes but  you need more time to look back through the day, sometimes i do that


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26535212 - 03/14/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

how do you make time?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26535235 - 03/14/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I usually don’t. I am horrible at scheduling.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536086 - 03/15/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how do you make time?



I do not think that I do make it.
I just use any traces of it that are lying around.

I am not really into making things up, unless they are really useful, and time is not my invention, I rely on it being there, and it is.


--------------------
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Offlinekitten6
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536172 - 03/15/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe reality is just our primary reality and dreams are also realities but we are polarised towards this reality for the time being. Maybe like our bodies being vessels (magnets) which attract soul at certain times.

Soul is the immortal part of us, the part which connects us to the places that transcend time. Or rather the part of us which is unaffected by time.

When a soul is polarised, it doesn't mean that it sticks harder to this body, it just means that for the moment that's where the soul spends the majority of time for the vessels life time like a probability distribution.  This is why most of the time your soul is here in reality but when you go off to dream, you will find yourself in all kinds of places, maybe even your past lives.

Kinda like electrons and atoms with their probability distributions. and shit like schrodingers equation and hamiltonians and that shit.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #26536252 - 03/15/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

wow, that's an interesting perspective.

i had a dream two weeks ago where someone was throwing magnets at me in the dream, and these magnets kept sticking all over me, and i was exasperated and i screamed that i wish all these magnets would just stop sticking to me, and i asked the person throwing them to please stop.  in a dream someone once told me that 'soul traps' are magnetic in nature.

after reading rgv's post i was thinking about how in this wake reality while the body appears to go through a linear time stream, as rgv pointed out in his other post - ie - from 9-9:30 i was in the living room, from 10-11 i was at the gym, but the mind doesn't follow along with you in that time stream, so even through your body was in the living room from 9-9:30 your mind could have been reliving a childhood experience, because the mind is not bound to this linear stream.  this much is obvious, but in contrast-

what's interesting in dream time is how 2 minutes can go by in wake reality but in that 2 minutes you could live 200 years in Dreamworld, and feel the passage of those 200 years.  sometimes i'll set a timer to go off on 2 minute intervals while i sleep, and see how much dream time i can get to pass in those 2 minute intervals - i am able to slip in and out of sleeping very quickly, so it does not disturb me.  it seems the deeper the dream state the slower time can be made to pass in dreamworld so more eperience can take place.

i think it's clear that the state of consciousness can both slow down and speed up time in both wake reality and sleep reality.  Time is clearly part of the illusion for both, but time is a different kind of illusion in dreamworld.

i obviously have a deep psychological fascination with time, so may be this is just my dreamtime experiences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rabbit_Project



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536331 - 03/15/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

In dream space, I sometimes become interested in the timeless unfolding of what is (like a thicket expanding and breathing) and I notice nodes which appear and then open like elbows and knees or piano hinges, and then just are abundantly integral with the matrix of freely expanding sensation and vision, unencumbered by 3-d properties, i.e. sturctures can pass through and beyond others while in 3-d they would bang and crash or squish.

I like to enter this dream space time while awake as well. This way I can engage with more than 6 impossible things before breakfast.


--------------------
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Offlinekitten6
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536383 - 03/15/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

well one time not too long ago I had probably the most immersive and crazy dream in my life. I even got knocked out in that dream and eventually woke up again into the first dream. The dream I had when I was knocked out was pretty incomprehensible but still pretty immersive.

Probably the scariest thing that happened was when a massive shower of meteorites hit and destroyed everything, and there was a massive explosions everywhere. It was pretty trippy as well I think it was as if the meteorites where sentient and higher dimensional.

It's pretty mad that this shit just goes down in our sleep and still scientists are struggling to explain why the fuck we dreaming.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6] * 2
    #26536389 - 03/15/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

There was a mention of dying in dreams earlier, what is that about?

What is the significance of that?

I’m curious, I know next to nothing about dreams.... I just enjoy having them, while I am having them.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536457 - 03/15/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

It's interesting that many dream experiences would be called symptoms of "mental illness" if one was awake.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6]
    #26536467 - 03/15/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

if science could explain why we dream, would it give us any more understanding about what we're doing when we're not dreaming?

on death, i was just curious how often other people die in their dreams, or how often they die in a wake reality and wake up in a dream that is apparently a new wake reality, if that second one sounds too strange, then just stick with the first one.

i'm still posing the original question too, why are illusions recognized as illusions in dreams, but in wake reality these illusions are not seen as illusions.  why is it so hard to believe in eyes?  if you wear glasses in wake reality do you wear glasses in your dreams?

if dreams are the opposite of possible, what gives wake reality its potency?  i've always thought it was peculiar that families don't wake up and share their dreams with each other - at least not in the culture i'm from -  i wish more people would openly and freely talk about their dreams.  are we supposed to keep them a secret? 

i have a reoccurring dream where i'm trying to turn off a 'reincarnation machine'  it looks like a space ship that's gold and gray.  it's parked in a valley on a green grass field surrounded by mountains.  there is no entrance, so I can't get in.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26536479 - 03/15/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:

. . . i've always thought it was peculiar that families don't wake up and share their dreams with each other - at least not in the culture i'm from -  i wish more people would openly and freely talk about their dreams.  are we supposed to keep them a secret? 




wouldn't that be great - to share our dreams over breakfast and coffee! How intimate.  :thumbup:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26536689 - 03/15/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

i wonder if more people shared their dreams with one another, they might see the synchronicity within that sleep reality...and it would become more real to them. 

could this cause the sleep reality to supersede this one in realness potency?


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