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Offlinethealienthatategod
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reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion?
    #26531334 - 03/12/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

while experiencing a dream it may seem just as real as 'reality'

a dream can fell like an illusion, but so can reality

from a neurological perspective, the dream is processed in a way very similar to waking reality

how is it that you can tell when you are awake and when you are asleep?

if you are "awake" and recognize the fact that you are awake, how does this differ from being "asleep" and recognizing that you are sleeping? 

is there any difference?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26531421 - 03/12/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

during my dreams I never feel like I have to figure out if this is a dream, I just deal, or have the adventure, and continue to witness.
because of that I think I know I am dreaming.
especially if I redream some edits into the scenario.

Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.

All the same, the practice of meditation is a lot like an attempt at being awake while dreaming that you already were awake.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26531445 - 03/12/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.





hey RGV,

i'm curious about consistency,

can you give me some examples of this consistency?


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26531448 - 03/12/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Ordinary reality is the better illusion.  I think due to the simple fact that it’s far more lucid than dream space.  Sometimes dreams aren’t remembered upon awakening.  I’ve never been a lucid dreamer.  That’s probably what you’re looking for, some lucid cosmonaut that considers the dream to be just as “real”.  I think it could be, but there’s a difference in the makeup of the dream compared to conventional reality regardless of how lucid one is.

On the other hand, it’s easy to consider ordinary reality to be more convincing as I am awake typing this.  Dreams just run and are assumed valid unless one is a lucid dreamer.  Seems ordinary reality is the same.  Plus, we all die and know this a temporary experience so it’s not like we know life is absolute and untouchable.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26531450 - 03/12/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Dreaming is more of an illusion. My evidence is that, when I dream, the dreams continuously change very dramatically and in unexpected ways from night to night, or even moment to moment. Whereas, reality seems to be much more consistent.

If while awake, I place a cup of water next to the bed. I have a sense of confidence that it will be there in the morning, even while I am not conscious of it. However, with a dream, almost as soon as I wake up, my consciousness and recollection of the dream is vanishing, and if I placed a cup of water on a desk inside a the dream state.... there is very little confidence that the exact same cup, or desk, or bed, or room will remain consistent night after night.

I think the consistency of our waking experience is evidence for the “reality” of it, and the inconsistency of a dream state is indicative of a lack of “reality”

And you can’t really say “what if dreaming and reality are not differentiated”, the fact that we are using different terms to define these different states, betrays that we have already recognized differences between them.

I suppose it would be helpful to define the word “reality” better, I’m not quite sure how you are using it here.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26531467 - 03/12/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

by reality i mean what the senses pick up on and are then interpreted

in that sense a dream is reality where the perceptual input to the senses is of "non-physical" origin as we understand it

and by illusion i mean being the difference between what we perceive and what we see

if reality and dreams are both jelly beans, then may be they are just two different flavors of jelly beans

in that sense both waking and dreaming can potentially give access to reality.



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OfflineBooShow
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26531492 - 03/12/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
by reality i mean what the senses pick up on and are then interpreted

in that sense a dream is reality where the perceptual input to the senses is of "non-physical" origin as we understand it

and by illusion i mean being the difference between what we perceive and what we see

if reality and dreams are both jelly beans, then may be they are just two different flavors of jelly beans

in that sense both waking and dreaming can potentially give access to reality.





This. :super:


--------------------
You are what is. That's all.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: BooShow] * 1
    #26531676 - 03/12/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

What if one is a jelly bean, and the other isn’t?

I don’t agree that the whole of reality is simply our personal sense impressions and experiences. I am of the opinion that there is an actual external world of form and structure that our senses are interacting with. This does not seem, to me, to be the case while dreaming.

In my view, you aren’t speaking of reality itself, instead, it seems to me you are referring to differing states of consciousness, and calling one of these states  “reality” and the other “dreams”.

Or, another way to say it: dream and waking states are both available within reality, but reality is not equivalent to waking or dreaming states, or any other state of consciousness.

One is a jellybean, the other is a skittle. :laugh:


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OfflineBooShow
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26531713 - 03/12/20 08:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Or, another way to say it: dream and waking states are both available within reality, but reality is not equivalent to waking or dreaming states, or any other state of consciousness.



I agree. I think both waking and dreaming are two aspects of the same reality. Two sides of the same coin. However, I don't think dreaming is separate from reality, or they're 'not as real'. I think mind and matter are two illusory aspects of reality and that reality isn't limited to either of the two.


--------------------
You are what is. That's all.


Edited by BooShow (03/12/20 08:40 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26532036 - 03/13/20 02:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

just taking a sip of water changes the state of consciousness


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26532158 - 03/13/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

A change of consciousness doesn’t constitute a change in reality itself. We might say our personal view of reality has shifted when we experience a change of consciousness. But I don’t think this means reality at large has shifted.

It does change the perspective on reality for the viewer. But, not for the scene itself.

Example: go watch someone sleep. Kinda creepy, but you might notice how your waking mind, and their sleeping mind, seem to be occupying the same relative physical space, namely, the bedroom.
Your experience and his experience of reality are totally different. Your watching a guy lay there, he thinks he is flying.

Ok...... so now here’s where it gets fucked. Hold your hand over your friends mouth and nose.......

Notice how you are able to dramatically affect your friends experience of his reality.
He won’t be able to affect your view of reality from his dream state at all.
Even if you were both asleep, meaning you are sharing the “reality”, you will find it very difficult to cause such dramatic effect while only one was asleep. The woke person has the effective power to end the dream reality of a sleeper. < -this sounds wokeAF , not meaning it that way, but I might make some bumper stickers.

The sleeper is ineffectual in ending, or even altering the state of an awake person.

I think this type of “effectiveness” in changing the conscious experience of a third party is good evidence that the waking state is primary to the dream state.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26532167 - 03/13/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Can you be sure that you killing that sleeping person whilst you're awake is not a dream?


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Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26532218 - 03/13/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
Can you be sure that you killing that sleeping person whilst you're awake is not a dream?




Lol, no, don’t kill him! I said he was your friend. It will just make him gasp and freak out a bit, and definitely will be awake and alive.

I’m not saying I am SURE of anything.

Edits: sorry had a phone call and didn’t want you to think I was advocating murder. LoL

However, going with that, I can be relatively convinced I didn’t kill my friend, when upon waking I find that he is still alive and it was an illusion. I admit, during the dream, I may not be able to tell if I had really killed him.

The inverse is, if I did kill him in reality, well, that’s it. No waking up from the illusion during this lifetime.



Edited by Shr00mEater (03/13/20 07:57 AM)


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OfflineAZZI
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26532224 - 03/13/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I typed but didn't send, that is very deep.  I also didn't point out the same you mentioned.

I like to consider these things. Waking up from this life, and so forth.

Ramana said things about it.


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🌸🌸🌸


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26532289 - 03/13/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I believe that reality is reformulated with each change of perception,

and perceptions are shifting millions of times per second.

mostly unnoticed, unless the perceiver is reformulating from a bigger picture

not two moments can possibly be the same,

unless of course all moments are just the same one moment.

so the one witnessing reality thru the eyeballs sees it as the same,

but another witness seeing reality thru a different perspective (ie the ears) catches the change.

how many times do you think your perceptions shift every second?

but if your friend is sleeping in the same room, only his body occupies that space,

is your friend just a body?

your friend is in a world hidden from your eyes. are you the arbiter of his reality because you believe that you're awake and you witness him asleep?

if you can't detect every single perceptual shift, then how can you be so sure of what is illusion and not?

and I'm confused too, I thought you murdered your friend.


how many dreams have you had where you died in your dreams?

how many times can you remember dying in this waking one?


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OfflineAZZI
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26532314 - 03/13/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Ok this time I will say something,

For a lot of reasons, ShroomE did not kill his friend.

a) it was a statement of a thought experiment.

b) it was hypothetical scenario to describe idea.

c) he wasn't talking about himself, or anything he had done

d)

(important)

He said nothing about harming anyone -

The point (of the hypothetical scenario) is obviously wake them up.

_____

Again there was no harm intended but,

All of this said,

He was not intending you wake up your friend this way.

Explaining a point, which is a really good one.

:heartpump::heartpump::heartpump:

Pay attention to details,

Don't words or anything confuse you.


--------------------
🌸🌸🌸


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: AZZI]
    #26532359 - 03/13/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

thank you for clarity, AZZI.

but again, if the waker is not aware of evry single perceptual shift,

then they cannot know every illusion,

and in that case, may be the woke person didn't end the reality of the "sleeper"

because the sleeper is dreaming from the perspective of their friend, looking at their own body

and then, it cannot be said that the sleeper cannot effect the wakers reality.

so now when the sleeper "wakes up" the waker disappears, becuase from the perspective of the sleeper, the waker was an illusion in the first place.

’ΥΠΝΟΣ.


ala HP Lovecraft: http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/hy.aspx


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: AZZI]
    #26532362 - 03/13/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Hmmmmm. I believe I am, in this reality, the arbiter of his experience. That’s how I was able to wake him and cause his “reality” to disappear.

I don’t suppose any of you have done the hotdog trick with a sleeping person? Video tape it and show him later. He will probably agree with you that it really did happen, regardless of his perception, or lack of.

In his dream reality, he will never be arbiter of my waking experience. No matter how much he wishes he won’t be able, to affect my perception of reality from within that dream state.

Is the question being posed still “which is more illusory”?

I feel like we are moving towards the question of “what is reality”, and that’s probably my fault since I picked on the definition and wish to separate reality from perception of reality.

Later, when I get a bit more time, I will do my best to post something using your definition and attempt to understand the perspective better, and possibly the original question better.

I do feel like this sounds a lot like a “brain in a vat” idea. Not a big fan, but, I will definitely try, so at least we don’t talk past each other.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26532391 - 03/13/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, so the question has changed!

So because I cannot dispel every possible perceptual error anyone ever could experience...... therefore, a dream state is equal to the waking reality?

I think, this is a bad way to draw a conclusion. Then again, I tend to think reality is an actual thing and not reformulating itself because of personal perspective.

I’m not purposely trying to be difficult. I promise. I will be back after I get done with work.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26532404 - 03/13/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.





hey RGV,

i'm curious about consistency,

can you give me some examples of this consistency?





before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button.
before that I finished a response to another post,
before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture,
before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered.
before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better,
before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink
before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash
before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee
before that I was filling the dishwasher and
before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night
before that I ... ... ...

consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces.
between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.

the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters  - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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